[Terry Lavin]

It's a nice hole. It's a fun hole. It's a challenging hole, but it looks wholly alien compared to the rest of the course. The left falloff bunker is a wee bit extreme. And the green is way too big and just plain comical. I'd grade it a "C".  

[Sven Nilsen]

Terry:

Not looking to debate your opinion of the hole, but was hoping for a bit of clarification.

1.  In what ways does the hole look alien as compared to the rest of the course?

2.  What do you mean when you say the left bunker is a wee bit extreme?  [Note:  It is probably the biggest bunker on the course and the player can be left with a long bunker shot if their tee ball comes up way short and left.  But most shots from the back end of the bunker, which sits slightly below the surface of the green, are fairly mundane.]

3.  When you say the green is too big, do you mean in depth?  If so, would the hole really be better with a shallower target?

4.  In what ways is the green comical?

A "C" sounds like a tough grade for a hole that you describe as fun and challenging.

Sven

[Terry Lavin]

I give the hole an "A" in isolation. But a "C" because it just looks inconsistent in several ways. The left bunker is the biggest on the course. Maybe that jibes with my inconsistent remark!  Smyers had great bones to work with. He got self indulgent with #3 and with mounding on #s 1, 4 and 12. Otherwise the work was respectful, ambitious ( in length especially) and quite effective. It's a Top Ten Chicago which ain't bad especially bc I think OFCC North is #1. Nice bookends!

Addendum:  maybe I'm biased because the plan for this hole as espoused by the crew that I served with on the board was rejected. We had a very minimalist approach, with new bunkering, minimal lengthening, single row irrigation and a simpler new 3rd hole. Our architect, Mark Mungeam, put the tee box on a similar place and had the green to the right of the hill where the green is now. He had the green across the creek, which further utilized this natural feature. At the end of the day Smyers work was more ambitious (and 3x more expensive) and it has been very well received. End of bias alert.

[Paul OConnor]

#3. I don’t really like this hole that much, and here’s why. From the tee, the hole looks pretty cool, maybe a little mini uphill redan-ish.  There is a bit of a false front that repels shots hit onto the front 2 or 3 yards of the green, and it’s got a neat three tier green that runs away from the tee, and a big bunker short and left.  The problem is the hole just doesn’t work right.  The fairway in front of this green is one of the wettest parts of the course.  I don’t know why that is, because the fairway has a reasonable slope to it up to the green, but the entire closely mown area up to the green just retains way too much water, it never drains properly and is just always mushy.  So if the hole was intended to allow one to hit a low shot and run it onto the green, most of the time it won’t work because it’s too soft.  Also, when the pin is in front, that false front just stops everything dead, leaving a terrible awkward chip from the front edge of the green over a very short and steep false front.  

Because it is new, the 3rd green is considerably different than all the other greens on the course.  It doesn’t have the same great texture and color, and never rolls as true as the original greens.  For me it’s always a bit of a guess as to how fast or slow this green will roll.  During the winter months, this green is one of only two on the course that gets the special covering applied, and the grounds crew usually gets it on pretty early.  Not sure what the effect of this is, but the older greens all seen to weather the winter just fine without the white tarp treatment.

There are some neat chips and pitches from the sides of the green, if you miss right you go way, way down, maybe 20 feet below the green for a blind flop shot to a green that runs away.   Misses pin high left find a collection of usually heavily roughed moguls where you can find some awkward stances.   Misses long are not that bad as the pitches are straight back up the hill and reasonably simple.  

I think Terry is a little too harsh with the C, but just barely, I’ll give it a B-.

There is a longish walk to the fourth tee, where, because it is shielded from the wind by the railroad track embankment, I usually light up a cigar.  

