News: Local School Board attempting to take a golf course to build a school

[Dan Herrmann]

http://phoenixville.patch.com/groups/politics-and-elections/p/teed-off-over-meadowbrook-land-acquisition
http://www.dailylocal.com/general-news/20131130/protesters-oppose-golf-course-acquisition

It's a mess - Meadowbrook a 9 hole course in Phoenixville, PA is the eminent domain target of the local school board.   The Bauch Collection includes photos of the course:  http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/MeadowBrook/index.html

Quoting from one of the articles above ("the family" = the course's owners):
"“What they’re doing is just theft,” said Steve Piotrowski, one of the head organizers of a group called Citizens for Liberty, which organized the protest. “The family just stopped by, they were in tears, thanking us. They said it’s theft. They’re not willing to sell (the golf club) for the price they want.”

Personally, I think it's a shame.  We need golf courses like this, and to see one taken for under fair value just stinks to high heaven in my opinion.

[John Kavanaugh]

The family needs to move to Southern Indiana and buy an 18 hole Doak course. They would have close to $4 million left for pocket change.  There are very few courses in the country worth $450,000 per hole.

Edit due to math error: $550,000 per hole.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Dan,

"Fair Value" has yet to be determined. The owners are entitled to their day in court:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57351.0.html

[John Kavanaugh]

I have no idea what the land is worth but to say the golf course is worth more than $5 million makes us look like ignorant selfish fools.  I feel sorry for all the course owners that don't have a school board wanting to buy them.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Right now it's worth almost $100K/acre according to the School District. Let's see what the owners appraisal says when they go to court. Their 8M demand may not be from an appraiser. It may be just their opinion but their opinion is admissible in court.

[Dan Herrmann]

Sorry - this was already being discussed here ===>  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57351.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Right now it's worth almost $100K/acre according to the School District. Let's see what the owners appraisal says when they go to court. Their 8M demand may not be from an appraiser. It may be just their opinion but their opinion is admissible in court.

Steve, depending upon the zoning, which government controls, I'll guarantee you that if it's zoned for residential or commercial that it's worth far more than $ 100,000 per acre

What doesn't seem to have been discussed is the annual operating profit/loss the business generates.

If I have a business that generates $ 500,000 in profit every year, confiscating the land vis a vis eminent domain doesn't take into consideration the value of the operating business on that site, a business that's dependent upon that site

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Have you looked at the pictures of the course?  Btw.  I think there are 350 acres.  Steve's math is worse than mine.

[Pete_Pittock]

Patrick,

Have you looked at the pictures of the course?  Btw.  I think there are 350 acres.  Steve's math is worse than mine.

John,
The article says it is a 52 acre site

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Have you looked at the pictures of the course?  

JakaB,

I have NOT.
To a great degree, unless the site is replete with wetlands, the architectural quality of the course is irrelevant when you get into "highest use valuations" for raw land.

Btw.  I think there are 350 acres.  

The number of acres is almost irrelevant, it's the value per acre that's the critical factor.
350 acres seems like an awfully big parcel to locate a school, or even three schools.

I suspect that the school district felt that they'd get the least public resistance in confiscating this site versus others.


Steve's math is worse than mine.

Perhaps so is the School District's.
$ 35,000,000 seems like an excessive amount of money to shell out (and tax) for property to locate a school/s
And, that's the low bid.

Then factor in arbitration/court and the construction costs and you're probably looking at a $ 100,000,000 project for three (3) schools.

Who's going to pay for that extravagance ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete,

That makes far, far more sense.

350 acres would be an insane purchase for the purpose.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Have you looked at the pictures of the course?  Btw.  I think there are 350 acres.  Steve's math is worse than mine.

John,
The article says it is a 52 acre site

Looks like I can't read either. I do feel sorry for these people as they are getting some bad advice. This will not end well. I guess they have spent so many years around golfers that they actually believe anyone besides a golfer sees value in the game.

[Nigel Islam]

The family needs to move to Southern Indiana and buy an 18 hole Doak course. They would have close to $4 million left for pocket change.  There are very few courses in the country worth $450,000 per hole.

Edit due to math error: $550,000 per hole.

LOL they could buy that condemned house on Quail for cheap too!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lot of conflicting information there. Are they willing sellers as the school board maintains or not?  Are those dozen protesters actually the owner or just tea party minimalist government activists who have picked this as a cause.

If valued at $4M and paid $5M, its hard to call the govt. the bad guy in this. As noted by others, it probably wouldn't sell as a golf course for more than $1-2M tops.  If the land is worth more raw, then maybe but it is probably the best deal they will get.

While we all hate for golf courses to close, and love to cast the govt. as villains the local guys probably studied a lot of sites and decided this was the best deal after consideration.  Of course, I don't know the facts but when the newspaper can't get comments from the golf owner and others speak for him, I think maybe there is more smoke than fire.  Again, the county calls them a willing seller and the price seems fair, at least based on the news article.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Have you looked at the pictures of the course?  Btw.  I think there are 350 acres.  Steve's math is worse than mine.

John,
The article says it is a 52 acre site

Looks like I can't read either. I do feel sorry for these people as they are getting some bad advice.
This will not end well.

I guess they have spent so many years around golfers that they actually believe anyone besides a golfer sees value in the game.

JakaB,

Do you begrudge Tennis Players their right to own, operate and play on tennis courts ?

Swimmers their pools

Recreational Hockey players their ice.

I don't get your negative perspective, especially since you've advocated for golf for so long, including the gambling element

What gives ?

