[John Kavanaugh]

I am one of the youngest baby boomers still living and golfing and I will be 54 in January.  I've got 40 years of dues left in me but will need a few concessions that I hear time after time on this site are a frivolous waste for the pure golfer. I'm gonna need a cart, a nice place to eat and a great pro to give my grand kids lessons and maybe just maybe a nice comfortable chair in a warm clubhouse when the course is closed for winter. I've been a benefactor my entire golfing life from the dues paid by these forgotten old men. Please let me be one too by paying for a couple of things you just might not need.  

[John Kavanaugh]

The double strapped bag has created a forced upright posture that requires a pomposity of stride associated with any well known elitist stereotype. There is really no debate.

   I have a double strapped ping bag L-8, so i am an elitist???  What planet are you from?

By the way jKava my parents are both in there mid 60's (baby boomers), and they both walk with trolleys.  My father caddied for my mother, and that is how they met at the same club they are members now.  My mom plays 80 rounds a year in northern climates and uses a motorized trolley.  Most of the couples 50+ and over use trolley's and walk.  My father has said that if they charged a trail fee or banned walking they would lose 50% of their membership.  My parents would quit and my mother has been out their for 50+ years.  There is a huge assault on walking from ''revenue'' only outlook.  How much revenue would their be at some private clubs if walking was banned???  Luckily you aren't on the board their, because they wouldn't have 90%+ numbers.  None of us are advocating to ban carts.  The clubs members in their elder years take carts, the disturbing thing i see, is people who are young choosing to take carts in their 30's who play at private walking courses.  To each is own, just think we have lost unwritten traditions in golf.  

There has never been a single serious post on this site calling for the ban of walking. Many dream of a day without carts.

You yourself just illustrated the fragile nature of the baby boomer member and the devastating effect on a club if they quit.  Thanks.

[BCowan]

Jkava

   You just have summed up a Golf Club.  That's all i need.  So do you want a clubhouse open on a wed night in mid December if 3 people are in the room?  If the room is comfortable, great beer selection, and good burger I'm there.  I think more people would be too.  Don't you think it is wise to listen or get input from younger members as to what they are looking for?  Do you like paying assessments if a club is 50-65% filled? No one is taking your cart away.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Jkava

    Japan has been doing the same Keynesian plan you most likely support.  It doesn't work.  Japan doesn't have the land to make golf affordable, you have to compare apples to apples.  

Please give me an example of this affordable land. We just went through a thread about a 52 acre 9 holer that thinks at $5 million the government is stealing their course. There are over 1000 18 hole courses in this country that can be bought for under a million dollars because their is no profit at even a zero cost basis. The golf course has actually devalued the land.

[BCowan]

There has never been a single serious post on this site calling for the ban of walking. Many dream of a day without carts.

You yourself just illustrated the fragile nature of the baby boomer member and the devastating effect on a club if they quit.  Thanks.

    The baby boomers would quit for the opposite reasons on which you stated, because they want to walk and some moron says we need more revenue so you have to take a cart or ''trail fee''.  No one here is talking about banning walking, go play upscale public or try to carry at a club with a caddy program that is 60% full?  That is where the assault on walking is, not here.  I dream of a day like it used to be, younger people walked out of respect for the game and enjoyment (never coercion) and elderly and people with disabilities walked.  

[BCowan]

Please give me an example of this affordable land. We just went through a thread about a 52 acre 9 holer that thinks at $5 million the government is stealing their course. There are over 1000 18 hole courses in this country that can be bought for under a million dollars because their is no profit at even a zero cost basis. The golf course has actually devalued the land.

   Land is expansive due to a weak dollar, ethanol subsidies, and location location location.  1000 courses where?  I have looked...  Golf courses add 10k-30k a house sold on a golf course.  Obviously when you have artificially low interest rates and ADJ rate mortgages you create a bubble and golf housing communities.  I think many of the courses would be wise to convert to 9 hole or 18 hole par 3 and sell more housing lots in this new bubble.  Golf course seldom devalue the land, i don't buy it.  

Land maybe going down in your neck of the woods assuming you live in NJ and your harsh business climate.  Hey i am from Ohio i know

[Jason Thurman]

You know your literary tastes suck when "My dad said..." is the most factually specific argument you've ever heard from your new favorite author. There's a good chance my English degrees get repossessed if I keep hanging out on threads like this, but I just can't help it. This must be what 14 year old girls feel like when they read "The Hunger Games."

We've gotten a long way from the original post. To address that innocent beginning:

We speak of trends and styles and where golf is going.  
Think about the golf car.  Would it have been a trend if  Bobby Jones had not needed one around Augusta?

Sure. Americans love motors.

