[Jason Thurman]

A month or so ago, John Kavanaugh dropped a fantastic thread pitting Dismal River Red vs Ballyneal in a “boxing match.” Josh Tarble did a similar matchup between Kingsley and Crystal Downs.

It’s an exhausting process to evaluate courses in such detail, and there are some admitted drawbacks to looking at holes in isolation as opposed to as part of a whole. I still find it fun though, and the threads generated a lot of interest and even a bit of controversy.

With the golf season winding down in much of the country, and completely over in America’s Dairyland, perhaps the energy to tackle a bigger undertaking can be mustered. Wisconsin has four great public courses. Let’s see which rates best on a hole-by-hole basis.

The contenders:

Whistling Straits (Straits)
Erin Hills
Lawsonia Links
Blackwolf Run Composite (in the first controversial decision of this thread, I’ve chosen to examine the composite course in its most recent tournament iteration simply because I think it’s the most naturally flowing routing at Blackwolf Run, and also because I think the back 9 at Meadow-Valleys is easily the best 9 at the complex and it would be criminal to leave it out even though the front nine has no business in this battle)

I’ll be scoring each hole on a 1-10 RELATIVE scale. Like the boxing scoring that John pioneered, the winning hole of each matchup will be awarded a score of 10. The other holes will be scored relative to that hole on a staggered scale. As in boxing, a hole that simply wins a round over another is awarded a one point differential in that round. A hole that knocks its opponent down while winning a round is awarded a two point differential. A hole that thoroughly dominates its opponent with multiple knockdowns while winning a round is awarded a three point differential. Ties are frowned upon. While the scoring sounds complicated, it’s not as bad as it sounds. As practice, let’s score the clubhouses:

Whistling Straits has a great one. Great views of the course. Well stocked pro shop. Above average food. Exceptional restrooms.

Blackwolf Run also has a great one. You can see a few more holes than at the Straits, and the food and bathrooms are at least equally good. I’d also consider the scenery a bit better. You can’t see the lake at the Straits, but you can see the river at Blackwolf Run.

Lawsonia’s pro shop is excellent, and they’ve finally started to serve beer I believe. It’s a pretty standard clubhouse overall though, and just can’t match up to its big brothers farther east.

Erin Hills has a wonderful building, but it’s really freakin’ far from the course and not all that close to the range either.

Scorecard:
Blackwolf Run – 10
Whistling Straits – 9
Lawsonia – 7
Erin Hills – 6

Any and all are invited to participate in scoring and commentary. If you haven't played all four courses, feel free to score just the ones you have. 'Tis the season to be merry after all, and the more the merrier. I'll post Round 1 tomorrow.

[John Kavanaugh]

I remember Erin Hills as a dimly lit pub with an eclectic beer selection and world class lodging. Lawsonia felt like sterile state sponsored mental health facility selling cures based on outdated Christian propaganda.

Erin Hills 10
Lawsonia  7

[Jason Thurman]

Round 1:

This Royal Rumble starts with a bit of a whimper. Four good holes by my estimation, but nothing truly exceptional.

The first at Whistling Straits might be the most restrained moment on the course. Like the opener at Pebble Beach, it serves its purpose of getting us away from the clubhouse nicely but with a lack of panache. Considering the audacity to follow, one would be forgiven for having forgotten this hole within 5 ½ hours of playing it. However, it has a pretty nice green site with some decent movement and interesting short game options.

Erin Hills’ first has evolved into an above-average opener, but it still feels mostly like a function of the wetland that separates it from the clubhouse. It drapes nicely over the terrain and has some beautiful bunkering. Like the Straits, the green flows nicely out of the fairway and seems to encourage the ground game. Also like the Straits, however, I feel like the hole really only exists to get us to what lies at the second tee.

Lawsonia’s first has arguably the most awkward tee shot in Wisconsin. Hit a ball arbitrarily at the horizon (the telephone pole on a line with the right side of the fairway makes a nice aiming point for the first timer). The fairway seems blind, but really it’s just so flat that it’s hard to believe. The hole really comes alive on the second shot though, when the player realizes that he needed to hug the treeline right off the tee to get the best angle of approach into one of the most severely perched greens on the course. It’s set at such an angle that it’s hard to even decide which side of the green is the front and which is the back, but I would describe the slope as significantly right to left.

What do you say about the first at Blackwolf Run? How do you evaluate a hole that is closed for play almost all the time (Erin Hills haters might make a sarcastic joke in response to this question)?  Personally, I love the green and the greensite. The overall routing of the hole, though, just feels a bit too one-dimensional for me. Again, I find a transition hole easily justified by the holes that follow it, but lacking a bit on its own.