[Scott Wintersteen]

#3 - One of the things that I think make this hole different than the other par 3's on OFCC South is depending on where the pin is located it can be a 2-3 club difference on the hole.  I don't think any of the other par 3's have this big of a yardage difference.  As Sven already alluded to the green is elevated, very big and deep.  The bunker on the left side of the green is very large but not too difficult up and down.  If you miss right of the green on this hole you are in big trouble.  There is a large elevation change and a huge drop off from the green and there are small trees that also need to be dealt with on the bottom right side of the green. 

As far as the green itself I think it’s an easy green to 3 put and have struggled with the speed.  I equated it to the green being redone but was not aware of the special covering applied to the green that Paul mentioned (I am learning new things every day).  This might be a factor too.

I like both of the par 3’s on the back 9 better than this hole, but think with the land and area they had to work with here I would be hard pressed to give this hole less than a B, especially after seeing pictures of the old hole.       

[Terry Lavin]

Not that I would sully this thread with a photograph, but would some among the cognoscenti consider this a modern iteration of a Spion Kop hole?

[Sven Nilsen]

Terry:

A descriptive, if not entirely precise, comparison could be made to a Spion Kop.

For anyone interested in seeing how the hole looks from the tee, there's a photo of the new 3rd in Jeff Goldman's IMO piece.

Sven

Edit:  Perhaps an apt comparison would be to the 11th hole at neighboring Flossmoor, another uphill midrange par 3.

[Sven Nilsen]

Hole 4 (Par 5) - 543/524/517

The Drive - With the course boundary running up the entire right side of the hole, the 4th is one of only a few holes that bring OB into play.  Playing into the prevailing wind, the golfer is asked to negotiate a set of trees that abut the front left corner of the fairway, as well as a set of fairway bunkers that pinch into the fairway on the right side in the landing zone.  The optimal play is a draw off the bunkers that may catch a favorable bounce and roll out on the gentle upslope found in this portion of the fairway.  Some small sets off mounding along the left edge of the fairway and on the right alongside the bunkers can help to curl a ball back towards the middle.  Although the tree line and the presence of the bunkers can make the drive look narrow, there's actually a decent amount of room on the short grass.  Way right is dead, and way left will most likely result in having to punch back out to the fairway, but there's plenty of room just off the fairway to get your ball back into play with a shot to get on in three.  Many drives end up alongside the first of the fairway bunkers, leaving between 250 and 280 in.

The Approach/Layup - The fairway curls to the right around 200 yards short of the green, taking over the space beyond the last of the three bunkers on the right.  Depending on the days pin, the player will have a choice as to which side of this very broad portion of the fairway they want to position their approach.  The general right to left slope of the green suggests playing from the left is the easier line, but a well placed bunker and the mounding on its back edge laying 30 or so yards short of the front of the green can turn this into a blind approach.  The player will also have to decide if they'd rather play a half wedge or a full shot in, requiring at least some thought be given to club selection (i.e. sometimes a long iron or hybrid is a better play than automatically pulling out the 3-wood).  If your drive has gotten to the go zone, the play will be a shot aimed at the front right of the green, as the general slope of the fairway and the mounding along the right greenside bunkers will guide a ball onto the putting surface.  This also takes the previously mentioned short left side bunker out of play.  Even for shorter approaches, the play may be to favor the middle of the green, as the lower area greenside left and the bunkers on the right offer their fair share of challenges for an up and down.

The Green - The 4th green offers a fairly subtle putting surface, without any of the larger contours found on the three previous holes.  The further onto the green you get, the more benign the breaks are.  At the front, putts are faster than they appear and will have more break than it looks.  At 33 yards in length, its important to have found the proper quadrant of the green, as putts along its axis are generally much harder than those played on the cross.  The slopes emanating from the right bunkers come into play for any pin on that side.  