Would it have caught on if it had been developed anywhere else than Augusta Ga and promoted throughout golf via the prominent people wanting them at their clubs? ( You know sort of like George Fazio at Pine Valley spreading golf design. )

It would've caught on eventually. In America, any machine that replaces workers while cutting costs and making sitting and drinking easier will eventually catch on.

Would desert golf ever have existed?

Not sure.

Or mountain golf other than high valley courses?

I can think of several mountainous courses that would be completely impractical without carts. They're largely impractical now, but a lot of people still enjoy them.

And lastly, would the golf RE boom ever have taken place without it?

Probably, but with more contiguous course tracts rather than routings that move between houses regularly on green-to-tee transitions.

In theory it could be said that the golf car was the biggest trend to ever hit golf design. And it allowed for courses to be placed where they would have never been considered?  And IMHO, as much as well enjoy the walk, golf would be much smaller today without it.

Agreed. I suspect the cart might be both the best and worst thing ever to happen to the game.

[BCowan]

Mr Cronan

   How did you know i helped my parents clean their basement today?  No, i live with a beautiful woman.  Do you have anything to add about golf cars?  Or do you scream ''I have nothing to say''!

[Tim Martin]

Please give me an example of this affordable land. We just went through a thread about a 52 acre 9 holer that thinks at $5 million the government is stealing their course. There are over 1000 18 hole courses in this country that can be bought for under a million dollars because their is no profit at even a zero cost basis. The golf course has actually devalued the land.

   Land is expansive due to a weak dollar, ethanol subsidies, and location location location.  1000 courses where?  I have looked...  Golf courses add 10k-30k a house sold on a golf course.  Obviously when you have artificially low interest rates and ADJ rate mortgages you create a bubble and golf housing communities.  I think many of the courses would be wise to convert to 9 hole or 18 hole par 3 and sell more housing lots in this new bubble.  Golf course seldom devalue the land, i don't buy it.  

Land maybe going down in your neck of the woods assuming you live in NJ and your harsh business climate.  Hey i am from Ohio i know

BCowan-There isn't any land depreciating in NJ. Ever been out of  the Midwest?

[BCowan]

MAYBE depreciating in NJ (reread moron)

Yeah i have been out of the Midwest.  I try to avoid places that are filled with people like yourself.

Mr Cronon

    I can see you yelling at kids to get off your lawn.  I live in a different state then my rents...  You keep screaming "I have nothing to say"...

[BCowan]

Nope, only one from my family living in Michigan...  Got any more useless posts?  Are you living in a retirement home and mad at the world?

[Tim Martin]

MAYBE depreciating in NJ (reread moron)

Yeah i have been out of the Midwest.  I try to avoid places that are filled with people like yourself.

Mr Cronon

    I can see you yelling at kids to get off your lawn.  I live in a different state then my rents...  You keep screaming "I have nothing to say"...

Uncle.

Time to raise the white flag. We give!!!!!!!!

[Paul Gray]

A slighlty different perspective:

After reviewing this thread with increasing bewilderment I've come to a rather surprising conclusion....keep the carts for all and sundry.

Not exactly renowed for right wing thinking, I've nonetheless concluded that there are some Darwinian benefits to be had here for our every expanding world population. If golfers of a certain age that genuinely need a cart to get some little exercise continue to take carts they will extend their lifespan. If conversely the obess and lazy continue to take carts they will shorten their lifespan. Win win.  

Perhaps when those obesity levels reach 90% or so in the land of the free the penny will actually drop. I've always fervently argued that golf is a real sport but driving around a field in a miniature milk float whilst gobbling burger, fries and beer raises a fairly large question mark.

[John Kavanaugh]

Paul,

You can play golf well when you are old, you can play golf well when you are obese, you can not play golf well when you are both old and obese. You will be happy to know that this has been my motivation to successfully lose weight. Even cart golf motivates a healthier lifestyle without providing the burn.

[Brent Hutto]

There are billboards along the highway between my home and golf course advertising a golf/residential development out in the same part of town as my club. One of the billboards touts it as an "Active Lifestyle Community" with the photograph being of a late-60's husband and wife couple sitting, smiling in a golf cart.

It's a telling commentary on our current culture than "golf cart" is an instantly recognizable signifier that most people will associate with an "Active Lifestyle". Then again, given that the course has recently implementing a policy of not allowing walking I guess sitting your ass in a gas-powered cart is as "Active" as your "Lifestyle" is going to get there unless you give up golf and take to walking for exercise away from the course.

[Jason Thurman]

There are plenty of people who scoff at the idea of walking a golf course as part of an "active lifestyle" too. My wife is undefeated as an adult in middle-distance races in our city. She's not exactly impressed that I take a 6500 yard stroll once in a while. Half of the health battle is just getting outside and on your feet in the first place. The fat guys you see in carts aren't fat because they take carts. Their little round of cart golf is more likely one of the few things in their life that keeps them from getting even fatter.

