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JMEvensky

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2013, 04:55:41 PM »

I truly believe that the property is worthy of an 8/9


I think it's a pretty severe piece of property but I agree about the vistas.What other routing options might there have been?

The club being an 11 might be an understatement.

Richard Choi

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2013, 05:13:58 PM »
Alotian is at least an 8 maybe a 9. Some of the best greens complexes I've played. Conditioning impeccable.

If you believe impeccable conditioning merits 8 or 9 on Tom's scale, I think you are at a wrong message board...
Richard,  How many times have you played Alotian? What would you give it?

JC, I have never played Alotian, and I rather doubt I will ever play it. But not sure what that has to do with this discussion.

I have yet to see TD praise any course due to its "impeccable" conditioning. He has been a pretty vocal proponent of fast, firm, and brown instead. I doubt that Alotian and its "impeccable" conditioning would inspire Tom to rate the course any higher than otherwise.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2013, 06:08:08 PM »
JC..Perhaps I just grade a little harder.
My 9's would be Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Merion, and I cannot say that The Alotian as a course is that high.
As a club with all the frills, probably an eleven and it is a good course, but it still reminds me of several other Fazio layouts.
I truly believe that the property is worthy of an 8/9 but not with the style chosen, and I would love to have seen what a C&C , Doak and especially Mike Devries would hace done with the property.
I think Mike would have better used the spectacular undulations and vistas...but that is purely an opinion.

I'd say you a hard grader! Glad I never had you as a teacher! LOL

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2013, 06:26:50 PM »
Alotian is at least an 8 maybe a 9. Some of the best greens complexes I've played. Conditioning impeccable.

If you believe impeccable conditioning merits 8 or 9 on Tom's scale, I think you are at a wrong message board...
Richard,  How many times have you played Alotian? What would you give it?

JC, I have never played Alotian, and I rather doubt I will ever play it. But not sure what that has to do with this discussion.

I have yet to see TD praise any course due to its "impeccable" conditioning. He has been a pretty vocal proponent of fast, firm, and brown instead. I doubt that Alotian and its "impeccable" conditioning would inspire Tom to rate the course any higher than otherwise.
Richard,  I could go on and on about why I think Alotian is certainly a top 10 modern design. The site was a tough one and Fazio did a masterful job with the routing. The fairways and rough are zoysia and play very fast and firm. The course has a great variety in short/long par 4's. The par 3's require different clubs. The greens are as good as any I've played- which is now at 17 of the top 20 US just to show some perspective.  Golf Digest has it at #14 which in my opinion is about right-and for the record I'm not a GD rater. I think it's the best of the 20 or so Fazio's I've played.  Alotian is that good- Hopefully someday you will play it - it was the biggest surprise of my year which included some pretty good ones. The impeccable conditioning is at a level unto itself- think of what Augusta looks like for 1 week during the Masters- that's Alotian every day.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2013, 06:40:53 PM »
Hardscrabble would be my next choice and would be a six to me.
CCLR a slight notch below the others a 5.75 ;)

In fact here are my numbers.
Alotian 7.0..
Texarkana CC 6.65
Pleasant Valley 6.55
The Blessings 6.55
Hardscrabble 6.45

I like Hardscrabble at a 6 as well.

As for Louisiana, Oakbourne is a six without question. Squire Creek also, although I'm not as high on The Bluffs as Mike.

Matt Glore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2013, 08:33:03 PM »
Quote
As for Louisiana, Oakbourne is a six without question. Squire Creek also, although I'm not as high on The Bluffs as Mike.

Oakbourne is a great course, I forgot about it.  Only played it once, in an oilman golf scramble.  

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2013, 09:27:57 PM »
North Dakota?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2013, 10:44:01 PM »

My 9's would be Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Merion...


What are your 10s?

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2013, 10:54:06 PM »
Quote
As for Louisiana, Oakbourne is a six without question. Squire Creek also, although I'm not as high on The Bluffs as Mike.

Oakbourne is a great course, I forgot about it.  Only played it once, in an oilman golf scramble.  

If you're o/g, we should probably take this offline.

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2013, 10:55:37 PM »
North Dakota?

Red Mike (Links of ND) or Bully Pulpit would be the closest candidates. Both in the 5-6 range.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2013, 02:43:02 AM »
Nigel:

There are three states where I have played some of the contenders and have yet to award a 6:  New Hampshire, Kentucky, and Iowa.  Wakonda would be a 6 if they fixed it up, but they haven't.  Valhalla would be a 6 for most people, just not me.  I've also yet to decide whether any of the courses I played on the North Dakota Golf Trail really deserve a 6 ... they will need to catch me in a generous mood.

In Iowa, the Harvester would meet my definition of a 6 and I would be very surprised if it does not meet yours.  I can't think of anything else that would be a contender but you would find Waveland interesting.  