Notes - As the hole generally plays uphill and into the wind, its more often than not a three-shotter for the longer hitter.  Those that get greedy on their second can find more trouble than is worthwhile.  The rear of the green lies ten yards shy of the course boundary (the land beyond the fence once held the two holes lost from the original routing).  Smyers used a series of small mounds around the back of the green to help hold shots heading in that direction.  The height of the mounds is such that they offer a bit of perspective on the depth of the green from the fairway, yet seem to blend with the mounding of the bunkers on the fronting left side bunker and the traps on the right of the green.  The result is a bit of an optical illusion when viewed from the fairway, creating uncertainty as to where the target truly lies.

Summary - A solid par 5 that is not going to bowl anyone over (the 7th will take car of that).  A 5 on the scorecard will feel like a missed opportunity, but escaping at par is no given.

[Paul OConnor]

#4 Sometimes I light my cigar on this tee before I tee off, but usually after I have hit my drive.  

One of the things that I always consider here is, why not build another tee 50 yards back in the woods and make this hole 590 yards long.  At 545, for the pros and the college kids, it is pretty short.  For me, from the blue tees it’s a simple 525 yard par 5, usually three shots unless the ground is really hard and the wind is out of the north.  

If the wind is from the south, this is the fourth hole in a row into the wind, so it’s not that hard to already be a few, or more, over par at this early point in a round.  So this first “easy” hole is a place to make birdie, or at worst a par before you turn downwind for the next three holes.  All but one of the South Course holes run north and south, so you don’t get the constantly changing hole directions that occur on the North.  I don’t mind playing South with strong winds from the north or south, but I try to avoid this side and play North when the winds are very strong straight from the West.  It is just not so much fun playing crosswinds on every hole, except the 16th.  

So the drive is pretty straightforward, aim as close as you like left of the fairway bunker, if the ground is hard the ball will run a long way here as it gets pretty compacted from traffic right at this spot.  The left half of the fairway has a nice banking to it that helps push drives to the center, and a couple lovely ripples right on the left rough line that can give you a odd stance if the ball hangs there.  If the wind is strong from the south, I just aim right at the fairway bunker, which cuts down the length of the hole a little.  There is OB right the entire length of the hole, so if you get a little rambunctious and lose the drive right, this easy hole just got a lot harder.  

The approach into the 4th green is dominated on the left by a big bunker with a very high face about 30 yards from the green, on the far right by trees and OB, and just to the right of the green by some fabulous banking that, unlike the banking on #3, actually works.  If I’m somewhere near the fairway with my drive I’m usually grabbing 3 wood and trying to hit a hard running hook up the right side of the fairway, which opens up the pitch to the green.  One of three things generally happens:  I hit a hard running hook to the right side of the fairway, opening up an easy pitch to the green, or, I pull hook the shit out of it way left, leaving a shot blinded by the aforementioned bunker, or I block/push the ball right into a bunch of trees, and now have to hit a low running punch shot under these trees, and utilize the fabulous contouring short and right of the green to hopefully be putting.  

This green is pretty big, so getting the yardage exactly right on the approach makes things a little easier.  I nearly always aim for the right half of the green, regardless of pin location, as everything moves left, and there are some nice sideboards between the green and the two right greenside bunkers.  I am rarely in either of those bunkers.  When the pin is in the very back, it pays to be a little cautious as being two or three yards long of the green makes for a tricky little recovery pitch.  There is also OB long over the green; the only time I ever saw anyone over that fence was from a badly bladed wedge from just short of the big fairway bunker, by a nameless local pro who later that day handed me $40.  

The fourth green is entirely clear of any nearby trees, and as such is one of the best putting surfaces on the entire property.  There is a very neat little horseshoe ridge about a third of the way on to the green that with the right pin makes for some exciting front pin locations.  The rest of the green basically goes from right to left, and there is a fairly short fringe area on the left side which quickly drops a couple feet to another usually heavily roughed area with a bunch of moguls.  Approaches pulled ever so slightly into a left pin invariably find their way off the green into this area, requiring a delicate pitch back uphill to the flag.  I probably birdie this hole more than any other on the course, and have a couple eagles as well, both made with wedges from 70 yards in front of the green.  So I like this hole, and at this point, my cigar is usually puffing quite nicely.

