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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
The golf car......
« on: December 08, 2013, 10:38:05 PM »
We speak of trends and styles and where golf is going.  
Think about the golf car.  Would it have been a trend if  Bobby Jones had not needed one around Augusta?  Would it have caught on if it had been developed anywhere else than Augusta Ga and promoted throughout golf via the prominent people wanting them at their clubs? ( You know sort of like George Fazio at Pine Valley spreading golf design. ;D)  Would desert golf ever have existed?  Or mountain golf other than high valley courses?  And lastly, would the golf RE boom ever have taken place without it?  
In theory it could be said that the golf car was the biggest trend to ever hit golf design. And it allowed for courses to be placed where they would have never been considered?  And IMHO, as much as well enjoy the walk, golf would be much smaller today without it.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: The golf car......
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 10:49:44 PM »
Great post and insight

    It's funny i see a lot 50+ year old walking and 35 and younger in carts.  It has definitely increased demand big time, but i don't think it has done well for our culture.  I have biased opinion organizing walking events.  Now a good portion of modern courses do not allow walking!!!  I think you are right it is definitely the biggest trend...Archs and keepers have benefited big time

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 10:52:20 PM »
I forgot to mention the large amount of revenue it produces for clubs.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 11:04:26 PM »
There's no doubt that golf carts have had a huge impact on the game. Certainly they have contributed to the design of courses on terrain that may not be conducive to walking, or to designs that themselves are not conducive to walking. That's perhaps a negative impact in some ways. But on the other hand, I know people who would not be playing the game, or even able to play, without the golf cart.


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2013, 11:07:21 PM »
Mike Young -

In addition to seeing Bobby Jones in a golf cart, I am guessing seeing President Eisenhower in a golf cart in the 1950's (and maybe Bob Hope as well) legitimized cart usage to the U.S.

DT

Jeff Blume

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2013, 11:36:39 PM »
According to locals here, it is a little known fact that the golf cart was originally invented at the old Houston Country Club (now Gus Wortham Golf Course).  Wortham is the oldest 18 hole course in Texas and is now run by the City of Houston as a municipal facility.  

I guess our heat and humidity in the summer was too much for people even in the old days ;D.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2013, 03:47:59 AM »
Mike:

How many reasonable courses can you think of which were built on land that was really too hilly to walk?

We all know that the golf cart was really designed by a bunch of guys from the South who couldn't play golf in the oppressive humidity.  Jeff confirms as much.  And we also know that it was popularized by a few golf professionals who owned the cart concession for themselves, and wanted to double their own incomes -- rather than to promote the game on difficult terrain.

I agree with you it has had a huge impact.  For better or worse.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 08:56:38 AM »
Jeff,
I did not know it orginated in Houston.  Did he have an Augusta contact or was he a member there?  

Tom,
I definitely agree that it was originally marketed as an income source for golf professionals when they were still owning shops and golf cars.

When you mention reasonable courses, the key word is reasonable.  If it could be a reasonable walk then it could probably hold a reasonable course, so probably not many.  It definitely took away routing talents for GCA's and allowed for some courses with reasonable holes to be built on land that could not have transitioned from green to next tee otherwise.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 09:08:02 AM »
A LETTER TO ME FROM MELVYN

Hi Mike
 
Just read your post on GCA.com ‘The Golf Car….’ Well you do not expect me to pass on that issue, but please read on as I have tried to be constructive in dismantling the premiss that the cart is the savour of the modern game, a passport to new areas environments, it’s not as many a Scotsman will tell you of the sites overseas that their great, great, great great grandfathers played even before England started to get the bug to try golf. 
 
The following is my reply
 
The humble cart is not the issue, yes it creates hard wear and tear upon the course more so the heaver it is and the wilder it is driven. However, as I have said so many times before it has a place for those suffering from age and ill health.
 
The introduction of the cart has had no real implication as to where the game is played, history proves that beyond doubt. Golf was played in so many environments, prior to the invention of the internal combustion engine or for that matter the electric motor, places like India, Africa South, America, North America, Asia and Australia. On coastal, inland, high and desert courses where Greens were just sands and Tees compacted termite mounds with in places high humidity, baking sun in others through to jungle and grass land, all offering up a simple but very serious physical challenge not experienced by many who have played The Old Course at St Andrews.
 
My objection to the cart is based upon the actual player being unwilling to commit to the game of golf – that he/she refuses to play the game of golf like all those before them. In truth questioning the fact, are they really good enough to actually rise to the challenge of what golf is a ‘Walking & Thinking Game’. Clearly they are not or more appropriately just totally unwilling to enter into the game, the spirit of the game preferring not to commit to many aspects of the game of golf, yet still insist that they are playing Golf.
 
