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Peter Pallotta

The Anti-Romantic
« on: December 03, 2013, 09:15:27 PM »
I was reading about the composer Igor Stravinsky, and this caught my eye: "Everything about the man and his music was Anti-Romantic. In the 1930s there was a great stir when Stravinsky said that it was not music's job to 'express anything'. Composers combine notes, that is all."  Music for him wasn't about expressing an individual artist's deepest subjective feelings and beliefs, or about conveying universal truths or ideas through the medium of sound, or about using that sound as a conduit to profound spiritual or metaphysical realms. Instead, the only 'meaning' of music was the music itself, and throughout his career Stravinsky remained most concerned simply with the music's "structure, balance, texture and rhythm. His music is the work of one of the supreme logicians".  

What do you think? Were/are there gca equivalents to Stravinksy, past and present? Were/are some the logicians of the profession, focusing mainly on the 'mechanics' of the course, creating and celebrating architecture AS architecture? Were/are some the Romantics of gca, believing that these same mechanics not only could but SHOULD be at the service of something larger than the course itself? Did/do most architects past and present reside in some happy medium/middle ground? And, if so, do you think it's ACTUALLY a happy medium, or is it merely boring?

Peter

« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 09:17:01 PM by PPallotta »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 09:23:19 PM »
Counter with "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Often times, it's nature that seals the deal, combining a perfect dawn or dusk with a property that otherwise would be banal. What is evoked for/by you might differ greatly from my own experience.
Coming in 2024
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~Maybe some more!!

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 10:01:44 PM »
My partial list/feelings. Ron - you're right, but I don't mean to judge/evaluate/preference, but just to try to observe and/or intuit:

Macdonald  - Romantic
Strong - Logician
Leeds - Romantic
Raynor - Logician
Ross - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Crump - Romantic
Tillinghast - Logician
Colt - Logician
Simpson - Romantic
Thomas - Hybrid (but leaning towards Romantic)
Mackenzie - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Maxwell - Romantic
Flynn - Logician
Jones - Logician
Dye - Logician
C&C - Romantic
Doak - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Strantz - Hybrid (but leaning towards Romantic)
Nicklaus - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Hanse - Logician
Moran - Romantic
Nuzzo - Romantic
Brauer - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Andrew - Romantic
Young - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)






« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 07:54:02 AM by PPallotta »

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 04:55:25 AM »
Peter, I think Doak leans much more towards romantic, even if he uses a logical way to get there.  Macdonald may be romantic, but he used a very logical way to achieve that: he repeatedly built templates.  Probably even more true of Seth.  

Anyone who can design CPC is a romantic in my book.  

Which architect in the 1920s and 1930s wrote those formulas for golf-course design?  I believe he also often wrote critiques of others' work.  Is he the ultimate logician?  

I couldn't stand the little of Stravinsky that I heard.  I loved Chopin though.  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 08:13:59 AM »
I would agree with your assessment of me as hybrid leaning towards logical.  Mom's side had an English landscape painter, and my dads family had a lot of German engineers, so I come by that via genetics....

Besides, my training really was that all the great ideas or concepts aren't worth a hoot unless you can figure out how to implement them.  If you are a golf course architect, its more than art. Its function.  In reality we get paid more for the practical implementation than for the pie in the sky ideas.  It might actually be a great topic to see who the all time dreamers in gca were, and whether or not any just couldn't get stuff built and thus had promise, but faded away.....

I would have thought Doak leaned romantic - at least he markets that way.  However, anyone who writes as well as he does, and in the analytical style he does, has obvious logical leanings.....
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 08:16:20 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 08:54:52 AM »
Jeff, Jim - thanks for your responses. It's a personal/idiosyncratic list no doubt, and one that I came up with very quickly. But I must say that the more I think of this romantic-logician divide (one that I hadn't given much thought to), the more I like it. Seems to be more interesting (to me at least) than calling architects penal vs strategic or minimalists vs maximalists. 

Just to say, here's a few examples of what I was 'thinking': I called Macdonald a Romantic because, more than the homages/templates and principles that he created and espoused, he was actually all about "the story", i.e. the birth of quality American architecture, founded on tradition but moving in its own new way, and "the meaning" of these courses in relationship to the ethose of the game. I think of Dye as the Logician because, despite his flash and humour and style, he is about testing golfers and their games and using features and obstacles (real or imagined) in a very cool-headed way, and then to this end moving dirt or draining away water like an engineer. I think of Simpson as a Romantic because he seems to me to have consciously styled himself as such, all flowing style and rich drawings. I think of Mackenzie as a hybrid (leaning towards logician) because, while he designed artistic courses (for lack of a better word), I think of him as someone who enjoyed and thought about architecture AS architecture, i.e. it was enough for him that a course worked on 'principle', and he didn't need much more story than that.

