Questions about the New Confidential Guide

[Sean_A]

B

What is a 7.4?  

For me, UofM was Doak's biggest whiff.  I reckon its a solid 6 the way it is now.  Its a better design than most of the Detroit clubs, but suffers a bit because of poor maintenance.  

Ciao

[BCowan]

S

   7.4 was ambiguous curve ball, just to throw you off (haha).  I reckon it is a 7+.  I think the Maint. is improving and they need to re-grass the greens!  The need to fix the drainage issues on the course!  We differ for I try and separate maint issues from design.  Metro Detroit has a great collection of well designed tracks!  Also i need to see what A Hills did to UofM so I can see what Mr Doak is saying.  I don't have any confidential design book(s), but i really have learned a lot from ''Anatomy of A Golf Course".  Sean, I believe with American great designs you have to look at the ''bones'' of a course with so many courses being altered from their original design.  You stated in an earlier post that you didn't like the collars around UofM and I don't know if you meant grass uniformity?  Anyway you can PM about UM, cause i don't want to get off topic on this post

[Tom_Doak]

Fortunately, a couple of my collaborators have already gotten there.

Might have been mentioned in another thread, but I haven't seen it. Who will be your collaborators?

Ruediger:

I've been keeping that information close to the vest, but since I put it in my Christmas letter, I might as well post it here, too.

I decided two years ago that if I was going to do a new edition of the book, the only way for it to be thorough and include a fair share of courses in places I've traveled less [or where there are lots of new courses in the past few years] was to enlist some help.  After some consideration, I asked three friends if they would participate:  Masa Nishijima from Japan, Darius Oliver from Australia, and Ran Morrissett.  All three accepted.

So, for the next edition of The Confidential Guide, each course reviewed will have anywhere from one to FOUR Doak scale grades, from each of us who have seen the course:  for example:
 7 8 8 6 for Deal  [that's my vote first, then Morrissett, Nishijima and Oliver], or
 - 8 - -    if only Ran had seen it.

I think this is much better than decimals!

The book is still written and presented in my voice, but everyone has read my reviews, added their own comments for me to incorporate [if I wanted to], and provided their own reviews of courses I hadn't seen [which I've edited in turn].

Between the four of us, we have covered 2,300 courses, and counting.  [I saw 49 courses for the first time in 2013, 32 of which had yet to be reviewed by any of the four os us.]  The first volume, covering Great Britain & Ireland, will be the smallest as it includes only about 300 courses ... but there aren't many 2's and 3's among them.

[Ruediger Meyer]

Thank you Tom,

perfect choices IMO to broaden the perspective and the number of courses. Looking very much forward to the first edition

[Jud_T]

This sounds like a pretty good methodology at first blush.  It will be interesting to see if there's any consistent bias in terms of preferences or grade inflation.  This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, if for instance through experience one ends up gravitating more toward the same preferences as say Darius or if, for example, it turns out that Ran typically grades a touch higher on average than Tom.  This would be very useful info going forward when planning a trip and would likely yield a much higher hit ratio than just chasing a compilation list from one of the rags.  It also, as mentioned, allows for a lot more courses to be covered as the really interesting bits to some of us who are over our Blue Period of Bedpost Notching and Post-Modern Access Whoring phase are finding those hidden gem 4s, 5s and 6s that can be enlightening, a ton of fun and frequently provide a lot more bang for the buck.

[Michael Felton]

Fortunately, a couple of my collaborators have already gotten there.

Might have been mentioned in another thread, but I haven't seen it. Who will be your collaborators?

Ruediger:

I've been keeping that information close to the vest, but since I put it in my Christmas letter, I might as well post it here, too.

I decided two years ago that if I was going to do a new edition of the book, the only way for it to be thorough and include a fair share of courses in places I've traveled less [or where there are lots of new courses in the past few years] was to enlist some help.  After some consideration, I asked three friends if they would participate:  Masa Nishijima from Japan, Darius Oliver from Australia, and Ran Morrissett.  All three accepted.

