[Jud_T]

Bill,

Seems to me that you should be pissed off at Digest for allowing such manipulation to go on or yourself for being associated with such a dubious enterprise rather than the Alotian Club for simply using a poorly devised process to their advantage.

[John Kavanaugh]

This hole alone with the cart path would disqualify it from a 7 or above.

If you were playing it in reverse from green to tee, I would 100% agree....

Joel is just pissed because they have an Alcatraz par 3 island green.  Arkansas ain't no San Fran.

[Sean Leary]

The hole shown looks just like #6 I think it is at Alotians neighbour Chenal CC...just saying

It looks like a lot of drop shot holes I am sure.  Its cartball, I get it. I just can't tell everything about a hole on the view from green back to the tee only.

[Nigel Islam]

Does Canyata do the same thing with raters? The course is two hours from my house, ranked in the top 40 in GD (not ranked in anything else), and I know NOTHING about it other than the story of the guy who built it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Does Canyata do the same thing with raters? The course is two hours from my house, ranked in the top 40 in GD (not ranked in anything else), and I know NOTHING about it other than the story of the guy who built it.

The first guys from Golfweek that were invited to Canyata went on the internet and told everyone who would listen that it was crap saying on every post that they were in fact raters for Golfweek.  They even went so far to insult the people of the area and employees because we, I am one myself as is the owner, are not as sophisticated as city folk.  The owner has every right to not welcome Golfweek raters after that groundwork was laid.  I have played it once with a group of Digest raters.  The course is infinitely better than the first opinions that were shouted as if they were facts.

[Nigel Islam]

Does Canyata do the same thing with raters? The course is two hours from my house, ranked in the top 40 in GD (not ranked in anything else), and I know NOTHING about it other than the story of the guy who built it.

The first guys from Golfweek that were invited to Canyata went on the internet and told everyone who would listen that it was crap saying on every post that they were in fact raters for Golfweek.  They even went so far to insult the people of the area and employees because we, I am one myself as is the owner, are not as sophisticated as city folk.  The owner has every right to not welcome Golfweek raters after that groundwork was laid.  I have played it once with a group of Digest raters.  The course is infinitely better than the first opinions that were shouted as if they were facts.

Ok that explains why it is absent from either modern list of Golf Week. I have looked at their site, and it certainly looks like it would belong in the top 200 moderns. Sounds like those raters were jealous of the owner

[SL_Solow]

Nigel;  Lets not get carried away.  I have not been to Canyata.  I missed an opportunity and hope to have a chance to get down to that area so I will reserve judgment.  I have heard mixed things and will use my own eyes.  However, if you want to draw conclusions from a website, I suspect there are several hundred courses in the top 100.  Moreover, I suspect that many of the perennial fixtures would fall out because they don't give a hoot about their website.  As for jealousy, there are a lot of newer courses built by very wealthy individuals who like golf.  Some get rated very highly exhibit A being the Bandon courses.  Others don't do so well.  Jealousy does not seem to be a factor.  Architectural tastes may.  I respect Barney's view that guests in someone's house shouldn't throw stones.  On the other hand, when one invites raters, he should expect them to rate.  The difference is whether one does so politely.  

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel;  Lets not get carried away.  I have not been to Canyata.  I missed an opportunity and hope to have a chance to get down to that area so I will reserve judgment.  I have heard mixed things and will use my own eyes.  However, if you want to draw conclusions from a website, I suspect there are several hundred courses in the top 100.  Moreover, I suspect that many of the perennial fixtures would fall out because they don't give a hoot about their website.  As for jealousy, there are a lot of newer courses built by very wealthy individuals who like golf.  Some get rated very highly exhibit A being the Bandon courses.  Others don't do so well.  Jealousy does not seem to be a factor.  Architectural tastes may.  I respect Barney's view that guests in someone's house shouldn't throw stones.  On the other hand, when one invites raters, he should expect them to rate.  The difference is whether one does so politely.  

I was kidding about the jealousy, and I should have said "it looks like it COULD belong in the top 200." What I meant was that if Golf Week raters are not welcome then that is an excellent explanation why it does not appear on their lists. I should have chosen my words more carefully.

