[David_Tepper]

This thread reminds me of a past thread where a 22-handicap thought he knew more about the golf swing than a +3-handicap.

[Mike_Young]

I think Anthony says it best when he mentions the height of cut issue.  Growing up in Ga we had not many problems with bentgrass greens mowed at 1/4 inch.  So much of what has transpired with fans, greens construction, irrigation, mowers, rollers has all been brought about by a continual seeking of faster, lower HOC greens.  I hate the look and sound of fans but the fans aren't to blame.  

[Jim Nelson]

My home club in Vegas (Southern Highlands) added 4 fans this summer on greens that struggled nightly over the past few summers.  Two of the greens had nearly half their surfaces re-turfed.  Having been open for 13 years, what suddenly happened?  A couple of years in a row, we had very humid and hot periods towards the end of August and beginning of September.  This also marks the beginning of overseed, perhaps a bit early, but it is an attempt to satisfy the need for golf in October which is the best month for golf in Vegas.  We also have an abundance of trees which have grown up and have begun to block air moving across the green surfaces.  The superintendent has started aggressively begun to thin and remove certain trees around stressed greens for air flow and to get sun in during the winter months.  There is also talk of using the fans during the winter to keep frost off these greens.  Our super feels the fans made a huge difference this year.  For the record, SH has bent greens.

[Anthony_Nysse]

My home club in Vegas (Southern Highlands) added 4 fans this summer on greens that struggled nightly over the past few summers.  Two of the greens had nearly half their surfaces re-turfed.  Having been open for 13 years, what suddenly happened?  A couple of years in a row, we had very humid and hot periods towards the end of August and beginning of September.  This also marks the beginning of overseed, perhaps a bit early, but it is an attempt to satisfy the need for golf in October which is the best month for golf in Vegas.  We also have an abundance of trees which have grown up and have begun to block air moving across the green surfaces.  The superintendent has started aggressively begun to thin and remove certain trees around stressed greens for air flow and to get sun in during the winter months.  There is also talk of using the fans during the winter to keep frost off these greens.  Our super feels the fans made a huge difference this year.  For the record, SH has bent greens.

Im certainly not your Superintendent, nor to I want to grow bentgrass in Las Vegas, but the need for fans could be a couple things and these are just guesses after 13 years of turf growth.

Trees-13 years of growth. If they are pines, with they very well may be (they were a lot at Shadow Creek) they can be very aggressive. While juvenile, pine can grow several feet a year, depending on variety.
Thatch-After 13 years, you're greens have some form of thatch in them, meaning that they MAY hold a little more moisture than when they were brand new and thatch free.
Climate Change-Just like you mentioned, the last few summers have been different, as they have been in the northeast and southeast. You're Superintendent is adapting to the climate.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I think Anthony says it best when he mentions the height of cut issue.  Growing up in Ga we had not many problems with bentgrass greens mowed at 1/4 inch.  So much of what has transpired with fans, greens construction, irrigation, mowers, rollers has all been brought about by a continual seeking of faster, lower HOC greens.  I hate the look and sound of fans but the fans aren't to blame.  

More turf/higher heights=less stress. Think about Tiger's comments before this years PGA and how the greens were running very slow at Oak Hill? They were having a difficult summer with overly wet conditions, humid and didnt want to stress the plant before the event. I don't think that they were any issues with speed for the event. I think that's where Jeff commented along the lines of "that he doesn't remember Stanford giving out a turf degree."

[Jim Nelson]

My home club in Vegas (Southern Highlands) added 4 fans this summer on greens that struggled nightly over the past few summers.  Two of the greens had nearly half their surfaces re-turfed.  Having been open for 13 years, what suddenly happened?  A couple of years in a row, we had very humid and hot periods towards the end of August and beginning of September.  This also marks the beginning of overseed, perhaps a bit early, but it is an attempt to satisfy the need for golf in October which is the best month for golf in Vegas.  We also have an abundance of trees which have grown up and have begun to block air moving across the green surfaces.  The superintendent has started aggressively begun to thin and remove certain trees around stressed greens for air flow and to get sun in during the winter months.  There is also talk of using the fans during the winter to keep frost off these greens.  Our super feels the fans made a huge difference this year.  For the record, SH has bent greens.

Im certainly not your Superintendent, nor to I want to grow bentgrass in Las Vegas, but the need for fans could be a couple things and these are just guesses after 13 years of turf growth.