It’s a bit of a rockfight between four courses that are feeling each other out early. My winner has changed since I started typing, and a hole that I previously didn’t care for much has revealed a few qualities as a result of my giving it a bit of thought in writing about it. I wouldn’t argue if someone had my rankings reversed though.

Scorecard:

Lawsonia – 10
Whistling Straits – 9
Erin Hills – 8
Blackwolf Run – 7

[Matthew Lloyd]

As somebody who attended UW-Madison before most of these courses were built, I've been meaning to get back to those old stomping grounds to play all these courses.  So while I have nothing substantive to add to the thread, I'm eager to follow along as research for how to best plot my Wisconsin reunion in the next year or so.  Thanks for getting this started.

[Josh Tarble]

Good thread...looking forward to hearing your thoughts.  I haven't played Lawsonia yet, so unable to comment on that but having played the other three I have some thoughts:

BWR - I think you're severely underrating #1.  I personally think it's one of the better holes on the course..if a tad one-dimensional but still a very solid par 5.  8

WS - I think you stated this pretty well.  Nothing that will drop your jaw, and with what comes after, not as memorable but an excellent green complex .  7

EH - I am still not sure how I feel about #1 - definitely works as more of a championship test than a resort course - a brutally long and difficult hole, and one of the holes that I felt would be much improved with a little additional width, but I really liked the green and surrounds.  7
 - Note, I feel really sorry for the players that are going to start on #10 during the EH Open. 18 followed by 1 is going to be 10 difficult shots in a row.

[Jason Thurman]

BWR - I think you're severely underrating #1.  I personally think it's one of the better holes on the course..if a tad one-dimensional but still a very solid par 5.  8

You’re talking about #1 on the River course. I’m scoring the Composite, so #1 River will be my #10. #1 Composite is that weird par 4 with the way uphill approach that usually isn’t open for play. For the record, #1 River would easily win this round for me if included. It will have a harder time winning the 10th round against three other pretty exceptional holes.

I know you haven’t played Meadow Valleys, so feel free to score just the River. In fact, it really bothers me that I’m leaving out holes 5-13 at the River by scoring the Composite instead. They form one of the most fun stretches of golf that I’ve ever played. Unfortunately for them, the back nine at Meadow Valleys is even more fun and I didn’t want to omit those either. If you score the River then it could be a good way to work those holes into this thread somehow. Some people will probably get confused, but how much confusion can you really add to a thread that’s already comparing four courses including one that has had around 6 iterations in the 10 years or so that it's been open?

[Josh Tarble]

Oh, fair enough....reading comprehension, I lack it.

Maybe I will just score the River course.  I think it's pretty damn good, and I'm already confused, so how can it get worse? 

[Jason Thurman]

Round 2

After pedestrian openers all around, the second hole at each course gives a wonderful introduction to what each will offer over the following 16.

Whistling Straits’ second plays alongside the lake for the first time, or at least that’s what you’ll think when you stand on the tee. A deceptive par 5, the hole offsets a bit once past the St. Enodoc-ish dune bunker on the right side. It’s a smart, challenging hole that first reveals the brilliance Pete Dye used when he staggered the terrain to create the illusion of 14 lakefront holes.

Erin Hills’ second might be the most unusual short 4 in Wisconsin. Drivable for huge hitters, the ideal tee shot feels almost as wide of the line to the green as it is long. Everyone will face at least one blind shot on this hole, and it may be the best test of blindness as a risk/reward element I’ve ever played. The tiny crowned green gets a lot of the attention, but the most compelling aspect of the hole for me is the way it rewards the player who will boldly go in a direction he cannot see.

Lawsonia’s second features an equally great blind tee shot, but this one far more straightforward than its counterpart in Hartford. Hitting a ball over the gap in the hilltop and then walking up to see the dairy barn below might be the greatest feeling on a course in the state. The final 80 yards of the hole are a low key delight with Moreau’s trademark shaping on display.

Blackwolf Run’s second (11 on Meadow-Valleys) features a cavernous bunker left that introduces the Raynor-esque element of the course for the first time. While among the mildest terrain on the course, it still has a nice switchback element and the area around the green heaves all over, making things difficult for the strong player who takes a rip for the putting surface on his second shot and misses. Blackwolf Run's most underrated element must be the green surroundings. Most feature a ton of undulation and a lot of awkward recovery shots.