[Paul OConnor]

Since Sven fell asleep, I'll keep this train rolling...

#5 Par 3 - 243/210/190

#5  A par three that long ago used to be a par four makes for an odd, difficult, but ultimately satisfying hole.  The hole is about 210 yards from the blue tee, so downwind might be a four or five iron, and into the north wind a three wood.  The black tee is 245, and, like Clint, I try to stay away from those tees, and this hole is a good reason.  There is a big forested area behind the green, and a fair number of big oak trees left, so the winds can swirl around here a fair bit, making pulling the right club a little more difficult.  Depending on the firmness of the ground, and the exact spot the ball lands in front of this green, the ball may or may not run up onto the green.

I usually aim at the right front quarter of the green, where some well placed mounds will generally carry the ball left and back onto the green.  When the course really gets firm, a tee shot landed well short of the green surface on the right side will kick left and run all the way to the back left corner of the green, which is a good shot if they put the pin there that day.  Or you could be 90 feet away from the cup with a near certain three putt ahead of you. 

This is one of the best greens on the property, in my opinion.  It’s huge, has a heavy right to left slope, and has a diabolical front left quarter that generally rejects incoming shots hit either slightly left of center, or that are just a bit light on pace coming up to the front edge of the green.  There is a culvert like shaping on this front left corner that helps the ball run 15-20 yards back down the fairway.  This same fate awaits a putt hit slightly firm from the right side to any front pin.  In fact, this same fate awaits any flop or chip or putt from the right side to a front half pin, making these shots as nerve rattling as any on the green.  I prefer to putt these as much as possible as even well nipped wedges just don’t seem to want to hold on this green. 

If you pull the tee shot here, bad things can happen, and most of them involve oak trees. A ball headed a little left generally ends up way left due to the slope of the terrain, and there are about twenty oaks here that make finding a clear path to the right line troublesome.  As usual under a bunch of oaks, the lies tend to be scruffy, there are plenty of acorns to interfere with stances and swings, and the green is above eye level which usually makes things a bit more challenging.  When I get over this way, the game quickly becomes how to make a bogey and get out. 

[Terry Lavin]

This hole was converted from a short par 4 to a medium length par 3 when the South course was put together more than 60 years ago. The green is awesome, as Paul describes, but it was designed for a wedge, not a six-iron. Smyers renovation added more length to the regular tee and as was noted above it can now stretch over 240 yards. At that length, the hole is plain silly because luck is more likely the causative factor than skill in keeping a shot on the green. I still love the hole because of the terrific green, but it gets punitive if played longer than 175 IMHO. Most days this is a hard-par-easy-bogey hole.

I'll anxiously await the next 4 holes three of which are pretty flawless.

[Sven Nilsen]

Early risers you two are.

Hole 5 (Par 3) - 243/210/183

The Tee Shot - There are two ways to try to play the hole.  One can try to run a shot onto the green and hope they've judged their distance so that it doesn't roll too far through.  The large swale falling off of the front left of the green requires any such shot to be on line with the right third of the green, and there's a well placed aiming tree on the back of the green for those so inclined.  The contours in front of the green are blind from the tee, so it is hard to make out the small bump short of the middle of the green that divides the mostly level right side from the lower left.  As Paul noted, there are several small mounds on the right side that will deflect a ball back to the putting surface, although I think the line is just inside of those mounds as a ball that ends up long or right on that side is not going to be an easy up and down to any pin.  For front right pins, being a bit short is not a problem, as is being a bit long for any pin close to the back edge or the back left corner.  The second method of play is to try to fly the ball all the way to the surface, an easier shot when played into the wind.  On the left side, there's a fine line between not clearing the fall off (which extends several yards on to the green) and bouncing through the green.  It is easier to hit and hold the middle third of the green, which is it at its deepest at this point.  It seems that the most common miss is short, as the fear of going through the green causes players to underclub (or they simply don't catch it pure).

