[BCowan]

I wanted to ask some of the great keepers on GCA about any new(er) Rye hybrids used in fairways.  Is there new strands of Rye that can be cut shorter that can give a closer tight feel bent grass offers?  I have heard that they cut down or eliminate fungi's?  If there are courses that have new(er) hybrid Rye's any courses in Midwest?  Hasn't the cost of maintaining bent fairways limited the amount of strategic designs in the US?  I love hitting irons of bent, just wondering if their was something new or an improved option?  Thanks  

[Matt Bielawa]

For what it's worth, Inverness re-seeded their fairways with PennTrio....hadn't heard of any rye options, but I wasn't close to the process and am certainly no GCSA member.

[jeffwarne]

Just what golf needs-another way to make golf harder for the masses (tighter lies), and easier for the experts (better spin).
How long before they post stimps for fairways?

Like a local pro friend always says, the MORE money you pay to belong, the LESS grass they give you to hit off

[BCowan]

Please jeff

    Rye grass would have people's ball siting up better.  Just trying to see if there is something that would make most people happy and save on maint.  It would make golfer more enjoyable having more strategic designs they have larger fairways!!!  So you are against getting more roll in the fairway???  You post is a total contradiction...

[jeffwarne]

Please jeff

    Rye grass would have people's ball siting up better.  Just trying to see if there is something that would make most people happy and save on maint.  It would make golfer more enjoyable having more strategic designs they have larger fairways!!!  So you are against getting more roll in the fairway???  You post is a total contradiction...

I neglected the emoticons-edited

Nonetheless, you asked if there was way to make rye grass shorter and tighter?
I don't know any amateurs above a 10 that hit it better off shorter and tighter grass,or any pros that don't prefer shorter and tighter but as always, I could be wrong.
I'd be a fan if it was maintained dryer and firmer than bent, regardless of height of cut

[BCowan]

I think that was a complaint with traditional Rye grass is it got too long.  It grows more upright then bent i believe.  So even if it was shorter it would sit up better.  Waiting to get more into from Keepers on here.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

It's Rye grass.
Even if a seed company has managed to improve a little on all the previous improvements, it is still rye grass.
Bent, blue, and especially fescue are all superior cool season golf turfs, IMO.

[Grant Saunders]

I don't think ryegrass is the way to go if you are looking to save on maintenance costs.

[BCowan]

What do you recommend Grant?  I recall reading Mr Doak's book that he hoped for new Buffalo grasses to come out in the future..I am going by memory here...

[Grant Saunders]

As far as cool season grasses go, Browntop (agrostis capillaris) is a great low maintenance surface with pretty good disease resistance. Unlike fescue, it is a creeping grass with good lateral spread which aids in divot and scarring recovery. It is a colonial bent and a component of the swards found on the links courses in the UK.

Does anyone know if there are courses in the US using browntop on either greens or fairways?

[BCowan]

Can Browntop handle 85-90 deg July days in summer heat?  Is it more heat tolerant than Fescue?  How about humidity tolerant? Fungi's apps needed?

[JR Potts]

After the Ryder Cup, we decided to overseed our #2 Course with rye since Course #2 served as the parking lot and we thought it would pop better and be a better short term fix than trying to reestablish the bent in the spring - knowing we were going to have a heavy season of play on it with course #1 being down for renovation.  Well, it took and the members love it as a playing surface.  Unfortunately, now the members are asking why the ball doesn't sit up as nice on the other bent grass fairways and why the grass is so tight.  You can't win...I don't envy you supers.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

BCowan,
I don't know where you are located so I'm not going to get into what grass is best for your specific site, but I have a hard time thinking of any location where Rye grass would be my first choice.
It does establish quickly, and it is dark green and stripes beautifully, if you are in to that.
But, over the long term, it is not as durable, drought tolerant, disease tolerant, and IMO nor does it provide as good a golfing surface as you can get with other turfs.
Used as an overseed it does very well as demonstrated by that little golf tournament in Augusta every spring. But take away the Bermuda base and play on it year round and I don't think you'd be happy.

[BCowan]

Don

     I actually wished Augusta wouldn't overseed, but i know what you are saying.  I have heard that MSU had some new(er) rye hybrids.  I always thought little of rye, I am just waiting to hear from other keepers.  I live in SE Michigan.  You are correct that it isn't heat tolerant.  

[Jason Thurman]

I doubt that playing on dormant grass for the entire golfing season would make Augusta's members very happy.

I've always thought rye made a fine surface in very moderate climates. It just doesn't work well with any heat at all. Aren't the fairways at Pebble Beach rye?

For most of the country it seems like a bargain turf installed by bargain courses. Lower tier products tend to see less innovation than higher tier ones, which would be my hypothesis for why we don't see new strands cultivated like we see with bents and bermudas and zoysias and even fescues. Of course, I know very little about the turfgrass industry so someone with more knowledge may correct me.