If everyone over 65 in the US played one more round of golf per week, even in a cart, we'd all see our health insurance premiums fall. Seniors are old, achy, tired, and not as strong as they used to be. Even the great Silky Johnson wouldn't hate on an old couple for taking a cart while they go out and play. The "Cart Golfers Suck" crowd likes to assert that the choice is between walking and riding. For the clientele that lives in Active Lifestyle Communities, the choice is more likely between riding and sitting at home and waiting to die.

[John Kavanaugh]

Or you can go to an afternoon matinee, sit in the dark eating popcorn, and if you are lucky, see what breasts use to look like.  Please note that the billboard appeals to women.  Sitting happily with their husband doing any activity if a far cry from the previous 30 years of marriage.  You got to sell the wife to close a deal on this bogus active lifestyle utopia.

[Brent Hutto]

Half of the health battle is just getting outside and on your feet in the first place. The fat guys you see in carts aren't fat because they take carts. Their little round of cart golf is more likely one of the few things in their life that keeps them from getting even fatter.

If they are at one of the majority of courses that allow them to drive the cart right to their ball in the fairway and to park it within 25-30 paces of tees and greens, then in all honesty playing golf isn't doing jack shit to help them manage their weight. They may enjoy the fresh air, socializing and the pleasure of hitting golf shots. But they are not significantly modifying their energy expenditure, metabolism and muscle tone. They would get more weight management benefit from a moderate-pace 30 minute daily stroll around the block than from 5+ hours of cart golf IF THEY ARE DRIVING DIRECTLY TO THEIR BALL.

If everyone over 65 in the US played one more round of golf per week, even in a cart, we'd all see our health insurance premiums fall. Seniors are old, achy, tired, and not as strong as they used to be.

I wish it were true but it's not. Unless you give a bunch of credit to the relaxation and social benefits of joining in a game of golf, the health benefits from a totally cart-bound round of golf (which is what I observe as the dominant way to use golf carts at the courses I play) are minimal. Fun? I'd think so. Better for you than sitting home watching golf on TV? Probably so, on balance. A meaningful component of an Active Lifestyle that meaningfully prolongs healthy lifespan and ability to function well physically at an advance age? Almost certainly too little to do much good.

Even the great Silky Johnson wouldn't hate on an old couple for taking a cart while they go out and play. The "Cart Golfers Suck" crowd likes to assert that the choice is between walking and riding. For the clientele that lives in Active Lifestyle Communities, the choice is more likely between riding and sitting at home and waiting to die.

I don't begrudge sharing the course with someone in a cart. If that's how they enjoy the game, then that's plenty reason to do it. But calling the cart-based activity I've observed on most golf courses an "Active Lifestyle" is bollocks, a sales pitch that is disingenuous and cynically motivated.

[BCowan]

Brent

    I agree with Jason, getting retired people to play golf in a cart is a good thing!  It is nice to see retired people in my neck of the woods push themselves and walk with a trolley.  That is great and gives me hope that i can do the same thing when i am 65+.  Don't criticize people 60+ for taking a cart, that the main purpose of them to extend people's ability to play golf in their later years.  People playing golf in a cart in their later years is much more active than sitting in a house.  What i find disturbing is people 20-40 years of age riding!  I am not advocating a ban for that age, it is just an unwritten rule IMO.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I work out to play golf.  I don't golf to workout.  This is how being able to play cart golf has improved my fitness.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm all for having more people come out to the golf course and I have no stake in their choice of what form of the game to play other than knowing that my days of being allowed, as a walker, to play the game in my home town are probably numbered. But when that happens I'll do something else regularly and save golf for my yearly vacations in the UK.

But what I'm dead set against is the selling of this nostrum that driving your cart to your ball, hopping out and hacking at it with a golf club then speeding off to your cart partners ball is magically generating some health benefits. You're accumulating a half-hour or so of walking (in very small, widely-spacing increments) as well as a good bit of standing around on the putting greens. Any health benefits from that are minimal and the benefit from that expensive and time-consuming activity as compared to simply taking a 30-minute walk is non-existent.

So play golf with or without a cart as much as you like. It's a fun game and I'm as addicted to it as anyone. But don't take it up as an Active Lifestyle way to better long-term health unless you're planning on forgoing the golf cart. It does no good to sell people a bill of goods when it comes to managing their own health risks and long-term quality of life expectancy.

[Jason Thurman]

Brent, do you have a source for any of your claims? You don't need to cite it or anything, but just be honest. Are you going with your intuition or real research?