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2013, 05:22:42 AM »
Nigel:

There are three states where I have played some of the contenders and have yet to award a 6:  New Hampshire, Kentucky, and Iowa.  Wakonda would be a 6 if they fixed it up, but they haven't.  Valhalla would be a 6 for most people, just not me.  I've also yet to decide whether any of the courses I played on the North Dakota Golf Trail really deserve a 6 ... they will need to catch me in a generous mood.

In Iowa, the Harvester would meet my definition of a 6 and I would be very surprised if it does not meet yours.  I can't think of anything else that would be a contender but you would find Waveland interesting.  


Personally, I think Cedar Rapids Country Club was really close to The Harvester before, and has a chance to be much better depending on how the renovation goes.

Tom - if you do make plans to visit Iowa please let me know, I'd love to meet up and hear your thoughts on these courses if you have the chance.  I could also add one "off the beaten path" course if you had a bit of extra time to kill in the vicinity of CRCC and were interested in seeing a course that's not a big name but has a few really dynamite holes with a generous helping of quirk :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2013, 08:13:32 AM »
Brad--
I too have a soft spot for Hanover CC, but agree that it's not a 6.  IMHO, Bald Peak has a really great set of Ross greens, set in a mountain setting, and for that reason alone I think it qualifies as a "very good course, definitely worth a game if you're in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see." But it's not very long or demanding off the tee.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2013, 09:00:56 AM »
Jim,
I guess I am still waiting for that 10.
Although my nines come with decimals after them ;)
Those mentioned would all recieve 9.5 plus along with several others such as Sand Hills,Royal Birkdale,St Andrews so 9 istself has not been my maximum.
Just awarding that ultimate 10..I just cant pull that trigger.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2013, 09:23:59 AM »
JME
First of all I am sure Mr Fazio did what the membership required so this is not a slam on him.
I am sure they wanted a "big" course with large collective fairways and greens, to maximise the vistas hence the unwalkable routing, and a desire to make carts an integral part of the Alotian experience.
That been siad I believe somebody like a Devries..who has worked with similar terrain before which is why I chose his name.....would have a created a more intimate routing, have had less "bowl" like collective fariways and certainly had more inventive and a larger variety of gren sizes and sites.
That is what I think was missed the most, the opportunity to have created some really great smallish greens with severe drop offs and fair but penal consequences for missing.
But again obviously that is not what was requested so it is merely an observation on what could have been ratgher than a critisim of what is.
When its initial placement on GD's list came out, I was very critical of its position and in this State was very quickly called on the phone by the State Golf Associations Executive Director who was keen to wrap my knuckles for having the gaul to post anything other than a rave review.
I maintian my intial viewpoint that it is a good Fazio golf course, with marvelous services but as a golf course ALONE ,not  justifiable as a top 20 placement.
IF GD wanst to rate golf clubs, then I have little doubt it is deserving of such a high rating.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2013, 09:51:36 AM »
Jack Crisham, did you walk the Alotian Club and do you consider the routing an integral part of golf club architecture?

Of course not, nobody has ever walked the Alotian with its 16 miles of continuous cart paths with its predictable routing of elevated "scenic" tee boxes with hundred yard gaps between holes...to be honest with you it is vapid posts like yours that diminish my interest in this site.

My guess is that you're probably  50-70 yrs old & overweight & probably don't own a passport...why would someone who is interested in worldwide golf architecture listen to your views?

Your comment about the Alotian being firm & fast is absolutely not true, unless your home course is located in a swamp.  Your comment that the greens are the best you have every played seems ignorant in that all the greens are virtually the same size, 36-38 yard deep cookie cutter putting surfaces.  Your comment about the variety at the Alotian reflects your preference for Fazio's rigidly unimaginative formulaic balance between each nine: 1 short par 4, 2 medium par 4s & 2 long par 4s on each nine.  Have you ever played the Machrie or Paraparamu Beach or the Addington or St Andrews Beach or Carne or Kawana, courses with actual variety?  Name one other "great" golf course in the world that has artificially bowled in aesthetically unattractive manufactured fairways to flatter the self indulgent cartballer like you despite its significant additional maintenance costs that damage the game of golf?

The Alotian, if you can past the unnecessary exemplary service standards that cater to the pompous that require "all the frills", is no better than a 5 on the Doak scale.  It is the poster boy for everything  that went wrong in American golf, a monumental piece of self absorbed excess that reflects the bankrupt times of its origins.

The Alotian proclaims that it is intended to capture the spirit of Augusta National...as someone who has played more than a dozen rounds at Augusta, the Alotian fails to capture the most important simple charm of Augusta, its magical easily walkable routing on a comparably hilly site.

Realize that this post probably seems harsh but I'm just being honest here.