The Green - From a small flattish area at the front right, the green sweeps downwards towards the back left corner, with the front edge falling away towards the left swale.  The green is angled on this line, meaning the carry to the green is shorter on the right side.  It is generally desirable to leave yourself with an uphill putt, but just about every stroke on the green seems to result in the ball snapping off in the last foot or two as the putt loses speed.  There are no gimme's here,

Notes - The 5th, the 16th and the 17th are the three holes on the course about which I have heard the most concerns regarding fairness.  I've always been a proponent of the thought that hard doesn't necessarily mean unfair, and think that holds true in all three cases.  Here, the 5th has a green that is hard to hit and hold, but if you favor a miss to the right location, par is not out of reach.

Summary - I'd describe the 5th as an "accidental Redan," as the adaptation of the short par 4 into a long par 3 means that this green was not designed to be attacked with a long tee shot.  As with a few other holes on the course, the 5th does offer a look back at how golf used to be played, as the approach for the old hole would have been a fun shot to play before the advent of high lofted wedges and grooves that produced a lot of spin.  I'd imagine that a well judged punch shot was still the preferred approach, just as it is today albeit it with a longer club in hand.  Take a moment to think about how you would have positioned a tee shot for a 100 yard approach to the day's pin, a bit of strategy that was lost when the course gave up the land to the south.

[Sven Nilsen]

Terry:

I'd extend your anticipation to the next 7 holes, as good a stretch of golf as you'll find in Chicago.

In fact, I can't think of a 7 hole stretch on the North Course that comes close to 6 - 12 on the South (especially if 10 is played as a par 4).  Take that as the bait its intended to be to start the comparison between the two.

Sven

[Paul OConnor]

"In fact, I can't think of a 7 hole stretch on the North Course that comes close to 6 - 12 on the South (especially if 10 is played as a par 4).  Take that as the bait its intended to be to start the comparison between the two."

Sven,

I'll stack 12-18 North against 6-12 South all day.  5-2 North.

[Terry Lavin]

We can do a match play of North v. South (an Olympia Civil war) another day, but there's no doubt that the best nine-hole connecting course would be the front nine of the South and the back nine of the North.  I've played that combo platter dozens of times and it is an amazing 18-hole experience, with only one so-so hole (#8 South) in my estimation.

Let's get back to the task at hand.  Who's going to start the chatter on one of the nation's best natural Knoll holes in America, the short, tempting and treacherous sixth hole on the South?

[Sven Nilsen]

Paul:

Does this like-hole match-up seem about right:

6S v. 12N - Suppose we could switch 12N and 17N, in either case 6S wins
7S v. 15N - I'll take 7S just for the green alone
8S v. 17N - 8S loses to any of the par 4's in this stretch on the North
9S v. 14N - Closer than you'd think, but would be hard to argue against 14N
10S v. 18N - Two par 4/5's, I'll take the one on South
11S v. 16N - Tough to find matchups for these two, but I could play 11S all day long
12S v. 13N - The tee shot is better on 12S, but the green at 13N is a beaut

6th Hole South summary coming up shortly.

[Paul OConnor]

Here is 6.

#6  375 yards from both the Black and Blue tees.  A great hole.  World class.

It’s about 275 yards from the Black/Blue tee into the creek, so, as usual, the wind and firmness of the course that day will dictate club selection off this tee.  If the wind is from the north, I’ll hit driver, and even with a south wind and a soft course I’ll hit the driver, but if the ground is in the least bit firm, 3 wood or hybrid is the shot. 

This hole is all about the approach, but the approach is all about the drive.  Getting the best angle from the right side of the fairway makes the approach just a little easier.   Well, there are a bunch of bunkers right where the best angle into the green is, so keeping the ball just left of them is the spot.  Although, surprisingly, if you hit it really bad, right of the bunkers, over by the creek, and you really have to hit it crappy to get that far right, this might be the best angle of all to get at the green.   The rough can be bit heavy in the summer, but in the fall the grass eases off a little, and getting out from this spot is pretty straightforward.  Even the bunkers are not that bad a spot, although the ball does like to roll right up to the front of them making things a bit more difficult.

