[Steven Blake]

John,

So what is your solution to dead greens?

Steve Blake

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm driving. I will respond when I am at a secure location. I don't want to get in a car wreck because my Mommy isn't around to blow on my owey like when I was a child. Funny how modern medicine has advanced.

[Aaron McMaster]

If fans had never been allowed tree management would be a decade ahead of we are today. Mo fans, mo trees.

I admit John you have passion but I think it may be misguided in certain situations.  We never had a fan, never had a serious circulation problem, we didn't remove trees to accomplish any of this during our renovation.  However, for the first eight years I was doing removals, you'd have thought I was taking their first born.

I know your correlation doesn't exist for our neck of the woods since I've never seen a fan on a green in the detroit area yet cutting trees up until the last five years was just plain sacrilegious.  I will certainly agree that this conversation has taken place.....super we need to remove these trees to improve the health of this green....members, that's not possible what else can we do....super we can install a fan.  Ulitmately, it's the owners/members course so we try, maybe to a fault at times to honor their wishes.

[Steven Blake]

Mr. McMaster,

Well said, one can always critiize from afar but superintendents have to work within the parameters with which they are given.

Steve Blake

[Ulrich Mayring]

I have never seen fans on a golf course anywhere. Where are they deployed except in the US?

Is this a self-made, US-only problem or do I have to worry that it will be imported to Europe like Burger King and Donald Trump?

Ulrich

[David_Tepper]

"Optimizing The Turf Grass Canopy Environment With Fans"

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/management/greens/Optimizing-The-Turfgrass-Canopy-Environment-With-Fans/

[Terry Lavin]

"Optimizing The Turf Grass Canopy Environment With Fans"

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/management/greens/Optimizing-The-Turfgrass-Canopy-Environment-With-Fans/

Couldn't read it because the first section uses "affect" where "effect" should've been used. Lost all credibility with me.

More to the point, this document seems to be aimed at clubs that stubbornly refuse to cut down trees that cast too much shade on greens. If you're going the USGA spec route and planting new strains of bent but are not dealing with shade issues, you're asking for trouble. Or fans.

[Aaron McMaster]

"Optimizing The Turf Grass Canopy Environment With Fans"

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/management/greens/Optimizing-The-Turfgrass-Canopy-Environment-With-Fans/

Couldn't read it because the first section uses "affect" where "effect" should've been used. Lost all credibility with me.

More to the point, this document seems to be aimed at clubs that stubbornly refuse to cut down trees that cast too much shade on greens. If you're going the USGA spec route and planting new strains of bent but are not dealing with shade issues, you're asking for trouble. Or fans.

No amount of fans will fix shade issues on bent or Bermuda, USGA spec or not.  You want good greens get rid of the trees.  

[Mike Sweeney]

I'm driving. I will respond when I am at a secure location. I don't want to get in a car wreck because my Mommy isn't around to blow on my owey like when I was a child. Funny how modern medicine has advanced.

What are you driving to Seminole?

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm home on my iPad. I can not address serious issues on a tablet with my wife sitting next to me. If I get out of this seat and go to the desktop she will force me to help put up the Christmas tree. Tomorrow, patience.

[Mark Steffey]

are not christmas trees supposed to grow in peace until AFTER thanksgiving?!?!?

[John Kavanaugh]

are not christmas trees supposed to grow in peace until AFTER thanksgiving?!?!?

I learned a long time ago to not ask questions about things that I don't want to know the answer. I've heard rumors that because Thanksgiving is coming so late that it is kosher to put up Christmas decorations early. I can see the corner of the box that the tree is in from my seat. I can't even get up to piss.

[William_G]

This is the first season in which I removed all 8 fans from the course once the summer season was safely behind us.  Prior to this year I had always left them in place and covered them.  Last year my equipment manager brought our 2 oldest fans in for maintenance and painting, once I saw those two holes without the fans I knew we must bring them all in from now on.  The fact is we only run them on average between 12-16 weeks out of the year depending on conditions, thus I owe it to my members to provide them the opportunity to play and enjoy the course without those behemoths in place.

They are a valuable tool, but as a lover of the game and the architecture even I appreciate the beauty when they are not there!  

temporary turf fans, great job!

does the sub-air system help with regard to the turf issue in inclimate climates?

[Terry Lavin]

"Optimizing The Turf Grass Canopy Environment With Fans"

http://www.usga.org/course_care/articles/management/greens/Optimizing-The-Turfgrass-Canopy-Environment-With-Fans/

Couldn't read it because the first section uses "affect" where "effect" should've been used. Lost all credibility with me.

More to the point, this document seems to be aimed at clubs that stubbornly refuse to cut down trees that cast too much shade on greens. If you're going the USGA spec route and planting new strains of bent but are not dealing with shade issues, you're asking for trouble. Or fans.

