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Paul Gray

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2013, 07:54:33 AM »
??? ??? ???

 Think this thread is getting a little off line.  Just because someone can't play the shots the "experts" can doesn't disqualify them from understanding the game, or it's architecture. If this was the case many of the best architects in the world would be disqualified from working due to their lack of talent at playing the game .

I appreciate Lynn's imput but don't see her lack of length precluding her from participating in the group or understanding the strategy for all types of player, male , female , senior , professional et al .

But Archie, how well can you honestly say you appreciate the strategy of the game for women golfers? Ergo, why would a women feel inclined to get involved in a discussion about strategies centred around men?

And rather than many top architects excluding themselves from the field because they didn't play the game at the highest level, isn't that a positive for the average golfer? Look at the courses which the likes of Jack Nicklaus has actually had real involvement in and tell me how many of those courses represent real pleasure for the 20 handicap, 70 year old guy. Said golfer might well still love playing TOC but isn't going to love the course that Jack built.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

JLahrman

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2013, 10:52:14 AM »
JLarham - good to hear you are thinking about this and yes some of the senior ladies are very adept with a five wood – they use it for most shots.

Research suggests the low 4000 yards is most comfortable for many women.

Given the overly long courses Australian women currently play and their unfamiliarity with the concept, application and benefit of forward tees, I have a sense that an additional tee in the mid 4000 metres, (high 4000 yards) would be a significant step forward here.

As an aside - we have very recently adopted the usga slope system here and I was on the rating team for our district - we were asked to rate 'new short courses' for some clubs that were only 20 to 50 metres shorter than the red tees/regular women's course.

While no doubt the above adjustments were proposed with good intent this is a telling example of how the topic and benefits of forward tees is readily misunderstood.

Cheers, Lyne

Lyne, thanks for the reply. In addition to the obvious distance concerns, are what are the other architectural considerations that apply much more to women than men. For instance, are greenside bunkers of a certain depth all but unplayable for women who generally do not hit the ball as high as men?

JLahrman

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2013, 11:04:02 AM »
It only got bad when it became "walkball"
who in God's name decided that  a jump step after 2+ steps was OK.
i'm not sure there'll be any dribbling in 20 years

Come on Jeff, aren't you exaggerating a bit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7DjZehIGvs

Thomas Dai

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2013, 11:20:49 AM »
Whilst there are architectural aspects to male-female golf there are also maintenance issues - for example, I know a course where the thick wooden bunker rake handles are so long and the rake heads are so heavy that most of the women (plus the weaker men and younger juniors) struggle to rake the bunkers, yet any attempt to convince the powers that be on the green committee to get some more appropriately sized and weighted rakes falls on seemingly deaf ears. I guess that nothing will happen until the husband of a lady member/golfer becomes Chairman of Greens.
ATB

Lyne Morrison

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2013, 07:51:22 PM »
'Is your answer to scale down courses from their current size, so more women can experience them the way men do now?'

Jim Nugent,

I don't believe we should be aiming to achieve parity - this is not realistic in my view, nor is it necessary or my concern.

What I would like to see are adjustments made to longer courses so that the typical /average female or senior player is able to engage with the course more positively.

Our courses are typically overlong for females and seniors. If I could use a typical par 3 that we would play here as an example:  most female club golfers (typically skilled club woman, mid twenties h'cap) will never  experience the potential fun these holes can provide while ever we continue to play yardages around 150 - 180 metres / 165 - 195 yards. Why? because the majority will never reach the green from the tee. We should all take a moment and reflect on these golfers playing the same course for 20 or 30 years or more and never - or rarely, reaching a par 3 green from the tee.... I don't believe it is acceptable to say 'too bad' - I believe we can do better. I also believe such goodwill is a positive move for improved participation and player enjoyment.

Reducing length not only introduces the option of varied club selection - as any set of well designed par 3's should naturally provide, it also presents the opportunity for shorter hitting golfers to better connect with the intent of the architecture, while increasing player enjoyment and speeding play.