[Mike Hendren]

This from an article on the Western Amateur preparation at The Alotian Club:

One of the concessions to the heat, Snider said, was adding another day to the tournament so golfers would only play 18 holes a day over the stroke-play portion of the event.

“You’ve also got to consider, though, that many of these players will be college golfers who are used to playing many holes in one day,” Snider said.

But are they used to the walking challenge Alotian will present?

The course will answer some of that by carting golfers between some extended and hilly areas of the course, Stephens said.

“We have some pretty tough walks from the green to the next tee,” he said.

FWIW.

[Tim Martin]

Jack Crisham mentioned that the Alotian "is at least an 8 maybe a 9."

I solicited and received feedback re: the Alotian from my peer group, those of us that have played the Golf Magazine World Top 100 list (I have played the 2001-2013 lists).  There are a few more than a dozen of us.

Panelist #1 Tom Clasby (one of my best friends & mentors, has played every golf course every ranked in the GM Top 100 since its inception):

"a 3 or 4, really don't remember any specific holes other than you could drive everywhere without much thought or consideration to strategy...non walkable routing is a deal breaker"

Panelist #2:

"I would give the Alotian a  5 if I were required to apply the Doak scale based on positive scores for conditioning, ambiance and aesthetics but negative scores for the severe elevation changes, lack of walkability, extreme separation of the holes, lack of unique holes and banks that kick golf balls back to the fairway."

Panelist #3:

"The Alotian is a 4 with its lack of rhythm created by time gaps between holes caused by the poor routing."

Panelists #4 & #5 did not want to be quoted as they do not participate on this site:

Scores of 4 and 5

Along with my Doak score of 5 (for the reasons outlined in an earlier post), the average Doak rating by a sampling of almost half of the individuals that have played the world's top 100 courses is 4.41.

Anybody wanna bet me that Doak's score in the CG will be greater than a 5?

I guess that settles it then.

[Mark Saltzman]

Bill,

How would you compare The Alotian to some of Tom Fazio's other unwalkable/difficult to walk and highly rated courses?

A few that come to mind are:

Gozzer Ranch
Mountaintop
Diamond Creek
Dallas National

[Andy Troeger]

Initial apologies to Tom Doak, because I know its like fingernails on a chalkboard when others start using the Doak scale, but I think it is a valid question.  I also know when the new confidential guide comes out it will answer the question. My suspicion is there are several that do not, but I think the 17 states I have played in all likely do. I just thought it would make for some interesting and educational banter. I guess you could throw in Canada and Australia into the mix as well.

Cheers!

Back to the original question...states I am just curious about:  New Mexico (?), Missouri (St. Louis?, Belvedere?), West Virginia (Pete Dye GC?)  

I am guessing they all do.  Wouldn't a 7 in every state be more useful? Would give you a reason to visit all the state  

Josh,
West Virginia easily has two...and probably more. Pete Dye GC and Pikewood National are both 8's in my book. Actually I'd probably give PDGC a 9 since it is in my top ten but I like Dye's stuff and I really like the setting so I'm probably a bit high. The only thing missing at Pikewood are some forward tees.

New Mexico also has two. Black Mesa is probably an 8 for me and Paa-Ko Ridge a 7.

I really enjoyed my round at The Alotian back in 2008. As with most things, the truth can be found with some middle ground between Golf Digest's #14 in the USA rating and Bill's thinking it is the worst course ever built. It is not built for walking and has lacks a true short par 4/5. From the back it plays pretty long and from the middle tees it has a large number of average length holes which doesn't help variety. For those that can get past the cartball aspect, I think The Alotian has a lot of good golf holes. I happen to like that kind of terrain, despite the severity. I'll give it a 7.

[Adam Warren]

I can see things might be different to different people especially the originator, but Valhalla, Olde Stone, Idle Hour, and maybe a Champion Trace, Old Silo or Dale Hollow would qualify in Kentucky. Those first threes are 6 or above.

[John Kirk]

OK, Andy, so you give the Alotian Club a 7.  Bill Schulz gives it a 4 or 5, and Jack Crisham gives it an 8 or 9.

But that's not the question.  The question is whether Tom Doak will give it at least a 6 for his updated Confidential Guide.  So you have to try to be Tom for this exercise, based on what you know about how he rates courses.

I think Bill Schulz makes some fine points.  If there is unnatural looking mounding framing holes, or if many of the green to tee walks are unmanageable, that will make a difference.