Trees-13 years of growth. If they are pines, with they very well may be (they were a lot at Shadow Creek) they can be very aggressive. While juvenile, pine can grow several feet a year, depending on variety.
Thatch-After 13 years, you're greens have some form of thatch in them, meaning that they MAY hold a little more moisture than when they were brand new and thatch free.
Climate Change-Just like you mentioned, the last few summers have been different, as they have been in the northeast and southeast. You're Superintendent is adapting to the climate.

In response to your comment about trees, I would add "and then some...."  Southern Highlands is certainly the last course in Vegas to be able to design and maintain a parkland course with a large number of trees and lots of turf.  Much better looking than most desert courses, but it is a challenge to maintain with a million dollar plus water bill.  And yes, most of the trees are pines which have taken to the environment created for them.  The Superintendent is actively looking at and removing trees now that they have become mature and in some cases, huge.  They also are trying to trim the undergrowth back.

On thatch, the greens are aggressively punched twice a year, so that has to help I'm guessing.  

I do think that at some point in the future, courses in the area will have to look at converting to year around bermuda.  Perhaps some variant will be (or has been) produced that will not go dormant quite so early.  I believe that Vegas as one of the tougher places to figure out the turf.  If you go bermuda, your course is brown for much of the winter.  Overseed, besides the cost, requires the suppression of the bermuda with smaller percentages of coverage every summer.  There is no perfect solution, but green still sells.  And so we come back to fans.  

[John Kavanaugh]

This is a topic best not visited simply because we agree to disagree.  The superintendents on here know just how truly valuable turf fans are in enabling them to not only keep bentgrass greens alive, but provide the quality conditions golfers want (or in some cases demand) during the most trying of climatic conditions (heat PLUS humidity).  Certain golfers on here do not know jack squat about growing grass and wish the game was still played with hickory shafts and fairways were mowed with sheep.  

Golf is a global game played on a myriad of grasses, in a myriad of climates.  The Transition Zone of the U.S. is known as one of the most difficult and challenging environments for golf course superintendents because there is not a single grass best suited for that environment.  The newer ultra-dwarf bermudagrasses are certainly making headway as many courses convert their bentgrass greens to the newer bermudagrasses.  In this instance fans are no longer needed because bermudagrass is a C4 plant and C4 plants are better adapted to survive in hot, humid environments than C3 plants (bentgrass).    

I have 8 fans at Carolina Golf Club.  When we renovated the golf course in 2008 we attempted to manage with only 2 fans at first (against my better judgment) and others were quickly added over the next two years.  All 8 greens with fans are located on the perimeter of the property, and it's the tree buffer along this perimeter which contributes to the poor air circulation associated with these putting green sites.  Several other courses in Charlotte have fans on each green (Charlotte CC, Myers Park CC, and Carmel CC South Course).  In the worst of summers (namely 2010 and 2011) my greens with fans were noticeably better than ones without despite the lack of trees, etc. associated with the other putting green sites.  When it is hot and humid, with little to no breeze, even the most open of putting green sites suffers from lack of air circulation.  Those of you who wish to think me and my peers are lazy, I invite you to come and work with me and my staff for a day during July or August, and you can witness first hand just how lazy we are.

I hate for an excellent post like the above to get lost on page 1 as the 24th post.  Being in the asphalt business I feel for your people in July and August.  We all work hard.  I'm just glad I don't witness a bunch of golfers skipping out on work while doing so.  It makes a guy bitter I suppose.

I do have one question.  Are the courses you mention all high profile clubs?  A common truth that I stand 100% behind is that in any city where the high profile club has installed fans you can go to a "poor" club that operates on a shoe string that doesn't have fans but the greens are just as good.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think Anthony says it best when he mentions the height of cut issue.  Growing up in Ga we had not many problems with bentgrass greens mowed at 1/4 inch.  So much of what has transpired with fans, greens construction, irrigation, mowers, rollers has all been brought about by a continual seeking of faster, lower HOC greens.  I hate the look and sound of fans but the fans aren't to blame.  