Peace.

Just because Jack doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he is wrong and you are right.  And your assumptions on him are way, way off, as he is thin and very well travelled. Posts like yours remind me how many self important arrogant people there are on this site that look at golf through only one vapid lens and how much they miss out on in actually playing golf rather than trying to impress others by bloviating about their club access achievements.

Sorry to be so harsh but I'm just being honest here.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2013, 10:13:39 AM »
JME
First of all I am sure Mr Fazio did what the membership required so this is not a slam on him.
I am sure they wanted a "big" course with large collective fairways and greens, to maximise the vistas hence the unwalkable routing, and a desire to make carts an integral part of the Alotian experience.
That been siad I believe somebody like a Devries..who has worked with similar terrain before which is why I chose his name.....would have a created a more intimate routing, have had less "bowl" like collective fariways and certainly had more inventive and a larger variety of gren sizes and sites.
That is what I think was missed the most, the opportunity to have created some really great smallish greens with severe drop offs and fair but penal consequences for missing.
But again obviously that is not what was requested so it is merely an observation on what could have been ratgher than a critisim of what is.
When its initial placement on GD's list came out, I was very critical of its position and in this State was very quickly called on the phone by the State Golf Associations Executive Director who was keen to wrap my knuckles for having the gaul to post anything other than a rave review.
I maintian my intial viewpoint that it is a good Fazio golf course, with marvelous services but as a golf course ALONE ,not  justifiable as a top 20 placement.
IF GD wanst to rate golf clubs, then I have little doubt it is deserving of such a high rating.

I don't disagree with any of this--except the parts where you used the plural of member ;D.

I,too,would be curious to see what kind of golf course could have been designed there by an architect with a different philosophy.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2013, 10:43:13 AM »
I was trying to be politically correct and not putting all the pressure on one gentleman ;)
But of course you are correct..what the "boss" wanted would indeed be more accurate.
It is a wonderful experience and one of my best friends is a member there, not sure if I will ever be able to go there with him, so any comments are purely the opinion of a golf nut who just knows what he likes!!!

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2013, 01:35:06 PM »
This hole alone with the cart path would disqualify it from a 7 or above.


Joel_Stewart

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2013, 01:37:51 PM »
Sean Leary-Thank you for responding on behalf of Jack, are you his big brother?

Let me break down the Alotian's Golf Digest #14 ranking, ok?

As the "premiere" course in a relatively small state the Alotian already had several GD panelists when it opened.  The club very cleverly had their GD panelists invite other hand picked panelists, usually from the South, overweight, not well traveled guys who think Old Waverly & Shoal Creek are 9s on the Doak scale, which resulted in the Alotian catipulting into a lofty 1st time ranking on the GD US Top 100 list.

I'm told that Alotian is not allowing Golf Magazine panelists to play.  They failed to rank it in the top 100 and pissed a few people off. 

It shows the difference between Golf and Golf Digest.

Jim Sherma

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2013, 01:41:46 PM »
This whole series of posts vis a vis the Alotian's ranking or lack thereof is somewhat sad and pathetic.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2013, 01:55:18 PM »
This whole series of posts vis a vis the Alotian's ranking or lack thereof is somewhat sad and pathetic.

Actually this is one of the few times we hear the truth.  Let me play or I will hate you is a common theme that is often implied but rarely stated out loud.

I love the rumors on who gets to play and who doesn't.  We went through the same thing with Friars Head except the believers were the chosen ones.  Remember when Tommy was vetting panelists?

The truth of the matter is that 90% of the raters for Golf Magazine don't need to mention that they are raters to play a course.  It doesn't go, Hello, this is Pete Dye, I'm a rater for Golf Magazine can I stop buy for a tour of your course?  

Josh Tarble

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2013, 02:03:47 PM »
Initial apologies to Tom Doak, because I know its like fingernails on a chalkboard when others start using the Doak scale, but I think it is a valid question.  I also know when the new confidential guide comes out it will answer the question. My suspicion is there are several that do not, but I think the 17 states I have played in all likely do. I just thought it would make for some interesting and educational banter. I guess you could throw in Canada and Australia into the mix as well.

Cheers!

Back to the original question...states I am just curious about:  New Mexico (?), Missouri (St. Louis?, Belvedere?), West Virginia (Pete Dye GC?)  

I am guessing they all do.  Wouldn't a 7 in every state be more useful? Would give you a reason to visit all the state  ;D

Sean Leary

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2013, 02:24:15 PM »
This hole alone with the cart path would disqualify it from a 7 or above.



If you were playing it in reverse from green to tee, I would 100% agree....

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Does every state now have a Doak 6 or higher?
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2013, 02:26:52 PM »
The hole shown looks just like #6 I think it is at Alotians neighbour Chenal CC...just saying ;D