Why the negative attitude ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lot of conflicting information there. Are they willing sellers as the school board maintains or not?  Are those dozen protesters actually the owner or just tea party minimalist government activists who have picked this as a cause.

If valued at $4M and paid $5M, its hard to call the govt. the bad guy in this. As noted by others, it probably wouldn't sell as a golf course for more than $1-2M tops.  If the land is worth more raw, then maybe but it is probably the best deal they will get.

Jeff,

Who valued it at $ 4,000,000 ?

How quickly you and others forget the Halper family in Piscataway, NJ, when the town valued their land at $ 4,000,000 and it subsequently was determined to be worth $ 18,000,000.

So, if they got $ 5,000,000 should they have been happy ?

Adequately compensated for the confiscation ?

While we all hate for golf courses to close, and love to cast the govt. as villains the local guys probably studied a lot of sites and decided this was the best deal after consideration.  

You can't be that naive.............. can you ?

Of course, I don't know the facts but when the newspaper can't get comments from the golf owner and others speak for him, I think maybe there is more smoke than fire.

Why ?
Maybe his attorney advised him to not comment.
Would you ignore the advice of counsel ?   Especially when you're paying for it ?   And, millions are at stake ? 

Again, the county calls them a willing seller and the price seems fair, at least based on the news article.

Well, that settles that.
If the newspaper declared it's a fair price, it must be a fair price.
What newspaper was that again ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Have you looked at the pictures of the course?  Btw.  I think there are 350 acres.  Steve's math is worse than mine.

John,
The article says it is a 52 acre site

Looks like I can't read either. I do feel sorry for these people as they are getting some bad advice.
This will not end well.

I guess they have spent so many years around golfers that they actually believe anyone besides a golfer sees value in the game.

JakaB,

Do you begrudge Tennis Players their right to own, operate and play on tennis courts ?

Swimmers their pools

Recreational Hockey players their ice.

I don't get your negative perspective, especially since you've advocated for golf for so long, including the gambling element

What gives ?

Why the negative attitude ?

I believe in reasonable solutions to complex problems. A new school serves the public good better than a crap hole golf course. I trust the courts to provide the owners with a fair value. There was a time not so long ago every golfer I knew would agree. We now live in a far more selfish world.

[BCowan]

I believe in reasonable solutions to complex problems. A new school serves the public good better than a crap hole golf course. I trust the courts to provide the owners with a fair value. There was a time not so long ago every golfer I knew would agree. We now live in a far more selfish world.

   So if it would of been a course of prominence it wouldn't be okay to confiscate land ''for the children''.  We live in a world where people have no respect for private property and use the line ''it's for the Children'' and make determinations on emotion instead of rule of law.  Railroads and Roads are only eminent domain rights for it makes commerce (bartering) regular.  You might want to research countries with little property rights and see if you would like to live there.  We live in a more ignorant world devoid of repeating pitfalls history reminds us of.  Having land confiscated against one's will is selfish, wow are we in trouble.... 

[Mike Sweeney]

I believe in reasonable solutions to complex problems. A new school serves the public good better than a crap hole golf course. I trust the courts to provide the owners with a fair value. There was a time not so long ago every golfer I knew would agree. We now live in a far more selfish world.

   So if it would of been a course of prominence it wouldn't be okay to confiscate land ''for the children''.  We live in a world where people have no respect for private property and use the line ''it's for the Children'' and make determinations on emotion instead of rule of law.  Railroads and Roads are only eminent domain rights for it makes commerce (bartering) regular.  You might want to research countries with little property rights and see if you would like to live there.  We live in a more ignorant world devoid of repeating pitfalls history reminds us of.  Having land confiscated against one's will is selfish, wow are we in trouble.... 

  this is my last post on this matter

I love Golf Club Atlas. 

I really really love Golf Club Atlas. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe in reasonable solutions to complex problems. A new school serves the public good better than a crap hole golf course.

You're making the assumption that the current facilities aren't sufficient, that there aren't better alternatives and that the offer is a bona fide, good faith offer representing highest use market value

I trust the courts to provide the owners with a fair value.

No one disagrees with that, the shame is that it has to go to court

There was a time not so long ago every golfer I knew would agree. We now live in a far more selfish world.

I think you need to reread the replies.
I think we all need to be in possession of ALL the facts before rendering an opinion.

But, in terms of principle, ED is often abused and subject to excess and influence

[BCowan]

I really really love Golf Club Atlas.---  I do too!

Different thread, thanks for keeping tabs though...  Trying to get me in a GHB/Gotcha moment...

[BHoover]

I don't fault the property owner(s) for wanting to receive as much compensation as possible for the property. Obviously the government is never (okay, rarely) going to make a first offer that is fair compensation in the eyes of the owner. That's why the owner gets an attorney and an appraisal and then either litigates or negotiates a settlement. Why should this course owner be expected to do anything less? I certainly would if the government were attempting to confiscate my property.

Let's face it, regardless of what the property may be used for, eminent domain is effectively government confiscation.  The owner may receive compensation, but it's still confiscation.

[John Kavanaugh]

The benefits of government public works have played as large a role in the greatness of the American experiment as individual property rights. Eminent Domain is simply a bridge connecting the two.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

That was before Kelo vs New London which exponentially expanded it's use

[Steve_ Shaffer]

A decision will be made. Arguments were heard in court last Friday:

http://www.pottsmerc.com/general-news/20140516/chesco-judge-hears-phoenixville-eminent-domain-arguments


Concurrent thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57351.0.html