Four stellar holes reveal one clear winner:

Erin Hills – 10
Whistling Straits – 9
Blackwolf Run – 8
Lawsonia – 7

Overall:

Whistling Straits - 18
Erin Hills – 18
Lawsonia – 17
Blackwolf Run – 15

[Phil McDade]

Jason:

Good to see you recognize the merit in the odd little hole that is Erin Hills #2. A fun hole on a course that's full of a lot of hard and tough ones. I'd rate the 2nd at Lawsonia ahead of the 2nd at Blackwolf Run, although it has the distinction of featuring one of only two greens at the old links not significantly pushed up from its surrounds. But it's a very good and tough putting surface -- I was reminded on my recent round there how much back-to-front tilt can be found on that green, with additional subtle sloping. A very good green that often gets overlooked at Lawsonia.

[Jason Thurman]

Phil, I love #2 at Lawsonia. It might have the best tee shot on the course. I went back and forth between the Straits, Lawsonia, and Blackwolf Run for which hole falls where after Erin Hills in this round. I wouldn't argue with them in any order, but on this day I just happen to be favoring the visually spectacular tee shot at Whistling Straits and the awesome green surroundings at Blackwolf Run.

As for Erin Hills, the second is just brilliant. For what should be an easy hole it has a ton of deception and risk and can obviously extract a large number just from ping-ponging chips across that tiny green. I look forward to seeing it at the 2017 US Open just to see how many strategies the pros find viable and which they predominantly choose.

[Jason Thurman]

Just to add a few pics to jog everyone's memory, including mine. Most of the ones I will use in this thread are pilfered from Joe Bausch's excellent Wisconsin golf thread a few years back. A few are my own, and a few are the result of Google Image searches.

Whistling Straits #1



Erin Hills #1



Lawsonia #1



Blackwolf Run #1




Straits #2



Erin Hills #2



Lawsonia #2



Blackwolf Run #2

[Jud_T]

OK-  I'm leaving the composite course out as I believe the only time I played the Meadow I had to bail after 9 when I had a horrible case of golfer's elbow, although I reserve the right to comment on holes I remember well:

#1     LL 10- Great opener, if a bit tougher than I'd normally prefer.  Wonderfully pitched green, and a fairway bunker that comes into play more than most, at least for my mediocre abilities.
      WS   9-  I remember this hole fondly, really good short 4, with a nice pucker factor on the approach.  As I recall long of this green is no bargain.
       EH  8-  Also really like this hole, but it's a bit of a slog off the tee.  I like the way the approach falls down to the green.  This is one of the few instances where I actually preferred the hole before the tree came down, when it was less of a bomb and gouge proposition.

#2    EH  10-  Was an 11 before they F%^&ed around with one of the best natural greens ever.
        WS   9-  Solid hole which visually brings you into Pete's LSD trip of a course
         LL  8-  Fun hole.  True blind tee shot, then cresting the hill one gets a relaxed sense of Wisconsin dairyland.  Approach is a little      tricky as one has to take the downhill into account for club selection.

Running total:    LL-  18
                       WS -18
                       EH- 18

[Josh Tarble]

Whistling Straits #2 - I think this is the best par 5 on the course and one of Dye's strongest that I've played.  It's a really exceptional hole.  The giant bunker/dune on the right dominates the drive and you must hug it to be able to get home in two.  The layup is interesting as is the green.  Really, really good.  - 10

Erin Hills #2 - Definitely one of my favorites on the course.  As Jason stated, it rewards the player that attacks the blindness, and you must on at least one of the shots.  I would guess for the really big hitters it may be driveable and the current green is awesome.  - 10

Blackwolf Run River #2 - This hole is ok, but nothing that really stands out about it.  I think the green is decent but nothing special - 5

[Jason Thurman]

Round 3

Whistling Straits:



With the first of several deft crossovers in the routing, Whistling Straits gives us a sterling middish length par 3 on the waterfront. We play a true lakefront hole for the first time, and a green with a ridge crossing its middle puts a premium on controlling ballflight with a shorter iron on the lakeshore. A judge must approach this hole as though he does not know what the future holds. On its own, the third at the Straits is a delightful and scenic par 3, though it follows a blueprint that eventually becomes a bit repetitive on the one-shotters at the Straits.

Erin Hills:



Erin Hills, meanwhile, roars the first of its many two-shot roars. The third can play from one of two angles, both of which present unmistakable tees mostly designed by God. The rumbling fairway and rugged bunkers put the course’s pure and unsurpassed brawn on clear display. This course is Joe Frazier, a stronger than life brute that wants a slugfest at any cost. I suspect those who love the course love the third hole, while detractors probably just find it arduous. Count me among the former.