Since the course is ranked so highly by one of the major publications, it seems likely it will rate at least 6, which seems to be a common designation for very good, complex modern courses.

[Andy Troeger]

John,
I'm not interpreting the original question the way you are--I don't think Tom is the only one who gets a vote. I'm not interested in trying to guess what he would give The Alotian, although I won't be taking Bill's bet. I gave my opinion on the course and will leave the rest for others to discuss.

By the way, I missed one earlier. Wyoming's Shooting Star is a high 7 IMO. I'm surprised GolfWeek is the only publication to take notice so far.

[Tom_Doak]

John,
I'm not interpreting the original question the way you are--I don't think Tom is the only one who gets a vote. I'm not interested in trying to guess what he would give The Alotian, although I won't be taking Bill's bet. I gave my opinion on the course and will leave the rest for others to discuss.

Andy:

But I am the only one who gets a vote, based on the premise of this thread.

And based on that, I don't know what score Alotian would get.  I'm not even sure I want to go and see it, honestly, especially if they are as worried about their rankings and negative feedback as I've heard.  They've probably already put out a contract on Bill Schulz!

I will say that based on your ratings for the W.V. and N.M. courses listed above, a good approximation of the Doak scale rating would be your own rating minus one point ... you've got nearly all of those courses a point higher than I do.

[Nigel Islam]

John,
I'm not interpreting the original question the way you are--I don't think Tom is the only one who gets a vote. I'm not interested in trying to guess what he would give The Alotian, although I won't be taking Bill's bet. I gave my opinion on the course and will leave the rest for others to discuss.

Andy:

But I am the only one who gets a vote, based on the premise of this thread.

And based on that, I don't know what score Alotian would get.  I'm not even sure I want to go and see it, honestly, especially if they are as worried about their rankings and negative feedback as I've heard.  They've probably already put out a contract on Bill Schulz!

I will say that based on your ratings for the W.V. and N.M. courses listed above, a good approximation of the Doak scale rating would be your own rating minus one point ... you've got nearly all of those courses a point higher than I do.

Agreed, the premise of my post was based on predicting what Tom would rate a course, which is of course impossible...........Impossibly fun that is!

Now that I have channeled my inner Ted Mosby we can move on.

[John Kirk]

John,
I'm not interpreting the original question the way you are--I don't think Tom is the only one who gets a vote. I'm not interested in trying to guess what he would give The Alotian, although I won't be taking Bill's bet. I gave my opinion on the course and will leave the rest for others to discuss.

By the way, I missed one earlier. Wyoming's Shooting Star is a high 7 IMO. I'm surprised GolfWeek is the only publication to take notice so far.

Thanks Andy,

I have heard from other friends who think Shooting Star is very nice.  I have not seen it.

[Mark Saltzman]

John,
I'm not interpreting the original question the way you are--I don't think Tom is the only one who gets a vote. I'm not interested in trying to guess what he would give The Alotian, although I won't be taking Bill's bet. I gave my opinion on the course and will leave the rest for others to discuss.

By the way, I missed one earlier. Wyoming's Shooting Star is a high 7 IMO. I'm surprised GolfWeek is the only publication to take notice so far.

Thanks Andy,

I have heard from other friends who think Shooting Star is very nice.  I have not seen it.

John, I can't remember if we talked about Shooting Star, but you can add me to the list that think it's very good.

[Andy Troeger]

Tom,
No point in adding any more if I'm not really allowed a vote anyway. I'm sure I could find some courses where my score would be lower than yours--just not the ones I mentioned.

[Philip Caccamise]

I can see things might be different to different people especially the originator, but Valhalla, Olde Stone, Idle Hour, and maybe a Champion Trace, Old Silo or Dale Hollow would qualify in Kentucky. Those first threes are 6 or above.

Champion Trace is very good. I play there quite a bit, but I think it's closer to a 5 or a high 4. Just not enough standout holes to rate a 6.
Dale Hollow has a lot of fun holes, a ton of variety, but it is not walkable and VERY remote (does that affect ranking?)
Old Silo is one of my favorites to play but conditioning hurts and a few bad holes like #15 probably keeps it from higher than a 4. I'd recommend it to anyone as the best public in Central Kentucky.