The average cart golfer burns almost 1000 calories in a round. Research also shows that chronic disease risks go down for people over 50 who burn over 2500 calories a week above BMR. A single round of golf in a cart gets them 40% of the way there. Ignoring the social and relaxation benefits of a game of golf is also completely ignorant, as is simply ignoring the affect of outdoor air and sunshine. Harvard studies have found that mere natural light speeds up the body's healing processes and reduces stress. People who simply go outside and just sit on their ass take fewer pain medications than people who stay inside. Multiple studies now have found that golfers live longer than non golfers by almost five years, with no specification about cart preference. Chronic disease management and quality improvement is what I do for a living. I actually do know what I'm talking about on this subject.

I agree that it sucks if such a community bans walking. But I also think the proliferation of courses that actively BAN walking has been greatly exaggerated on this site. They comprise less than one percent of courses I've played, and I don't actively avoid them the way that some do. I've played tons of courses that charge a mandatory cart fee whether you take one or not, but very few that won't let you walk at all. I'd love to see some real numbers on the percentage of courses that have literally banned walking.

[BCowan]

30-minute walk is non-existent.

    Brent, i don't know if you have looked around but America isn't exactly a fit country (excluding Denver and some other areas).  You are presuming that the person would walk 30 mins if they didn't play golf.  Have you been to the Villages?  I have visited, and i get beat in Pickleball by guys that are in their 70's.  They advertise active life style, and there are very active people there and very lazy ones that like the downtown square, the area, and weather.  Just standing on a green and walking from your cart to a tee box is a lot of exercise for most retired  Americans.  I think you are worried about them banning walking at your club, due to the "Revenue" argument, I am not sure?  Retirement communities are the last thing i'd focus on as in priority of improving Golf in the States.  

  

[John Kavanaugh]

An odd socioeconomic trend concerning fitness, age and golf is that men who retire with enough money to play golf are not married to fat women.  So there you have half the battle and the key is to find an excuse for a man to become more fit.  He will have two motivations and only one involves keeping the current wife.  Getting together with your wife who has busted her ass at the gym to look good at 60 on the golf course, in a cart, is a great first step towards an active lifestyle.  As the retired man begins to play more and more golf he soon sees the benefits of stretching, strength and cardio.  Before you know it you have a couple with a common interest in fitness and each other.

[Brent Hutto]

Jason,

I'm not buying that the guys I observe playing in carts at the courses I frequent are coming anywhere remotely near 1,000kcals above basal metabolism during their round. Don't know where that number comes from (the Compendium maybe?) but I do know what 1,000kcals of light activity looks like. And it ain't what these guys are engaging in walking six steps from the seat in the cart to the golf ball.

I'm talking about two guys or a married couple sharing a cart in which the one in the passenger seat will literally not walk even 20 yards to their ball while the driver is standing by his ball preparing to hit his shot. The passenger waits for the driver to clamber in and drive the cart to again literally within a couple paces of the ball.

Hell I see twosomes in carts where they drive around behind the green to drop off the guy whose ball is on the back of the green, then the guy driving the cart backtracks the 50 feet to the nearest point to his ball in the bunker. A lot of "cart golf" is clearly being pursued in a way that absolutely minimizes the total amount of exertion to a ridiculous manner.

Now if you're talking Cart Paths Only and trekking three or four miles total over the course of a round back and forth to a path located on the far side of a bunch of mounds, well I'm not sure I buy the 1,000kcals but it seems possible. Driving straight to the ball just doesn't generate any significant number of steps and the intensity is vanishingly low even as the duration is only a few seconds at a time.

BCowan,

Of course not many people are walking 30 minutes a day. We live in a nation of sedentary lardasses. And again I have no objection to a sedentary lardass riding in a golf cart to his heart's content. I'm simply pointing out the level of activity that, if pursued regularly over the long term, will have proven health benefits. And the drive-straight-to-the-ball game of golf is much less beneficial than that simple 30-minute walk.

Look, this stuff isn't homeopathic. By some abstract calculus a totally sedentary person would benefit from walking to the mailbox and back each day instead of reaching out their car window to gather the mail while sitting in their car. But in reality, you just can't accumulate enough ten-second low intensity micro doses of physical activity to add up to an Active Lifestyle.

I've seen metabolic cart data from morbidly obese, totally sedentary individuals who literally work up a sweat and breathe hard walking from one end of their house to the other. For those people, even little teensy doses of doing something beside sitting on the couch waiting to die can make a difference. But on a population basis, encouraging retirement-age couples to ride around in a golf cart because supposedly they'll lose weight and build strength and live longer and feel better is pretty half-assed advice. Better than being on the couch? Probably. A thousand calories a round burned and a long-term improvement in cardiovascular fitness? No, that takes a different kind of physical activity than what I see on the golf course every day from cart riders.

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