Lyne


Lyne Morrison

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2013, 08:28:12 PM »

jeffwarne,

Jim Hoak posed the question 'That he would like to understand if women golfers see golf architecture issues different than men' -

You say: 'if they don't place their ball properly hitting and holding a green are impossible unless they use runups provided.'

'we talk a lot about AVOIDING trouble as they just don't have the strength for certain recovery shots.'


You raise some fair points in your post and it sounds like you are working well with your women. I would suggest however that the two situations above point to why shorter hitting women and seniors may experience architecture differently to longer hitting golfers in general, or the many male players.

These women are presented with a situation where 'defensive' golf is required more often than not - this is far removed from taking on the challenge of the architecture - and experiencing the buzz that doing this well presents.

Lyne



Angela Moser

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2013, 04:26:45 AM »
Thank you Howard Riefs for the free marketing by linking my homepage. :)


I tried to avoid answering to this post, but it really made me laugh hard:
"Jud T:
It would be great to get more of a woman's perspective on courses and architecture.
It would be great to get more female raters.
It would be great to get more women to play golf.
It would be great if every GCA outing wasn't a complete sausage-fest."

- Jud, I don't know what you should expect rather than a sausage-fest, but if I have time and be around somewhere in the States at that time, I would love to participate and kick some butt.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2013, 05:06:57 AM »
....if I have time and be around somewhere in the States at that time, I would love to participate and kick some butt.
Hilarious response....and if you do participate, please post a photograph of the said butt being kicked!
ATB

Tom_Doak

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2013, 05:12:44 AM »
Our courses are typically overlong for females and seniors. If I could use a typical par 3 that we would play here as an example:  most female club golfers (typically skilled club woman, mid twenties h'cap) will never  experience the potential fun these holes can provide while ever we continue to play yardages around 150 - 180 metres / 165 - 195 yards. Why? because the majority will never reach the green from the tee.

Seriously?  The forward tees for par threes are still at 165-195 yards in your part of the world?

That era ended in the USA thirty years ago, thanks to Mrs. Dye.

One of the problems with this problem is that the few women golfers who get interested in golf architecture, like Mrs. Dye or like Angela, are all very good players who often play from the men's tees.  They understand that most women are not so capable, but even then, they have a hard time relating to the average woman's game almost as much as I do.

One thought that occurred to me while walking practice rounds at Sebonack this summer was that for women golfers' interest, I am building my courses way way too WIDE.  The women pros do not hit it any farther than me, but they would be perfectly okay with a few holes where they were asked to squeeze their tee shot into a 15- or 20-yard wide landing area.  And the average woman hitting it 135 yards at a time would be fine with that, too.  But nobody designs holes like that because all the guys are trying to hit the ball as hard as they can, and all except seniors are completely unable to thread a needle with a tee shot.

I would love to design a course someday specifically for women's play, at a resort with multiple courses.  It would be so different than what everyone is building today, it would be quite exciting.  Unfortunately, the only place that would be likely to get business is in South Korea, and I don't want to build mine on the side of a mountain.

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2013, 08:49:26 AM »
We have 40% female golfers in Germany, so you might make some inroads with that idea here.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

jeffwarne

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2013, 03:54:43 PM »
Our courses are typically overlong for females and seniors. If I could use a typical par 3 that we would play here as an example:  most female club golfers (typically skilled club woman, mid twenties h'cap) will never  experience the potential fun these holes can provide while ever we continue to play yardages around 150 - 180 metres / 165 - 195 yards. Why? because the majority will never reach the green from the tee.

Seriously?  The forward tees for par threes are still at 165-195 yards in your part of the world?

That era ended in the USA thirty years ago, thanks to Mrs. Dye.

One of the problems with this problem is that the few women golfers who get interested in golf architecture, like Mrs. Dye or like Angela, are all very good players who often play from the men's tees.  They understand that most women are not so capable, but even then, they have a hard time relating to the average woman's game almost as much as I do.

One thought that occurred to me while walking practice rounds at Sebonack this summer was that for women golfers' interest, I am building my courses way way too WIDE.  The women pros do not hit it any farther than me, but they would be perfectly okay with a few holes where they were asked to squeeze their tee shot into a 15- or 20-yard wide landing area.  And the average woman hitting it 135 yards at a time would be fine with that, too.  But nobody designs holes like that because all the guys are trying to hit the ball as hard as they can, and all except seniors are completely unable to thread a needle with a tee shot.