[BCowan]

Zoysia seems would be a great selection for Kentucky and southern Ohio.  I don't know the different strands and i am sure Meyer Zoysia is one of the best.  The biggest problem i thought with Zoysia is it is such an aggressive grass, hard to contain?  I heard people rave about it when it is dormant too.   Doesn't Fuzzy Zoller have a Zoysia turf farm?

[Jason Thurman]

Zoysia is a good surface. Its drawbacks are really overstated and centered around the idea that it doesn't play fast and firm.

While that's true to an extent, zoysia usually gets cut very high, as David alluded to. It forms a nice, thick mat and the ball really sits up well on it. High handicappers love it because it's like hitting off a tee. Low handicappers hate it because you can't really compress the ball in a satisfying manner and spin can get out of control. The ball almost sticks to it when it lands. High-cut zoysia is a real ground game killer.

Cut tight, zoysia can make a pretty good firm and fast surface. Zoysia makes a lot of sense throughout the transition zone, and firm and fast conditions are really hard to come by and heavily affected by weather patterns in that area anyways. When you consider the alternatives, zoysia is as easy and economical to get playing consistently firm and fast as any other turf. Bentgrass tends to stay too soggy. Bermuda is just as "sticky" as zoysia while staying in dormancy longer and making for a less acceptable surface in the winter (zoysia doesn't thin out as much as Bermuda does when it goes dormant). Rye just turns to dirt. I think when you look at the economic implications and playing qualities, zoysia is probably the best turf choice for the average course in the "transition zone" these days.

[BCowan]

Jason

    Has any courses in the Cinci area switched to Zoysia fairways?  Pinehurst does a paint/fertilizer on their fairways and doesn't over seed, kudos to them.  The application protects the dormant Bermuda from winter frost and cold weather, by insulating the grass. 

[Don_Mahaffey]

Anyone who thinks zoysia can't play fast needs to visit Austin Golf Club.
Most of the time, it's less about the grass and more about how we maintain it.

[Brent Hutto]

Don,

What are the requirements for getting a faster Zoysia playing surface? I'm guessing it might require copious material removal (dethatching, aeration, whatever else you guys do ;-) to keep that "mat" from forming. But honestly I've only ever played on it a couple times over the years and those courses had a thick, spongy turf that was hard to imagine as ever being firm or fast.

[BCowan]

Don

    I may have only played once in my life.  Do you have a hard time containing it, does it try and creep onto the Greens? 

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, Hyde Park is zoysia. They cut it tight and my round there completely changed my perspective on how good a turf it can really be. I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I also don't play much golf in Cincinnati outside my home club. Most of my away rounds come when I travel. I'd be surprised if there aren't a few more zoysia courses in the area.

It's a very popular turf in Kentucky, and that popularity is growing. Several of the higher profile public courses in the state are now converting to it. My guess is that when the golf economy in the Ohio Valley improves, many more courses will do conversions. I suspect capital currently limits the number of courses swapping out their turfgrass, but it's still growing in prevalence very quickly.

[BCowan]

Jason

   Thank you.  Doesn't Zoysia have to be or is most often sodded in golf courses.  If so that would definitely drive up the initial cost and limit the courses changing to it.  From what i hear i think it is a great grass to convert to in the long run Tenn-ohio valley. 

[Carl Johnson]

Zoysia is a good surface. Its drawbacks are really overstated and centered around the idea that it doesn't play fast and firm.

While that's true to an extent, zoysia usually gets cut very high, as David alluded to. It forms a nice, thick mat and the ball really sits up well on it. High handicappers love it because it's like hitting off a tee. Low handicappers hate it because you can't really compress the ball in a satisfying manner and spin can get out of control. The ball almost sticks to it when it lands. High-cut zoysia is a real ground game killer.

Cut tight, zoysia can make a pretty good firm and fast surface. Zoysia makes a lot of sense throughout the transition zone, and firm and fast conditions are really hard to come by and heavily affected by weather patterns in that area anyways. When you consider the alternatives, zoysia is as easy and economical to get playing consistently firm and fast as any other turf. Bentgrass tends to stay too soggy. Bermuda is just as "sticky" as zoysia while staying in dormancy longer and making for a less acceptable surface in the winter (zoysia doesn't thin out as much as Bermuda does when it goes dormant). Rye just turns to dirt. I think when you look at the economic implications and playing qualities, zoysia is probably the best turf choice for the average course in the "transition zone" these days.

Jason, I've played a couple of zoysia courses in the Charlotte area and hated them because they weren't firm and fast - in fact, soft and slow - and I'm a high handicapper!  What you are telling me is that these courses aren't cutting short enough for the conditions I'd like.  Makes sense.  I guess I'd thought they were cut the "best way."

[Brent Hutto]

Jason, I've played a couple of zoysia courses in the Charlotte area and hated them because they weren't firm and fast - in fact, soft and slow - and I'm a high handicapper!  What you are telling me is that these courses aren't cutting short enough for the conditions I'd like.  Makes sense.  I guess I'd thought they were cut the "best way."

Carl,

Was one of them Northstone? I played there a couple months back and am pretty sure it was Zoysia. Infuriating stuff, when maintained like Northstone does it.

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