No I am afraid the cart has contributed very little to the game of golf – it was not responsible for different locations or the playability of those areas, what it has done is attract the less committed and allowed them to boast to the world that they are playing golf yet refuse to rise to the challenge of playing golf. Those without age or medical conditions are a disgrace and tarnish the good name of golfer and courses alike – they show no backbone to engage with the game of golf, force walkers to ride or seek to feel even better by having no walking courses. These are quite simply lazy and inconsiderate people who make questionable claims regards being golfers and brings into question just how accurate are their scores compared to genuine walking golfers who suffer the fatigue of the course and the weather.
 
As for revenue, is that really a justifiable excuse to be lazy and the refusal to commit to the game let alone the course? Would golf have ‘boomed’ as it did – well again let’ talk facts not opinions, by first noting the date of the worldwide spread of golf from the last decade of the 19th and into the first couple in the 20th Century compared to the time carts first surfaced in the mid 1930 being withdrawn due to lack of interest in riding then reintroduced in more volume in the 1950s.  I fear the facts show the lack of commitment by many in the new world after WW2.
 
The humble cart has not given golf a new dawn, but it has most certainly deflected the game and worst still GCA into wasteful scenarios of catering for the cart when both time and money would be more affective if concentrated on the course for real committed golfers.
 
I might be seen as the same old story but it’s not, many in the past having they said they got it never did and the real cost has been seen in the quality of golf courses since the end of WW2.
 
Golf’s Govern Bodies have allowed a virus to infect not just the game but worst still how many think of the game and it does not just rest with the humble cart but delves deeper into uncontrolled technology and aids that apparently seem to not just assist players but actually help them in preference of the development skill.
 
Why do Walkers have to abandon Walking  and ride, why will their friends not abandon the cart and walk – why is it always a one way track, perhaps again we are seeing the lack of commitment not just to the game but their friend coming to the surface.
 
However until you face the facts, the game continues to grow weaker – a good enough reason I believe to be repetitive on just how serious these issues are for the survival of the game we still (to a point) know as the Game of Golf.
 
I shall leave it to you if you want to post the above comment onto GCA.com as a response to your topic or just ignore it as yet another rant from someone who cares about the game and how it is played in the hope of retaining some semblance of the game for the 22nd Century Players – golfers may by then not be the right description.
 
Warm  regards
 
Melvyn
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: The golf car......
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 09:19:54 AM »
Mike - I think you're right, and, I don't mind carts and use them on occassion, but just to say:

"Reality television" wouldn't have come about if it weren't for some smart producer realizing that he could design a business model and a television product whereby he'd never have to pay actors any money (or stars big money) and instead have an ever changing cast of faceless and talentless amateur nobodies who would never threaten the business model (by becoming stars) because the design of the program itself called for new and uknown faces each season; and whereby production crews could be kept to the bare minimum of video camera operators and video editors (prefereably both fresh out of film school and hungry for work), thereby saving even more money -- all of which meant said producer could churn out reams and reams of forgetable, indistinguishable, and aesthetically, emotionally, creatively and morally bankrupt product every year, year after year, while maximizing the profits for himself. Yes - the invention of reality television sure has helped that producer, and hundreds like him, make a very good living in television. But it hasn't helped me on iota, and indeed there are more poor and very bad examples of the 'craft' of television production than ever before.

Peter

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 09:35:07 AM »
Mike - I think you're right, and, I don't mind carts and use them on occassion, but just to say:

"Reality television" wouldn't have come about if it weren't for some smart producer realizing that he could design a business model and a television product whereby he'd never have to pay actors any money (or stars big money) and instead have an ever changing cast of faceless and talentless amateur nobodies who would never threaten the business model (by becoming stars) because the design of the program itself called for new and uknown faces each season; and whereby production crews could be kept to the bare minimum of video camera operators and video editors (prefereably both fresh out of film school and hungry for work), thereby saving even more money -- all of which meant said producer could churn out reams and reams of forgetable, indistinguishable, and aesthetically, emotionally, creatively and morally bankrupt product every year, year after year, while maximizing the profits for himself. Yes - the invention of reality television sure has helped that producer, and hundreds like him, make a very good living in television. But it hasn't helped me on iota, and indeed there are more poor and very bad examples of the 'craft' of television production than ever before.