.

I have mentioned this to people for years and they've looked at me like I was nuts.
As the golf ball and power have exploded, corridors and fairways have needed to get larger, to keep the scale the same.
Ironically the exact opposite has happened-

For lower clubhead speed players, they are indeed playing a different game and inaccuracy off the tee is far less penalizing as they are unlikely to hit it out of the corridor, or even the fairway.
The real problem is mixing these low and high speed players-there's no chance they can play the SAME game, as the scale is entirely different. The challenge lies in building courses that are fun and different for both types of players by not attempting to provide the SAME challenges, but different ones that they interface with separately -which very much argues for the theory of random bunkering, rather than trying to place tees at different distances to create the same interaction with the hazard.
Even if successful at trapping an equally loose shot from their various tees, if a stronger player can rip a 7 iron on the green and a weaker player has to hit out sideways, the test is not the same for the second or third shot so why try so hard to duplicate for all players the challenge of the tee shot?

and on the comment about woman's tees all being 165-195 locally for Lynne.
If that's the case the yardages must be pretty darn repetitive for the men as well ;) ;)
Not too many "Shorts" down there

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2013, 07:09:24 PM »
Thank you Howard Riefs for the free marketing by linking my homepage. :)


I tried to avoid answering to this post, but it really made me laugh hard:
"Jud T:
It would be great to get more of a woman's perspective on courses and architecture.
It would be great to get more female raters.
It would be great to get more women to play golf.
It would be great if every GCA outing wasn't a complete sausage-fest."

Every GCA.com outing ISN'T a "sausage fest"

At several of the GCA.com get togethers that I've organized, women were welcome, attended, participated and played.

The problem is posting morons who make general indictments absent the facts. ;D


- Jud, I don't know what you should expect rather than a sausage-fest, but if I have time and be around somewhere in the States at that time, I would love to participate and kick some butt.

Steve Lang

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2013, 07:34:05 PM »
 8)

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2013, 08:02:31 PM »

Steve Lang

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2013, 08:23:42 PM »
 8)  Classic Pat…  especially at the 5 minute mark
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Doug Siebert

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2013, 03:19:25 AM »
I was guessing at 20% of golfers being women, but I just Googled it.  The last numbers I see are from the National Golf Foundation for 2010.  In the US, adult women golfers were 4.7 million of 23.6 million for 19.97%.  When including child golfers, the numbers are 5.3 million of 26.2 million for 20.22%.


A more appropriate question would be what percentage of rounds are played by female golfers.  I would guess that men are more likely to be really "into" golf, and play fairly often.  The people who play less often are much less likely to be interested in discussing its nuances at the level of detail GCA does.  From my discussions with people on this site, or those I've met at the 5th Major, most of you play a lot more often than I do.  That probably accounts for my rather spotty participation on this site - the same reason why it would not be unexpected for fewer women to be avid enough golfers to be potentially interested in this site.

As for the people wondering where the misogynistic comments are, look no further than those comparing men posting on golf architecture websites to women posting on fashion websites! ::) That's not hostile to women, doesn't rise to the level of misogyny, but non-member women who read GCA and have considered becoming a member and posting who read that probably aren't seeing that as a particularly welcoming sign...

I do tend to agree with those saying that a fair number of the architecture discussions we get into here are less relevant to a typical female golfer, since they don't hit it as far or as high.  A lot of us (and I know I'm guilty of this myself) tend to look at it from the viewpoint of long hitters, as many of us are pretty good (or decent, in my case) players and hit further than most men, let alone most women.  I've learned a lot more about how different the architecture works for really short hitters as my dad ages, he's lucky to drive the ball more than 130 yards now, he's at the point where most women could outdrive him.