What input has the golfer who pays dues had in the development of modern green construction, irrigation, mowers and rollers?  Do you believe that in today's economy a golfer will quit his home club and move because of a promise of green speed that in reality only shows up a few times per year?  Have you actually ever met a golfer that enjoys his ball plugging in the fairway?  As one of the leading architects of our day wouldn't you contend that you can design a green in any climate that can survive without fans?  When did you start taking USGA studies as gospel especially when the conclusions benefit the equipment manufacturers?  

[Mike_Young]

I think Anthony says it best when he mentions the height of cut issue.  Growing up in Ga we had not many problems with bentgrass greens mowed at 1/4 inch.  So much of what has transpired with fans, greens construction, irrigation, mowers, rollers has all been brought about by a continual seeking of faster, lower HOC greens.  I hate the look and sound of fans but the fans aren't to blame.  

What input has the golfer who pays dues had in the development of modern green construction, irrigation, mowers and rollers?  Do you believe that in today's economy a golfer will quit his home club and move because of a promise of green speed that in reality only shows up a few times per year? No I don't think he would move.  And I agree 100% ith you that the good bent is only good a few weeks a year in many locations that have fans...
 Have you actually ever met a golfer that enjoys his ball plugging in the fairway?  No...
As one of the leading architects of our day wouldn't you contend that you can design a green in any climate that can survive without fans?  Yes...but I choose the grass...
When did you start taking USGA studies as gospel especially when the conclusions benefit the equipment manufacturers?  Never have..

John,
I know exactly where you are coming from and I despise fans.  My main club just did a 4 mill redo a few years ago and have fans on all greens at a tremendous cost...it will not change as long as frat boy boards can't argue with employees.  Raise the HOC and keep playing..

[Terry Lavin]

My home club in Vegas (Southern Highlands) added 4 fans this summer on greens that struggled nightly over the past few summers.  Two of the greens had nearly half their surfaces re-turfed.  Having been open for 13 years, what suddenly happened?  A couple of years in a row, we had very humid and hot periods towards the end of August and beginning of September.  This also marks the beginning of overseed, perhaps a bit early, but it is an attempt to satisfy the need for golf in October which is the best month for golf in Vegas.  We also have an abundance of trees which have grown up and have begun to block air moving across the green surfaces.  The superintendent has started aggressively begun to thin and remove certain trees around stressed greens for air flow and to get sun in during the winter months.  There is also talk of using the fans during the winter to keep frost off these greens.  Our super feels the fans made a huge difference this year.  For the record, SH has bent greens.

First off, I have to say that I really enjoyed everything about your club the one time I played there during a visit to Vegas.  Great course, great vistas, great vibe in the clubhouse.  Second, it's a pity your superintendent went to the fans.  The usual scenario is that there is agronomic improvement that is noticed or claimed, and the fans become permanent fixtures.  Worse yet, once you see some stress on a ventilation-free green, somebody on the board or in management is clamoring for another blower. 

[Matt Wharton]

I do have one question.  Are the courses you mention all high profile clubs?  A common truth that I stand 100% behind is that in any city where the high profile club has installed fans you can go to a "poor" club that operates on a shoe string that doesn't have fans but the greens are just as good.
[/quote]

All the clubs I referenced are in a group of the highest end clubs in Charlotte, NC.  As to your theory, I guess it depends on your definition of "just as good".  I have seen many supt's in our area with lower budgets produce putting greens in the summer with excellent turf density, but the putting quality harkens back to the days of Bobby Jones.  It is a fine line we tread trying to provide the best of both worlds in a climate ill suited for one.    

I believe the most frequent incorrect assumption most golfers make when discussing golf course maintenance or turf conditions, is that all things are created equal.  The truth is each golf course is a unique, living, breathing thing.  My course and my neighbor's may differ in age, soil composition, grass varieties, landscape, irrigation water source, etc.  All these differences, minor in some cases play a role in how the grass grows on one side of the fence.  The transition zone is full of good superintendents.  Some provide great conditions with unlimited resources and others provide truly great conditions with much less.  Most of us are simply trying everyday to provide the best possible conditions on that day for the enjoyment of our members and guests, or paying customers in the case of public courses.  We do it because we love golf and love nature!  We do it because we love seeing the sun rise over the course each morning and watching the sun set over the course each evening.  We are caretakers and stewards of a little slice of heaven, and that is not something you take for granted.

Back to your theory...it is an accurate statement with regards to bentgrass putting greens, but only during certain times of year (late fall and early spring).  During the worst of summer is when those with more resources at their disposal outperform and outshine those with less...at least that has been my experience in this business (25 years).