So, for the next edition of The Confidential Guide, each course reviewed will have anywhere from one to FOUR Doak scale grades, from each of us who have seen the course:  for example:
 7 8 8 6 for Deal  [that's my vote first, then Morrissett, Nishijima and Oliver], or
 - 8 - -    if only Ran had seen it.

I think this is much better than decimals!

The book is still written and presented in my voice, but everyone has read my reviews, added their own comments for me to incorporate [if I wanted to], and provided their own reviews of courses I hadn't seen [which I've edited in turn].

Between the four of us, we have covered 2,300 courses, and counting.  [I saw 49 courses for the first time in 2013, 32 of which had yet to be reviewed by any of the four os us.]  The first volume, covering Great Britain & Ireland, will be the smallest as it includes only about 300 courses ... but there aren't many 2's and 3's among them.

That's a great idea Tom - I wonder if that's how you dealt with the issue of rating your own courses. As in you have - 9 9 8 or something like that rather than trying to give your own course ratings for places.

[Tom_Doak]

That's a great idea Tom - I wonder if that's how you dealt with the issue of rating your own courses. As in you have - 9 9 8 or something like that rather than trying to give your own course ratings for places.

Michael:

I am still leaning toward submitting a rating for each of my own courses, but won't decide for sure until press time.  The only course of mine in the Volume 1 is The Renaissance Club, and I'm the only one who has seen it with the new holes.

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

I can't wait for the new confidential guide.  I'll be especially interested in a couple of things.

1) Tom's take on C&C's overall body of work.  Specifically what the gourmet choice is going to be for C&C, in addition to stack ranking C&C's work.  Will Sand Hills still be the C&C gourmet choice, or might it be something else?
2) I'll be especially interested in how Tom stack ranks his own courses.  Where will Streamsong, Dismal Red and Rock Creek fit in relation to Tom's other work on the Doak Scale?
3) Tom's take on a number of courses that have undergone some amount of modification by his team, and whether he has changed his opinion/Doak rating for any of them.

Tom - when do you think we will see the U.S. version of the new confidential guide?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - when do you think we will see the U.S. version of the new confidential guide?

Barry:

At present I'm thinking the Americas version [including Canada, the Caribbean, Central America and South America] will comprise two books - volumes 2 and 3.

The anticipated release date for volume 1 is June 1, 2014.

Volume 2 will most likely be the around the same time in 2015.  Volume 3 might follow more closely after that - say, in December 2015.  But to some degree it depends on how busy I am with my day job.

There is also likely to be an online edition available at some point before then, but I haven't even begun to figure that out yet.

[Ulrich Mayring]

So with Masa and Darius part of the team I am guessing that volume 4 will be Asia/Australia. So that leaves continental Europe for, what, volume 5 in 2018?

Ulrich

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm hoping to see some twists in the new books not seen in the original.  The 31 flavors was good at the time but now its not much of a secret what is great?  My guess is a few fall off and new courses that are added make some headlines but its not earthshaking.

I would like to see the panels thoughts on the best restorations over the last 20 years and what courses need to be restored.  

Regardless this is one of the most highly anticipated golf books in many years and shock waves are destined to be heard.

[Tom_Doak]

So with Masa and Darius part of the team I am guessing that volume 4 will be Asia/Australia. So that leaves continental Europe for, what, volume 5 in 2018?

Ulrich

Ulrich:

I've been thinking the other way around, but it really depends on where I spend the most time in the next 3 years - Asia and Australia or Europe and Africa?

My wife is rooting for Europe.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Tom,

From reading what you have told us about the update, I'm interpreting that there will not be an internet portal offered from which updates will be made to courses as new ones come online, closures/significant renovations occur, etc.

Was that investigated? If so, did it prove unworkable, or were there other reasons for that decision.

[Jud_T]

I really hope a Kindle edition will be offered as well.  This is one of the very few books that I'd really like to have in both formats.  It'd be great to have on your iPad or iPhone to reference while traveling and changing plans on the fly, or simply to reread after a long day of golf.  How about a bundle price if you buy both?