Lawsonia:



Lawsonia’s third feels like a deviation from the gameplan. A drive that looks strategic turns out to be the least-so on the course. Just hit it straight and hit it a long way for the best angle into this green. The green itself is a signature Langford and Moreau volcano, but it just doesn’t do it for me. If Art Hills built this hole, we’d lambast it. I may be one of the biggest Langford fans on this site, but I find Lawsonia’s third to be its weakest hole by far.

Blackwolf Run:



Blackwolf Run, though, features one of the few holes that can stand toe-to-toe with Erin Hills’ third. A long, graceful par 4 that plays downhill off the tee and uphill on the approach, it also brings plenty of brawn. However, its real strength comes from a green complex that offers a referendum in defense without bunkers. Through three holes, Blackwolf Run has shown that we completely underrated its green complexes and surroundings coming into this matchup. It doesn’t know it’s a damn show. It thinks it’s a damn fight.

Scorecard:

Blackwolf Run – 10
Erin Hills – 9
Whistling Straits – 8
Lawsonia – 6

Overall:

Whistling Straits - 24
Erin Hills – 27
Lawsonia – 23
Blackwolf Run – 25

[Jud_T]

#3:

EH- 8.  A very good green, this is where one first gets a sense of how much of a slog it is going to be to walk this course.  A bit OTT, but a good hole nevertheless.
WS- 7.  A bit unmemorable as another manmade lakefront hole but a solid one with an interesting green.  Get the camera out, pat yourself on the back for notching another bedpost and move on...
LL- 7:  Jason, I think you are significantly underrating the 3rd.  Isn't the best angle in hugging the treeline on the right, while the bailout is long and left?  Perhaps time and technology have taken the bite out of this tee shot for folks like yourself.   And this is a VERY good green IMO.

Running total:

EH-  26
LL-   25
WS- 25

[Jason Thurman]

Lawsonia's 3rd IS a great green. No doubt about that.

You're right, though, that technology has taken the bite out of this hole. I guess the ideal approach with balls that didn't spin much or for a shorter hitter would come from near the bunker. The green has a pretty significant back to front slope from that angle. However, it also requires clearing a greenside bunker on the approach and doesn't offer much depth, and I don't like the feel of the shot visually. It feels too much like the ornamental tree on the right side of the green comes into play and I just can't see the target very well from that angle.

I played the hole with a 3w the first few times I tackled it. I think on my third round out there I figured I'd just blast a driver. I can easily get within 100 yards that way, take the fairway bunker and greenside bunkers out of play, and leave a simple wedge approach on line with the fronting short grass. That tilt in the green just doesn't matter much when you can hit a high wedge that drops and stops, and I like the visual from that angle much better.

[Jud_T]

Time for you and Josh to take up hickories:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Hickory-Wood-Shaft-Tom-Stewart-7-Club-Ironset-Golf-Clubs-/181266434583?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a34524a17

[PCCraig]

I'd say Blackwolf Run has the best #1, Erin Hills has the best #2, and Lawsonia has the best #3 (I don't agree that the tee shot is nonstrategic).

[Howard Riefs]

Nice thread. Wish I've played Lawsonia and the most recent iteration of Erin Hills.

Some more photos of Straits and River (not combined course) from our GCA outing in May:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55210.msg1290582.html#msg1290582

[Josh Tarble]

Jud, I think you're severely under rating #3 at WS.  I know your opinion of the place so am unlikely to argue with you, but I think, as a set, the par 3s are as varied as Pete Dye has built.  I am consistently let down by the 3s at most of his courses, but at WS find them to be excellent.  The green at WS is what makes the hole.  The huge spine in the center is a great feature.  Slopes towards the tee in front and all away towards the back, distance control is at a premium.  


One of the really key things about Whistling Straits, is how nuanced the course is for being totally created.  There are micro-features such as #3s spine on every hole that really make the course as great as it is.



I also thought #3 at Erin Hills was excellent.  I will say one thing about EH, it has more holes that I've never seen anything similar than any other course I've played.  There are some really daring holes out there.

BWR-River #3 is a nice take on Dye's "templated" cape style hole.  No water, rather a large sandy waste bunker.  Nothing offensive, nothing spectacular.

WS - 7
EH - 8
BWR - 5

[Phil McDade]

#2    EH  10-  Was an 11 before they F%^&ed around with one of the best natural greens ever.
        