No amount of fans will fix shade issues on bent or Bermuda, USGA spec or not.  You want good greens get rid of the trees.  

Better stated. Thanks.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sadly the typical scenario goes, greens die, fans installed, trees removed. It is a death spiral whose main goal is job survival. The large loud fans look like progress. Any intelligent customer can see that tree removal could have been done first so it is best kept on the down low until the greens recover. My contention is that tree removal would have been enough in the first place. No one who spent the money on the fans will ever admit that they weren't needed. The fans get the glory, they "earned" it.

[Ben Lovett]

I am based in Turkey and when I arrived had 10 fans on my bentgrass greens. We peaked this year at 49.c and are regulary over 40.c over the summer months with 30.c overnight. Luckily it is my low season and we are able to back of on the maintenance practices. We have also undertaken a large tree management project. I still however keep my fans on standby in case of extreme heat\humidity and last year converted them from stand alone to mobile units with a misting system.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Sadly the typical scenario goes, greens die, fans installed, trees removed. It is a death spiral whose main goal is job survival. The large loud fans look like progress. Any intelligent customer can see that tree removal could have been done first so it is best kept on the down low until the greens recover. My contention is that tree removal would have been enough in the first place. No one who spent the money on the fans will ever admit that they weren't needed. The fans get the glory, they "earned" it.

John,
  I cant wait for your answer to this. Please explain to me then why Oakmont, who removed 4000+ trees in the last 15 year or so, to the point where there isn't really any left on property, still has the need to use fans? You cant comment on the Superintendent-JZ is widely considered one of the best in the business for providing US Open conditions on a daily basis and the fastest greens in the country. I was there in 2010 for the Women's Open and portable fans were set up and they have continued to use them because of the response in the turf. Not a tree on property, still using fans. Please tell me what your theory is.

[Mike Sweeney]

Sadly the typical scenario goes, greens die, fans installed, trees removed. It is a death spiral whose main goal is job survival. The large loud fans look like progress. Any intelligent customer can see that tree removal could have been done first so it is best kept on the down low until the greens recover. My contention is that tree removal would have been enough in the first place. No one who spent the money on the fans will ever admit that they weren't needed. The fans get the glory, they "earned" it.

John,
  I cant wait for your answer to this. Please explain to me then why Oakmont, who removed 4000+ trees in the last 15 year or so, to the point where there isn't really any left on property, still has the need to use fans? You cant comment on the Superintendent-JZ is widely considered one of the best in the business for providing US Open conditions on a daily basis and the fastest greens in the country. I was there in 2010 for the Women's Open and portable fans were set up and they have continued to use them because of the response in the turf. Not a tree on property, still using fans. Please tell me what your theory is.

Anthony,

At the risk of making Jaka sound like a smart guy, it really is pretty simple. Oakmont does not need fans, they just need to dial the greens down to 10.5.

Merion flattened 2 or 3 greens for speed. Oakmont is using fans to maintain speed. This is the entire point of Don's thread, "How loud should we speak up?"

The standard reply from the industry is "that is what the members want."

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=57300.0

In the words of Don, "Speak Up".  

Oakmont was THE "thought leader" in the industry when they took out all of their trees. Many of us read the story about how they took out trees in the winter at night so that members do not get upset. Now maybe Oakmont can be the "thought leader" and remove the fans and dial down the speed of the greens.

I am a lucky guy, Yale does not have the money to rip out all the trees (many are gone) or redo greens, so they peak out at 10.5, I think. Too much money is a real problem in golf, imo.

This kind of reminds me of a visit to the doctor. "Mike, lose 10 pounds or go on blood pressure medication." I lost the the 10 lbs rather than go on medication.

Oakmont has a similar choice, more fans or less speed…. I get it, members are stupid, don't understand…

I just finished doing the winter cut on 5 acres in Connecticut as our lawn guy got sick this fall. I really do appreciate the greenskeepers here and elsewhere this fall!

[David Davis]

I had the same question about Subair as William. Does this system circumvent the usage of fans in really humid and warm environments? John is not in favor of the fans, that's clear here but on the other hand his job is not on the line if the greens go to hell in a hand basket as a result of not using them or letting the greens slow down till the point the membership is not happy. I understand how he might feel from the perspective of having a completely different opinion than the course of action that is being taken and ending up having to pay for this against your will thinking there is a much better solution.

Without the expertise of those involved in this thread I'd like to try to add to it with a relevant and current situation from my own club since I can't talk about your clubs or clubs in the South of the US with warm humid climates. John may well have a heart attack.