Peter

PETER,
I didn't say I thought it was good for golf.
Your example above is becoming the American way.  24 hour news has had a dramatic affect on American life and politics.  When news was a service and not a profit center it had a completely different take.  And take ESPN for example.  When hockey went on strike they picked up college baseball and three card poker...less cameras and no contracts...it boomed and they could have cared less if hockey came back.  Hell they were even paying LPGA around 28 mill a year and only selling about 8 mill in ads but the filler was needed and they were making a killing with subscribers.  So, yes, we have evolved  ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 09:52:49 AM »
Circa 35% of the American population is now categorised as obese....

You guys know better than most just what Sunday morning at a U.S 'everyman' course looks like.

Buggies are for people that are too old to walk, not too fat.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 09:58:05 AM »
All of you who use a calculator instead of doing math longhand piss on the graves of all the mathematicians that came before us.

Real skiers walk back up the hill, too.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 10:04:44 AM »
Mike - I had this very discussion at my Tiger Golf Gathering charity tournament last week. My opinion is that the golf cart has done more to damage the game of golf than any single device ever created. It allowed too many courses to be built in places where courses would never have otherwise been located, turning the game into something it was not intended to be. Who would have ever imagined a course would ban walking!

Golf carts killed the exercise value and most of the physical challenge of golf, which is a major reason young people stopped coming to the game... it became a soft game for geezers in funny clothes. So, the kids took up soccer.

Golf carts allowed for the creation of unwalkable courses, forced onto ill-suited land with massive construction budgets. The result was escalating prices. Who would ever have imagined $100, $200, $300... $500+ fees to play a ROUND of golf!!!

If the cart had never been widely accepted, golf (and golf courses) in the US would look very much like golf in most of the world... a walking game on courses created for walking. Yes, it would be much smaller, but is that a bad thing?

Whit

PS - my event was played with carts. Without them 70% of the field would never show up. I would guess that 50% of the field have never walked a round of golf in their lives!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 10:08:05 AM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

BCowan

Re: The golf car......
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 10:10:41 AM »
Those without age or medical conditions are a disgrace and tarnish the good name of golfer and courses alike – they show no backbone to engage with the game of golf, force walkers to ride or seek to feel even better by having no walking courses. These are quite simply lazy and inconsiderate people who make questionable claims regards being golfers and brings into question just how accurate are their scores compared to genuine walking golfers who suffer the fatigue of the course and the weather.

^^^^Amen

Mike you confused me did Melvin write this or was this your response to Melvin?  Both you and Melvin are invite to both of my Walking Golfer Society events!!!!  Who ever wrote this can MC it too.  I just got my GF's father to walk for the first time when we played Pine Needles two weeks ago.  I think he really enjoyed walking.  It isn't a large organization problem, it is people not having the guts to suggest walking to their fellow players and guests.  My father and mother both walk and when my dad brings guests out he get carts, and it pisses me off when the course has trolley's to rent for next to nothing.  We keep failing at the lowest level to communicate how golf is really suppose to be played.  It used to just be unwritten rules that you walked if you were physically able to.  

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 10:11:52 AM »
Michael,
Yep carts....a five year old upon going to he course would much rather think he is driving the cart than hitting the ball...

I wish I had known you had a Tiger Golf Gathering..( you did mean for John Bernhart right?)

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2013, 10:13:44 AM »
Those without age or medical conditions are a disgrace and tarnish the good name of golfer and courses alike – they show no backbone to engage with the game of golf, force walkers to ride or seek to feel even better by having no walking courses. These are quite simply lazy and inconsiderate people who make questionable claims regards being golfers and brings into question just how accurate are their scores compared to genuine walking golfers who suffer the fatigue of the course and the weather.

^^^^Amen

Mike you confused me did Melvin write this or was this your response to Melvin?  Both you and Melvin are invite to both of my Walking Golfer Society events!!!!  Who ever wrote this can MC it too.  I just got my GF's father to walk for the first time when we played Pine Needles two weeks ago.  I think he really enjoyed walking.  It isn't a large organization problem, it is people not having the guts to suggest walking to their fellow players and guests.  My father and mother both walk and when my dad brings guests out he get carts, and it pisses me off when the course has trolley's to rent for next to nothing.  We keep failing at the lowest level to communicate how golf is really suppose to be played.  It used to just be unwritten rules that you walked if you were physically able to.  

Melvyn asked me to post it...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brent Hutto

Re: The golf car......
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 10:20:49 AM »
There are at least two families in my neighborhood who shuttle their kids (in one case) and grandkids (in the other) from their house to the very nice city park at the end of the street. This is a distance of less than 400 yards, on a wide residential street with very little traffic and there is no hill involved.