Anyway, I suddenly feel like a bad comic trying to explain why a joke that didn't get a laugh is actually funny...so i better stop.
Peter
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 08:58:35 AM by PPallotta »

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 09:51:15 AM »
Strantz - Hybrid (but leaning towards Romantic)

Of those on your list, Strantz stuck out to me more than any other as a clear cut response.  I thought he would be viewed as the ultimate Romantic.  I view Strantz as an artist, cut from the most romantic cloth.  What was it about Strantz that led you to list him as a hybrid?  

Thanks.  Interesting topic.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 10:04:43 AM »
Hi Brian - don't know if i can give you a satisfying answer, but for me Mr. Strantz seemed to create courses that celebrated what the architect could do, i.e. while there are artistic elements obviously, those are part and parcel of an overall celebration/expression of architecture AS architecture, as can be practiced in the 21st century...and so remind me of Stravinsky expressing music AS music.

Again, I know the list may be quirky. As I was explaining to someone off line, when I came to Mike Nuzzo I thought of CB Macdonald.  Like with CBM, many might peg him as a logician (in CBM's case because of the templates, in Mike's because of his scientific background). But for me, both of them were/are about creating golf courses that not only 'work' (technically, architecturally etc) but that 'feel' and 'live and breathe' -- in other words, that are about more than the golf or even the golf architcture; the courses speak about something deeper. With Wolf Point, that something else is "freedom" -- and that is a concept and a goal that is obviously not exclusive/restricted to gca.

Peter


Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 10:08:52 AM »
Hi Brian - don't know if i can give you a satisfying answer, but for me Mr. Strantz seemed to create courses that celebrated what the architect could do, i.e. while there are artistic elements obviously, those are part and parcel of an overall celebration/expression of architecture AS architecture, as can be practiced in the 21st century...and so remind me of Stravinsky expressing music AS music.

Again, I know the list may be quirky. As I was explaining to someone off line, when I came to Mike Nuzzo I thought of CB Macdonald.  Like with CBM, many might peg him as a logician (in CBM's case because of the templates, in Mike's because of his scientific background). But for me, both of them were/are about creating golf courses that not only 'work' (technically, architecturally etc) but that 'feel' and 'live and breathe' -- in other words, that are about more than the golf or even the golf architcture; the courses speak about something deeper. With Wolf Point, that something else is "freedom" -- and that is a concept and a goal that is obviously not exclusive/restricted to gca.

Peter



That actually makes quite a bit of sense to me (architecture as architecture / music as music), especially as I went back and re-read the initial post.  Thanks.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 10:41:56 AM »
Peter,
Where would you place FLW?

Also, I think romantic design without logic will only survive the test of time if somewhere logic was added.  And , romantic elements will differ in different regions.
As for me, I consider my self a non-violent revolutionary ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 10:59:11 AM »
I would have thought Doak leaned romantic - at least he markets that way.  However, anyone who writes as well as he does, and in the analytical style he does, has obvious logical leanings.....

Think again.  My mom was a journalism major and editor.  My dad was an artillery officer in the Pacific theater, and came back to get a Ph.D. in economics.  And I did go to M.I.T., albeit briefly.

Peter has me pegged right.  People think I'm a romantic because I am an idealist ... but I learned from Mr. Dye who is as logical as they come.  I find golf holes on maps and visualize how they will work, not what they will look like.  

But I've surrounded myself with a bunch of Romantics who learned to run bulldozers, and that has proven to be a great combination.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 11:13:26 AM »
P.S.  The one you got wrong is Jack Nicklaus.  100% logician, in my view.  That was the basis for us getting along okay.

I am happy to be classed with Donald Ross and Alister MacKenzie.  And Jeff Bruaer and Mike Young, too.  ;)

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic New
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 11:25:41 AM »
I have heard the anecdote (which I can't verify) that MacKenzie and Hunter referred to Raynor in a disparaging way as "The Engineer."  It would seem to answer their opinion of how to classify Raynor, and where they saw themselves.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 11:43:51 AM by Jim Hoak »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 11:28:07 AM »
Macdonald  - Romantic
Strong - Logician
Leeds - Romantic
Raynor - Logician
Ross - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Crump - Romantic
Tillinghast - Logician
Colt - Logician
Simpson - Romantic
Thomas - Hybrid (but leaning towards Romantic)
Mackenzie - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Maxwell - Romantic
Flynn - Logician
Jones - Logician
Dye - Logician
C&C - Romantic
Doak - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Strantz - Hybrid (but leaning towards Romantic)
Nicklaus - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Hanse - Logician
Moran - Romantic
Nuzzo - Romantic
Brauer - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)
Andrew - Romantic
Young - Hybrid (but leaning towards Logician)

Interesting list and categories. What about -

James Braid
Herbert Fowler
Willie Park Jnr

ATB

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Anti-Romantic
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 11:33:37 AM »
Just like the reality of most heathland courses being in truth hybrid parkland/heathland, I would think all archies have a bit of the logician in them or they would be in serious difficulty.  I think both Park Jr and Fowler had a playful side, but were first and foremost problem solvers.  Braid may be about the most problem solving guy of the bunch.  He built no nonsense stuff even if the wilder courses such as Pennard and Perranporth feel quite romantic.

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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