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - if you could put it in a nutshell (and if, of course, you even think in these terms): who was your intended audience with the first major edition of the guide, and who is your intended audience now?

Thanks
Peter

[Sean_A]

Tom - if you could put it in a nutshell (and if, of course, you even think in these terms): who was your intended audience with the first major edition of the guide, and who is your intended audience now?

Thanks
Peter

Pietro

Excellent question which drills to the heart of the matter. 

Ciao

[Michael Moore]

Tom -

If the title remains the same, will that be the logical perpetuation of a luxury brand or an ironic wink towards your famous and electronically gregarious persona?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - if you could put it in a nutshell (and if, of course, you even think in these terms): who was your intended audience with the first major edition of the guide, and who is your intended audience now?

Thanks
Peter

Peter:

The audience for the original edition of the book -- the 40 copies -- was my well-traveled friends in golf.  People sometimes say they are writing "what they would tell their friends," but that's exactly what The Confidential Guide was to start with.  That's why it was no-holds-barred.  Had I been writing for a large audience, I could never have been quite so blunt.

That's still the primary audience today -- people who love golf and love to travel.  The people who have the most problems with the book are the ones who don't travel much, and who think it's irrelevant that one course is too similar to another; but if you don't want to travel then why would you read a book about courses in other places?

Generally, I've taken guidance from that quote of Harvey Penick's -- "if you play golf, you're my friend."  So my advice on courses worth playing is the same for everyone as it is for my friends.

Regarding the questions about other formats:  we'll have to wait and see.  I do hope to pursue a web site / internet portal by which the book can be updated continually, that will be available by subscription [or free to those who buy the full set of books].  That would also have the advantage of being accessible when you're traveling, which I think is important.  A Kindle version is another option, but I don't know how difficult that is to set up, and I think my royalty agreements are a little different from the norm for Amazon  

[Jud_T]

How about an App? You type in a City, State or Country and voila, the latest reviews for that area pop up.

[Jim Nugent]

That's still the primary audience today -- people who love golf and love to travel.  The people who have the most problems with the book are the ones who don't travel much, and who think it's irrelevant that one course is too similar to another; but if you don't want to travel then why would you read a book about courses in other places?

For the same reason travel-logs and travel TV shows are so popular: so people who may never visit these places in person can still get a sense of what they are about.  Do the golf magazines only appeal to golf travelers?  I very much doubt it.  Yet the major ones all feature golf ratings, including (frequently) global ones.    

I most likely will never play the courses you review.  But I am definitely interested in the new CG.  My guess is your market is anyone who likes/loves golf courses.  Whether or not they can travel.  

[Peter Pallotta]

I was about to write the same thing, Jim.

When Tom answered, I thought to myself: well, I very much look forward to buying a copy, but much more for the information AS information and insights AS insights than as a guide to my travel or destinations choices.

For me there is intrinisc value in (and pleasure to be derived from) expert practitioners sharing their expertise in an accesible manner, whether the field is gca or physics or religion or music.  

I'm going to buy the Guide simply to "know".

Peter

[Thomas Dai]

It will be interesting to see how the book is 'rated' when it's published! Will there be a GCA Discussion Board rating panel? How many stars will website etc reviewers give it? Will it perhaps be reviewed by four individuals under the code - - - - with a rating number instead of the - to signify which individual has assigned which rating?

Just having a mischievous chuckle

Looking forward to reading it - although maybe not the sections about Beau Desert and Perranporth

All the best

[Garland Bayley]

...
 7 8 8 6 for Deal  [that's my vote first, then Morrissett, Nishijima and Oliver], or
...

Decimals have finally made it into the Doak Scale. Deal gets a 7.25!

[JC Jones]

How about an App? You type in a City, State or Country and voila, the latest reviews for that area pop up.

At this point, Jud, you're out of control.

[Steve Lang]

  does the CG morph into conde nast territory?



hope not..