There may be more women here than we know - I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there were one or two that didn't make their gender known.  Use your initial or a pseudonym, tell everyone you're a "short knocker" if mention of how far you hit comes up in a thread, and who is going to ever know?  That might be seen by some as the path of least resistance in such a male-dominated forum, so no one treats you differently (neither better nor worse)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Lyne Morrison

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2013, 06:08:13 PM »
'In addition to the obvious distance concerns, what are the other architectural considerations that apply much more to women than men. For instance, are greenside bunkers of a certain depth all but unplayable for women who generally do not hit the ball as high as men?'


JLahram, my apologies for this late response.

Yours is a very good question - and one that should be asked more often by both architects and Green Committee members.

These are the key elements that affect the masses of shorter hitters:

Long carries!
Around 65 yards / 60 metres is a fair length for the average female golfer to tackle on a carry. Longer than this and trouble may arise for the shortest hitters - particularly where water, wetlands, waste areas, sand and/or heavy rough are encountered.

Long carries do not only occur from off the tee - they may also present at a point along the fairway corridor. It is not very satisfactory for these golfers to have to play - for example; driver, seven iron, five wood, seven iron, to find a par four green – all because these players must negotiate a cross hazard at a mid-point in the fairway. Better to consider a broader spectrum of player when setting out the golf hole and paying closer attention to the position of the tees.

The problems associated with long carries lead to reduced levels of enjoyment, lost balls and an overall slower pace of play - these negatives impact the 'fun factor' of golf, the reputation of a course, levels of participation and return play.

Bunkers:
You are right that deep bunkers are a challenge. My feeling is, where the face has a variety of depth the golfer is provided the option to play across a more manageable line - sideways, or if necessary, backward. Bunkers are hazards. That said, deep bunkers  (say 4 feet / or a metre or so) are obviously tough and multiple attempts at recovery does take time. I have seen many women golfers and seniors also, continue to play until they run out of stableford stokes, then pickup. In stroke play these bunkers can destroy an otherwise good score altogether. On the other hand I have often watched a golfer persist with the challenge a steep face presents when the solution could be easily found by approaching the recovery via a different angle.

One of the bigger problems encountered with bunkers - for seniors in particular, is access and egress from deep surrounds. In most cases I believe a good design solution will provide manageable access to the sand from the rear or side of a bunker, while still presenting the necessary challenge at the face.

Thomas Dai makes a good point about heavy rakes - an unnecessary impediment to players raking after play.

Heavy Rough:
Penal, difficult to manage, slows play, not fun.
Does nothing to encourage player enjoyment.

Mounds / sharper slopes:
Many typical women and senior golfers whose ball has come to rest on the steep upslope or downslope of a mound struggle to recover well, particularly from longer grasses. If such mounds are a part of the natural topography so be it - however if they are artificial and serve no clear purpose then perhaps the course is better off without them, or perhaps the decision makers might consider having the slopes reduced.

We do not need to dumb down courses to address these issues - in most cases we just need to think a little more broadly. Good question - thanks for asking.

Lyne

Doug Siebert

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2013, 10:37:06 PM »
Long carries!
Around 65 yards / 60 metres is a fair length for the average female golfer to tackle on a carry. Longer than this and trouble may arise for the shortest hitters - particularly where water, wetlands, waste areas, sand and/or heavy rough are encountered.

Long carries do not only occur from off the tee - they may also present at a point along the fairway corridor. It is not very satisfactory for these golfers to have to play - for example; driver, seven iron, five wood, seven iron, to find a par four green – all because these players must negotiate a cross hazard at a mid-point in the fairway. Better to consider a broader spectrum of player when setting out the golf hole and paying closer attention to the position of the tees.

The problems associated with long carries lead to reduced levels of enjoyment, lost balls and an overall slower pace of play - these negatives impact the 'fun factor' of golf, the reputation of a course, levels of participation and return play.


Here's the issue I have with short forced carries for short hitters, based on the experience of watching my dad play the last few years.  It is not always easy to know exactly how far it is to a given feature, and hitting a shot to get close enough to the edge where it can be carried.  The only shot worse than a forced layup is a forced layup of 50 yards.  Well, maybe the forced layup of 50 yards that is hit 51 yards because it looked like 40 or 45 yards to 79 year old eyes is worse :)

Its not a problem for forced carries off the tee, since you pretty much know where the golfer will be starting at, so as long the guy setting the tees recognizes when a hole is playing into the wind and doesn't put the front tees as far back as they go and make the carry play far longer than it was intended to be.