I'll add Traditions GC as a possible 6. I think it's no worse than the 3rd or 4th best course in Cincinnati.

Idle Hour is most certainly a 6+.

[Jason Thurman]

Adam, I'd agree with your take on Valhalla. Tom has already said it doesn't reach 6 for him though. I'd be surprised if Olde Stone would, and I don't think Dale Hollow, Champion Trace, or Old Silo would even get serious consideration from him.

Here's the question I always have when the Doak Scale comes up though: Is Tom Doak the only person allowed to score on it, or is it simply a scoring system he originated that anyone can use? I've always thought of it as being like the Pythagorean Theorem. Pythagoras may have been the guy who proved it, but anyone can use it and I suspect even he sometimes forgot to carry the 1 and miscalculated (like Tom did on Valhalla). From past interactions with Tom, I get the idea that he would disagree and argue that he's the only person allowed to rate on the Doak Scale.

In the context of this thread, I guess if Doak doesn't score it a 6, it's not a 6, even if I would score it a 6 using the Doak Scale myself. Is that too confusing?

If I were scoring, I mostly agree with Philip. I'd rate Idle Hour a solid 7, and Valhalla a solid 6. For me, Champions, Old Silo, and Dale Hollow are all 4s. All are really fun courses that I really like, but I can't think of anything particularly significant architecturally about the 4s. Most golfers I know would really enjoy playing rounds on any of them, and I think architecture students would enjoy them but wouldn't find anything that they hadn't seen before.

[Doug Siebert]

But I am the only one who gets a vote, based on the premise of this thread.

And based on that, I don't know what score Alotian would get.  I'm not even sure I want to go and see it, honestly, especially if they are as worried about their rankings and negative feedback as I've heard.  They've probably already put out a contract on Bill Schulz!

I will say that based on your ratings for the W.V. and N.M. courses listed above, a good approximation of the Doak scale rating would be your own rating minus one point ... you've got nearly all of those courses a point higher than I do.

I would guess that most people overrate courses they like and underrate those they hate.  It is hard to be impartial.  It is impossible to be both impartial and to attempt to use someone else's personal criteria to evaluate something.  Everyone has their own criteria subconsciously coloring their evaluation, unless one is a judge or a con man in their day job I doubt they're too practiced at keeping their subconscious at bay.

The most interesting courses to me aren't the ones where people try to argue fine points over whether it is a "6" or "7", but most everyone believes it is in that range.  More interesting are courses where the argument ranges from as little as 3 to as high as 9.  That makes me wish I could play Alotian.  It is the rating equivalent of the high standard deviation hole where scores range from 3 to 7 instead of a blah hole where almost everyone scores a 4 or 5.

[Josh Tarble]

Josh,
West Virginia easily has two...and probably more. Pete Dye GC and Pikewood National are both 8's in my book. Actually I'd probably give PDGC a 9 since it is in my top ten but I like Dye's stuff and I really like the setting so I'm probably a bit high. The only thing missing at Pikewood are some forward tees.

New Mexico also has two. Black Mesa is probably an 8 for me and Paa-Ko Ridge a 7.

Thanks for the response Andy.  I assumed each of those states I listed had at least one and was pretty confident PDGC would meet the criteria but did not realize Pikewood was in WV.   

[Brad Tufts]

Hmm...I don't see Shooting Star as more than a 6...which means it's still pretty damn good.

Looking back over my visit there, the environment in which is sits is glorious, but I remember Grand Teton, not all the holes.  I felt the fairway bunkering was repetitive, especially, and there just wasn't quite enough diversity to push it to a 7.

I actually thought Huntsman Springs on the other side of the mountain was it's equal, if not slightly more unique.

As for others mentioned...I'd go 7 on Black Mesa (a couple holes are a bit too avant-garde for me), and Paa-Ko as a 6.  I know this discussion does not include decimals...but I'd have PKR closer to 7 than 6.0.

Pikewood is one of the greatest surprises I've had in recent years...was skeptical of this "unknown (to me)" being awarded Best New a few years ago, and was very impressed...and this was despite being brutalized by the course, and being stung by a pair of wasps on the second hole!  It has that special feeling that many of the greats have despite PW being new.  I'd put Pikewood and Pete Dye pretty close to equal, both 8s.

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