[Aaron McMaster]

John, unfortunately is a classic golfer/member.  I couldn't come up with the time to teach him nor would he retain enough of it to become informed about agronomy.

I'm compiling quotes from golfers and members to write a book about the most ridiculous things I hear in my job.  Johns quote about the fans destroying a converstaion on greens will make the list.

You want the fans removed, raise the cutting heights, slow the greens down.  You want firm fescue fairways, take away the carts or give me 40 rounds per day.  I get sick of listening to the dumb comments on here about supers and our agenda's to push green grass and high maintenance practices, like we don't understand the golf economy or environmental impact of golf and maintenance.  We respond to customers......My customers currently think greens rolling at 10.5 to 11.5 are slow!  This is why we regrassed to a new bent that can easily produce 11.5 to 12.5 daily with minimal inputs.

We don't have fans but if I did we would only use them during the peak stress periods which amounts to a few weeks per year.  This just can't be that big of a problem.

[Steven Blake]

Fans are almost a necessity for those clubs that wish to have bentgrass in the South. Turfgrass issues and failing putting surfaces are complex issues and every situation has its own set of circumstances.  To make blanket statements that fans are useless is wrong and uniformed. I would prefer not to have fans but they do have a place and are needed some circumstances.

Air movement is critical for successful bentgrass greens under hot humid conditions ... period.

[Matt Wharton]

This is the first season in which I removed all 8 fans from the course once the summer season was safely behind us.  Prior to this year I had always left them in place and covered them.  Last year my equipment manager brought our 2 oldest fans in for maintenance and painting, once I saw those two holes without the fans I knew we must bring them all in from now on.  The fact is we only run them on average between 12-16 weeks out of the year depending on conditions, thus I owe it to my members to provide them the opportunity to play and enjoy the course without those behemoths in place.

They are a valuable tool, but as a lover of the game and the architecture even I appreciate the beauty when they are not there!  

[Brent Hutto]

I always come back to the idea that everything serves a purpose or it wouldn't be there. In this case, it would appear that the members (or whoever is calling the shots) at a great many clubs would prefer those monstrous fans and bentgrass greens to the alternative, which is no fans and something other than bentgrass. So the fans are in service of that purpose, letting transition-zone golfer putt on cool climate grasses.

Which amazes me. I putt on Bermuda greens every day, happily. I can't remotely conceive of being willing to deal with fans in exchange for putting on grass that can't flourish without them. Not even a close call in my book...but then again I don't live in the same stratum with the type of clubs who can afford such extravagances.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, unfortunately is a classic golfer/member.  I couldn't come up with the time to teach him nor would he retain enough of it to become informed about agronomy.

I'm compiling quotes from golfers and members to write a book about the most ridiculous things I hear in my job.  Johns quote about the fans destroying a converstaion on greens will make the list.

You want the fans removed, raise the cutting heights, slow the greens down.  You want firm fescue fairways, take away the carts or give me 40 rounds per day.  I get sick of listening to the dumb comments on here about supers and our agenda's to push green grass and high maintenance practices, like we don't understand the golf economy or environmental impact of golf and maintenance.  We respond to customers......My customers currently think greens rolling at 10.5 to 11.5 are slow!  This is why we regrassed to a new bent that can easily produce 11.5 to 12.5 daily with minimal inputs.

We don't have fans but if I did we would only use them during the peak stress periods which amounts to a few weeks per year.  This just can't be that big of a problem.

I love this post, from being called a classic golfer/member too ignorant to understand agronomy, to calling your members customers.  I don't know why but something about being called a customer where I am a member at a private club is insulting.  The icing on the cake is your contention that you easily produce 11.5 to 12.5 daily with minimal inputs.  That type of propaganda is exactly what gets us in trouble and leads to costly extravagances like fans.  I love in your video when you choke on the number 12 and then feel the need to push it to 12.5 here.  I've owned a stimpmeter and have done a year of research into actual stimps as I was building an indoor putting green.  I promise you that no golfer would complain about a true 10.5. We need to stop the exaggerations.

That being said I am glad that after two architectural renovations you went with improved turf technology over artificial mechanical solutions.  I wish more clubs took your path.

http://www.gcsaa.tv/view.php?id=2295

[Steven Blake]

Of course we have to assume John actually knows how to use a stimpmeter.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Probably to the point of wasting your breath now, Steve and Aaron. John doesn't want to hear the reasons, nor will accept what they are. He knows about as much about turf as I do paving roads=Not enough be a credible source.