We always talk in GCA about how holes with two fairways rarely offer the strategic value seemingly intended by the architect.  It is supposed to offer players a choice, but in reality there is usually one route that is always the better choice, at least when discussing strategy for better/longer players.  Using two fairways to present the longer/better player with the carry hazard, along with a tee for shorter players that points them down a fairway with a lesser/no carry hazard may be a potential solution.  Where the land allows, at least.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2013, 04:03:59 PM »

Here's the issue I have with short forced carries for short hitters, based on the experience of watching my dad play the last few years.  It is not always easy to know exactly how far it is to a given feature, and hitting a shot to get close enough to the edge where it can be carried.  The only shot worse than a forced layup is a forced layup of 50 yards.  Well, maybe the forced layup of 50 yards that is hit 51 yards because it looked like 40 or 45 yards to 79 year old eyes is worse :)

Its not a problem for forced carries off the tee, since you pretty much know where the golfer will be starting at, so as long the guy setting the tees recognizes when a hole is playing into the wind and doesn't put the front tees as far back as they go and make the carry play far longer than it was intended to be.

We always talk in GCA about how holes with two fairways rarely offer the strategic value seemingly intended by the architect.  It is supposed to offer players a choice, but in reality there is usually one route that is always the better choice, at least when discussing strategy for better/longer players.  Using two fairways to present the longer/better player with the carry hazard, along with a tee for shorter players that points them down a fairway with a lesser/no carry hazard may be a potential solution.  Where the land allows, at least.


This is why cross bunkers have gone out of style (to Patrick Mucci's lament), and why Pete Dye almost never builds a hole with a forced carry on the second shot (or third shot) -- because Alice Dye hates watching women hit 50-yard lay-up shots.

Sean_A

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2013, 06:47:54 PM »
This is why cross bunkers have gone out of style (to Patrick Mucci's lament) and mine!  Golf can't be all things to all people.  If used judiciously, cross bunkers (much like any hazard) are a great hazard.  Anytime an archie makes hard fast rules based on a certain golfing segment, there is sure to be unnecessary repitition.  

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2013, 07:28:15 PM »
This is why cross bunkers have gone out of style (to Patrick Mucci's lament) and mine!  Golf can't be all things to all people.  If used judiciously, cross bunkers (much like any hazard) are a great hazard.  Anytime an archie makes hard fast rules based on a certain golfing segment, there is sure to be unnecessary repitition.  

Ciao  

When given ground such as that found at the Bandon Resort, there is sure to not be unnecessary repetition even if rules against cross hazards are adhered to without fail.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

BCowan

Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2013, 12:05:28 AM »
When given ground such as that found at the Bandon Resort, there is sure to not be unnecessary repetition even if rules against cross hazards are adhered to without fail.

    Not all courses are built on world class land...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2013, 12:36:36 AM »

This is why cross bunkers have gone out of style (to Patrick Mucci's lament), and why Pete Dye almost never builds a hole with a forced carry on the second shot (or third shot) -- because Alice Dye hates watching women hit 50-yard lay-up shots.

Tom, sad but true, I do lament the demise and scarcity of cross bunkers.

Not long ago, I had to lay up on # 7 at Seminole.
I didn't have to, but, I elected to.
After laying up, I dropped a ball and hit my 3-wood to the shorter side of the pond and cleared it easily, by 3 feet.
I never had to lay up on that hole before, but, we had a good 2-3 club wind and while I hit a good drive, I didn't hit a low boring draw
that would have brought me 20-30 yards closer to the green.

Later I reflected on having to lay up.

If you view a round of golf as the architect's thorough examination of your game, I think having to make that decision should exist somewhere on every course.

Having to decide to challenge a feature or capitulate to it's strength is a wonderful mental and physical exercise.

Today, someone sent me an email about my generation.
I'm going to include it below.