Jud:

Isn't there an argument that EH's #2 green was really just too small for what they were trying to accomplish there? That's still one of -- if not the -- smallest greens I've seen on a course that's more than $15 to play. It was a blast to watch the US Ams try to figure out their short games around that green a few years ago. It still has a lot of interest and "strategery" about it; it came close to being silly -- naturalism for naturalism's sake -- before.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

I thought it was Kettle Morain's answer to Bandon Trails 14.  I was under the impression that they changed it to get more pinable area not because it was too severe.

Josh,

You're right upon further thought.  Adjustment made above.  Besides, I have to allow for a couple real stinkers yet to come .

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

I thought it was Kettle Morain's answer to Bandon Trails 14.  I was under the impression that they changed it to get more pinable area not because it was too severe.

Josh,

You're right upon further thought.  Adjustment made above.  Besides, I have to allow for a couple real stinkers to follow .

I haven't seen BT's 14th.

You want a small green that's challenging, not gimmicky, in which outcomes are based on luck. The original green seemed more of the latter. The enlarged green was a challenge to the Amateurs, some of whom did the ping-pong routine that Jason describes. But -- others handled it with imaginative play.

But -- I also think you're correct that the USGA folks probably wanted more pinnable areas that what they could get out of the original green.

[Jason Thurman]

Round 4

Each course begins to weave its real narrative in the fourth round.



Whistling Straits’ embodies power and guile. Rip a drive here that hugs the left side of the landing area or challenges the left bunkers, and you'll catch a speed slot with amazing micro-contours for a course so heavily shaped. What looks straightforward and hard on the scorecard reveals itself to be hard but surprisingly full of strategy in practice.



Erin Hills’ fourth puts elasticity on full display. I suspect they’ll move the tees all over the place on this hole in the US Open in 2017. They certainly did at the 2011 Amateur. Bunkers short dominate the visuals and make it one of the most aesthetically pleasing holes on the course. The green also holds plenty of fallaway interest. But I somehow feel like the playing qualities just don’t quite work like they should. I love it, but with a few reservations.



Contrast it with the fourth at Lawsonia. Uphill and long, it’s almost ugly from the tee. It certainly looks daunting. Yet, it offers one of the most interesting tee shots on the course and provides the first of a tremendous set of par 3s. Am I biased because the hole rewards a slinging hook? Yeah, I am.



The fourth at Blackwolf Run takes a different approach. Its competitors in this round largely reward power. This one rewards execution in the face of pure diceyness. The tee shot, truthfully, probably doesn’t even need to exist. Hit the ball somewhere between 200 and 250 yards on pretty much any line that will finish in the fairway. The real challenge here is hitting a high iron shot with perfect distance control that stops quickly. It’s a quirky hole that would fit right in as part of the delightfully fun and borderline nonsensical loop from 5-13 on the River course.

Picking a winner here feels unfair and in direct opposition to the first hole. Every course sleepwalked through the first round. Here in the fourth, they all turn in sterling performances. I wouldn’t dismiss any ordering here, but I come up with this one:

Whistling Straits – 10
Lawsonia – 9
Erin Hills – 8
Blackwolf Run – 7

Overall

Whistling Straits - 34
Erin Hills – 35
Lawsonia – 32
Blackwolf Run – 32

[Josh Tarble]

Jason,
I'm glad you said that about hole 4 at Erin Hills.  It looks like it should be a great hole, has all the features that should make a very strategic 4, and yet it really doesn't work in my opinion.  I liked the false front, I liked the centerline bunkers, but there was just something about it that didn't feel like a great hole to me.  Perhaps it was the placement of the centerline bunkers, not close enough to the tee, not close enough to the green.  What it resulted in for me was get as close to the bunker as possible then hit a high soft shot that couldn't be short.   This is one that perhaps needs more than a couple plays to really figure out, but for one play I didn't love it as much as I thought I would.

4 at WS is a really good one as you said.  Lay back to the wide portion of the fairway and face a difficult second.  Attack on the right side and have an open look.  Really good with great movement as you stated.

I'm not sure if 4 at BWR River was the first of Dye's "cape" style par 3s, if so I can maybe forgive it a little, as it is a good concept once.  But I feel like the same par 3 is on every Dye course ever built.  At BWR it feels dated, out of place and boring.  I know it was added later and perhaps it was the best of many bad options but man do I hate this hole and this style of hole.  

WS - 9
EH - 6
BWR - 1

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