[Steven Blake]

Anthony,

So very true!

Steve Blake

[John Kavanaugh]

I am calling for slower greens in a natural environment. So much for speaking out.

[Aaron McMaster]

John, unfortunately is a classic golfer/member.  I couldn't come up with the time to teach him nor would he retain enough of it to become informed about agronomy.

I'm compiling quotes from golfers and members to write a book about the most ridiculous things I hear in my job.  Johns quote about the fans destroying a converstaion on greens will make the list.

You want the fans removed, raise the cutting heights, slow the greens down.  You want firm fescue fairways, take away the carts or give me 40 rounds per day.  I get sick of listening to the dumb comments on here about supers and our agenda's to push green grass and high maintenance practices, like we don't understand the golf economy or environmental impact of golf and maintenance.  We respond to customers......My customers currently think greens rolling at 10.5 to 11.5 are slow!  This is why we regrassed to a new bent that can easily produce 11.5 to 12.5 daily with minimal inputs.

We don't have fans but if I did we would only use them during the peak stress periods which amounts to a few weeks per year.  This just can't be that big of a problem.

I love this post, from being called a classic golfer/member too ignorant to understand agronomy, to calling your members customers.  I don't know why but something about being called a customer where I am a member at a private club is insulting.  The icing on the cake is your contention that you easily produce 11.5 to 12.5 daily with minimal inputs.  That type of propaganda is exactly what gets us in trouble and leads to costly extravagances like fans.  I love in your video when you choke on the number 12 and then feel the need to push it to 12.5 here.  I've owned a stimpmeter and have done a year of research into actual stimps as I was building an indoor putting green.  I promise you that no golfer would complain about a true 10.5. We need to stop the exaggerations.

That being said I am glad that after two architectural renovations you went with improved turf technology over artificial mechanical solutions.  I wish more clubs took your path.

http://www.gcsaa.tv/view.php?id=2295

John,

As you should know, since as a paver guy you have customers my members/customers are always right whether they are or not.  I don't know if you play private or public golf that's why I listed golfers/members/customers, I don't know you from adam but I've listen to your type for years, whether it be at my club or my peers it's like a broken record.......Would I rather produce 10.5 everyday and save time and money you betcha.  It would also put me out of a job.  I have no idea where you play but 10.5 here doesn't cut it day to day nor any of my peers in the Detroit area.  Since our turf was brand new this June we were very conservative and stayed around 9.5-10.5 for the first 6-8 weeks of opening but I can assure you until we hit 11 nobody was happy.  Even at 11 all they kept asking was when we were going faster, which we only did for tournaments but for next season we will easily keep 11.5-12.5 which is the high end for our green contours and not losing hole locations.  Everything we did (which was heavily researched) was done to improve conditions without adding costs.  An example for you.....I love to play the game and nothing is more annoying than hand watering during play in the afternoons, we did that exactly zero times this year on our new turf....is that not less inputs!

In my interview, we were compelled to help folks who can't do what we do for green speeds....i.e. afford to shutdown and put a better sward of turf down.....therefore to put on a public tv spot that everyone should strive for what our membership expects would be plain stupid.  I didn't want to infer that all clubs in all climates can do what we did, it's not that simple......Its a cut and edited video not all my comments are on it.......I also don't speak for my fellow supers in the transition zone where they must decide which part of bad do they wish to deal with, there is no panacea turf.  Bermuda has positives as does bent and they both have negatives.  When you find the perfect grass let them know!

Also, it was my only renovation here not my second and hopefully as more see what is possible it will help change ideas of what is possible.

[Sean McCue]

Probably to the point of wasting your breath now, Steve and Aaron. John doesn't want to hear the reasons, nor will accept what they are. He knows about as much about turf as I do paving roads=Not enough be a credible source.

Hit the nail on the head, you can't reason with people who are ignorant to the facts.

[John Kavanaugh]

If fans had never been allowed tree management would be a decade ahead of we are today. Mo fans, mo trees.

[Steven Blake]

John,

So trees are the problem and not fans??

Steve Blake

[John Kavanaugh]

Dead greens are the problem. Fans are not the solution.

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