Have golfers become wimps, complaining and whining about what they perceive is too difficult or demanding ?
Or god forbid, unfair ?

To a degree, I think so.

When I think of the guys playing Hollywood and Pine Valley, with balls and equipment in the early 20th century, it sheds a different light on meeting a challenge and not whining about it


Long rant follows  ;D

First, we survived being born to mothers who may have smoked and/or drank
while they were pregnant.
 
They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can, and didn't get tested for diabetes.
 
Then, after that trauma, we were
put to sleep on our tummies
in baby cribs covered
with bright coloured lead-based paints.
 
We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, locks on doors or cabinets,
and, when we rode our bikes,
we had baseball caps,
not helmets, on our heads.
 
As infants and children, we would ride in cars with no car seats, no booster seats, no seat belts, no air bags, bald tires and sometimes no brakes..
 
Riding in the back of a pick- up truck on a warm day was always a special treat.
 
We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle.
 
We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle, and no one actually died from this.
 
We ate cupcakes, white bread, real butter, and bacon. We drank Kool-Aid made with real white sugar. And we weren't overweight.
WHY?
 
Because we were always outside playing...that's why!
 
We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on.
No one was able to reach us all day.
--And, we were OKAY.
 
We would spend hours building
our go-carts out of scraps
and then ride them down the hill,
only to find out we forgot the brakes.. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem..
 
We did not have Play Stations, Nintendos and X-boxes. There were
no video games, no 150 channels on cable,
no video movies or DVDs,
no surround-sound or CDs,
no cell phones,
no personal computers,
no Internet and no chat rooms.
 
WE HAD FRIENDS
and we went outside and found them!
 
We fell out of trees, got cut,
broke bones and teeth,
and there were no lawsuits from those accidents.
We would get spankings with wooden spoons, switches, ping-pong paddles, or just a bare hand, and no one would call child services to report abuse.
 
We ate worms, and mud pies
made from dirt, and
the worms did not live in us forever.
 
We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls, and
-although we were told it would happen- we did not put out very many eyes.
 
We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just walked in and talked to them.
 
Little League had tryouts
and not everyone made the team.
Those who didn't had to learn
to deal with disappointment.
 
Imagine that!!
 
The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law!
 
These generations have produced some of the best risk-takers,
problem solvers, and inventors ever.
 
The past 50 to 85 years have seen an explosion of innovation and new ideas..
 
We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all.

Including difficult features and holes on a golf course.

End of rant  ;D
[/quote]
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 12:38:13 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Doug Siebert

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2013, 01:36:32 AM »
This is why cross bunkers have gone out of style (to Patrick Mucci's lament), and why Pete Dye almost never builds a hole with a forced carry on the second shot (or third shot) -- because Alice Dye hates watching women hit 50-yard lay-up shots.


So long as it leaves one side comprising roughly half the fairway open, it shouldn't matter, they can get around it.

I think pot bunkers make a better hazard than a larger cross bunker (at least of the type typically seen in the US) because the penalty of not being able to reach the green in regulation makes a pot bunker far more severe for a good player than a regular bunker which is about equivalent in penalty to being in the first cut.  At the same time, a pot bunker hurts a poor player less because it is a lot easier to avoid something 12 feet wide than it is to avoid something 80 feet wide, especially given that the shorter hitters are facing it from 50-150 yards away rather than 250-300 yards away.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Philip Gawith

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Re: Female GCA Posters
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2013, 03:43:48 AM »
Lyne, I think we have exchanged notes before on the topic of courses/women golfers. Everything you say resonates with the experience of my wife who probably plays off about a 25 handicap, albeit maybe hits a bit further than some of your assumptions. But the fact remains that many par fours are out of range in two, many par fives out of range in three, these holes are just wood after wood - and hence a slog. And if you are slogging then the finer issues of GCA connoisseurship do not enter!

At my very traditional home course she has to play about 5800 yards whereas the length she will play on a better designed modern course is closer to 5,000 yards or less - and her enjoyment is exponentially higher.

I love Tom's idea of a course designed only for women by the criteria he mentions. That really would be something to see.

Philip