As often as not, one or the other family opts not to play on the playground, use the picnic area or walking trail or tennis course but rather to spend an hour letting the small children take turns driving the family four-seater golf cart around and around and around the park.

BCowan

Re: The golf car......
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2013, 10:34:19 AM »
Brent

    I had a walking event last summer and this gentlemen who lived in Columbus said he had friends that refused to play golf with him because he walked.  When i played with this gentlemen, our foursome finished in 3:45.  The guy moved real quickly. 

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2013, 10:41:11 AM »
Michael,
Yep carts....a five year old upon going to he course would much rather think he is driving the cart than hitting the ball...

I wish I had known you had a Tiger Golf Gathering..( you did mean for John Bernhart right?)

No, sorry...it was the charity tournament I run to raise money for Clemson Golf and SC Junior Golf Foundation.  This was our 11th year.

http://tigergolfgathering.com/
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2013, 10:46:01 AM »
Brent

    I had a walking event last summer and this gentlemen who lived in Columbus said he had friends that refused to play golf with him because he walked.  When i played with this gentlemen, our foursome finished in 3:45.  The guy moved real quickly. 

It is impossible to enjoy a round when three guys are in a cart and the fourth walks.  Drive to your ball and wait or hit while you listen to him click his irons catching up.  On any walk of distance he hitches a ride without offering to pay a fee.  It's embarrassing to be a party to someone stealing.  I'm not even going to speculate on the other issues an individual who thinks that his desire to walk is more important than the overall pleasure of his other three "friends" may have.

BCowan

Re: The golf car......
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2013, 11:01:06 AM »
It is impossible to enjoy a round when three guys are in a cart and the fourth walks.  Drive to your ball and wait or hit while you listen to him click his irons catching up.  On any walk of distance he hitches a ride without offering to pay a fee.  It's embarrassing to be a party to someone stealing.  I'm not even going to speculate on the other issues an individual who thinks that his desire to walk is more important than the overall pleasure of his other three "friends" may have.

Wow, i am surprised someone on here would expose those thoughts.  But then again I have read your previous posts and i am not surprised.  Wow, we conclude that someone is going to hop on a cart.  So a walker who plays the game the way it should be played is vilified by lazy cart riders and coerced into riding...  I forgot John likes coercion....

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2013, 11:24:53 AM »
I love to walk.  I would almost always prefer to walk rather than ride whenever I play.  I would guess that I walk 95% of the rounds that I play.  So I will say that my credentials as a walking golfer are beyond reproach.  That said, I don't think there is some mystical experience about walking, and I surely don't begrudge others who want to ride in a golf cart.  When I hear people bitch and moan about carts, I roll my eyes.  When we're wondering why the game is shrinking in popularity, I don't think we condone this type of holier-than-thou attitude about walking vs. riding (and it goes both ways).

It should an individual choice whether to walk or ride.  Live and let live.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2013, 11:27:00 AM »
It is impossible to enjoy a round when three guys are in a cart and the fourth walks.  Drive to your ball and wait or hit while you listen to him click his irons catching up.  On any walk of distance he hitches a ride without offering to pay a fee.  It's embarrassing to be a party to someone stealing.  I'm not even going to speculate on the other issues an individual who thinks that his desire to walk is more important than the overall pleasure of his other three "friends" may have.

Wow, i am surprised someone on here would expose those thoughts.  But then again I have read your previous posts and i am not surprised.  Wow, we conclude that someone is going to hop on a cart.  So a walker who plays the game the way it should be played is vilified by lazy cart riders and coerced into riding...  I forgot John likes coercion....

It has nothing to do with laziness.  To have any social interaction at all it is important for at least half the group to either walk or ride.  One cart rider in a group of three walkers is just as disturbing.  I'm not even going to argue that one is faster than the other when it comes to total time played.  My issue is with the linear flow of the group.  Everyone needs to arrive in the hitting zone together to prevent awkward pauses.  It's like when you are out to eat and someones food arrives later than the rest of the table.  You order together and you eat together and the guy who orders a pizza when everyone else is having a sandwich is a jerk.


BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf car......
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2013, 11:28:18 AM »
It is impossible to enjoy a round when three guys are in a cart and the fourth walks.  Drive to your ball and wait or hit while you listen to him click his irons catching up.  On any walk of distance he hitches a ride without offering to pay a fee.  It's embarrassing to be a party to someone stealing.  I'm not even going to speculate on the other issues an individual who thinks that his desire to walk is more important than the overall pleasure of his other three "friends" may have.

I have played a number of rounds where I was the only walker.  I enjoyed those rounds.  So I think I have found the flaw in your reasoning.