Sand based links turf. Colonial bent greens. 5 holes in the trees, the rest open links holes with no trees. Obvious solution, tree removal. Not a short term option. We are facing a 100% ban on chemicals, read 100%. Two different environments exits. Average temps between 45 low and 75 high. Wet maritime climate. Agronomist is suggesting:

Sub-air
USGA specs
Turf Guard Soil Monitoring System

With all greens in the trees 2 of which will soon be moved and renovated.

Greens in the trees, don't receive enough light and/or air in the winter months but we don't have the extreme conditions of the South of the US.

maybe we need fans as well....(sarcastic BUT) I think I will suggest it.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Sadly the typical scenario goes, greens die, fans installed, trees removed. It is a death spiral whose main goal is job survival. The large loud fans look like progress. Any intelligent customer can see that tree removal could have been done first so it is best kept on the down low until the greens recover. My contention is that tree removal would have been enough in the first place. No one who spent the money on the fans will ever admit that they weren't needed. The fans get the glory, they "earned" it.

John,
  I cant wait for your answer to this. Please explain to me then why Oakmont, who removed 4000+ trees in the last 15 year or so, to the point where there isn't really any left on property, still has the need to use fans? You cant comment on the Superintendent-JZ is widely considered one of the best in the business for providing US Open conditions on a daily basis and the fastest greens in the country. I was there in 2010 for the Women's Open and portable fans were set up and they have continued to use them because of the response in the turf. Not a tree on property, still using fans. Please tell me what your theory is.

Anthony,

At the risk of making Jaka sound like a smart guy, it really is pretty simple. Oakmont does not need fans, they just need to dial the greens down to 10.5.

Merion flattened 2 or 3 greens for speed. Oakmont is using fans to maintain speed. This is the entire point of Don's thread, "How loud should we speak up?"

Mike,
  I commented on this several posts ago that if the turf was allowed to be maintained at a higher height, this would be a different, but 99% of golfers, especially at Oakmont, demand faster greens. Their greens have always been among the fastest in the country.

[John Kavanaugh]

100% of all golfers would love to play Oakmont exactly how Johnny Miller found her set up for the 73 Open. No fans needed then.

[Anthony_Nysse]

100% of all golfers would love to play Oakmont exactly how Johnny Miller found her set up for the 73 Open. No fans needed then.

This one wouldn't, so that's not 100%. Did you want to answer my question about Oakmont/Tree Removal and fans? Seems throw your theory out the window, but you're skirting around it.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,
  I commented on this several posts ago that if the turf was allowed to be maintained at a higher height, this would be a different, but 99% of golfers, especially at Oakmont, demand faster greens. Their greens have always been among the fastest in the country.

Anthony,

This is the circle jerk that John was referring to. By saying 99%, when you have no real data to support that data, you minimize the membership.

Over on the Black Mesa thread, this was posted.

Two interesting videos from Pat Brockwell, the super at Black Mesa, regarding the conditioning issues, particularly grubs. He is optimistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYOEb3cBEO0&list=UUS-NJYb4Ln2BjMRYsMy33cw&index=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiicLCwzsOE&list=UUS-NJYb4Ln2BjMRYsMy33cw&index=1

Now it would have been very easy to look at that thread and say, "I'll pass on Black Mesa for now." Thankfully, Pat Brockwell took the time to educate his golfers. It is not a simple process to film and then upload to YouTube (boo YouTube ). Thankfully, Stewart posted those videos. I took the time to watch them, and if Black Mesa was in my neighborhood, I would make a special trip to play the course right now, because Pat took the time to educate his golfers what the issues are.

Same with Scott Ramsey at Yale, he send out some very detailed emails about the positives and negatives on Yale conditioning as he goes through the season. He had a tough summer but things bounced back in the fall, and we were all aware of the issues.

Obviously it is not 100%, but some members will read an email or Blog from the greens staff, and then they speak to other members. It is an education process and it takes time, but YOU have to be willing to take the time.

The concept that golfers and members are stupid or ignorant is not correct. People are busy and they have other priorities. Educating those people with take an enormous amount of time and energy, but a Blog  or email cost almost nothing to produce.

I would like to think Pat Brockwell is an example of what to do rather than what not to do. Mistakes happen when growing grass, education is the cure.

[Bradley Anderson]

John,

Think of the turf system as like a lantern:

The leaf blade is the wick
The fuel bottle is the soil
The kerosene is water from rain and irrigation

The flame is air flow from wind

When air flow moves across the surface of the green, the water is drawn out of the soil through the leaf blade. But when greens are surrounded by trees the air flow isn't adequate to draw the water out of the soil. These soils become waterlogged and the turf struggles for lack of oxygen in the soil. Healthy soil has a balance of air and water, but in an environment where air flow is greatly restricted the balance tips to water.

[Carl Nichols]

When is John going to take on carts and cart paths? 

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