I like to pull hook the shit out of my three wood from time to time, see hole #4, and this is as good a place as any for that bad shot.  Left is not that great here.  There are some big trees short of the creek that are really right in the way, and now from this poor angle you’re shooting at the right side of the green.  Unless I’ve got a really good lie, I’ll just try to play this shot out in front of the green and try my luck getting up and down.  A decent lie and I’ll try hoisting it over the trees, hopefully on the right line, with the right pace, and I’ll be putting.   

So the green, one of the great green locations ever, sits atop a knoll, bunkers short left, sharp drop on the left, and an enormous huge drop on the right, into Hell’s Kitchen.  If I don’t hit this green I usually miss left, just because missing right is so bad.  The slope down to the bottom of the Kitchen has stairs because it’s so steep.  Usually you can’t see the flag at all, it is just a terrible bad place to go.  Missing the green left still sucks, but you can see the pin and have some hope of getting it close.  Within the last year a tree just left of the green was removed, thankfully, as its presence made recovery from left of the green even more challenging.
 
When you are down in that Kitchen, it is very quiet, no one can see you, except maybe the group over on 11, but they try not to look because they know what’s coming.  So you just grab that lob wedge, walk down those stairs, deal with the buried lie in that heavy rough, look at that wall of grass in front of you, hit it hard enough to carry the wall, and then hope like hell it stays on the green.  Or you can hit it fat, and if you’re lucky the ball will roll all the way back to the bottom where you can try your luck again, or it might just catch up half way down the slope in some really long grass that I have no idea how the grounds crew ever cuts.   Well they don’t cut it that often because it’s usually really long, and now you are halfway down a near vertical wall of grass, and thinking, boy I wish I still had metal spikes in these shoes, because I might break my collarbone if I take a 20 foot tumble after trying to hit my fourth shot on a simple 375 yard hole.  Ah, the lovely sixth, such a little bitch she is.   
 

[Andrew Buck]

Terry:

I'd extend your anticipation to the next 7 holes, as good a stretch of golf as you'll find in Chicago.

In fact, I can't think of a 7 hole stretch on the North Course that comes close to 6 - 12 on the South (especially if 10 is played as a par 4).  Take that as the bait its intended to be to start the comparison between the two.

Sven

Has there ever been consideration of creating a composite course for championships?  The main problem I see with this direction is it's tough to do without losing a marquee hole on the North.  In addition, the one hole on North that I'm not fond of, 15, is really needed to connect 14 - 16 and is a very good test for championship golf.

About the only routing I can think of would need to eliminate 4 - 5 - 6 - 9 - 10 on North and replacing with 1 - 2 - 3 - 6 -7 on South.  I think a better 5 hole addition would be 10 - 11 - 12 - 6 - 7, but from a championship perspective you don't really want to pull in two short par 4's.

As for the "middle" stretch of South, I haven't played it since the redesign, but I love all the holes, but 8 and 9 do feel out of place to me, which is probably a result of how well the rest of the course flows.

[Sven Nilsen]

6th Hole (Par 4) - 375/361/337

Drive - The walk off the back right corner of the 5th leads to an opening in the tree line, which once again reveals the course's central valley.  Look to your right and you can make out the tees on the 12th and 16th, the green and fairway of the 11th and the green and surrounds on the 15th.  Over to the left you'll take in the reverse view of the 2nd hole played just a while back.  Straight ahead lies a puzzle to be deciphered.  A stretch of fairway lies below the tee, gently curving around a series of traps on the right side, before dead-ending into Butterfield Creek.  On the far side of the Creek, another stretch of short grass angles from right to left up a short hill before leading to a green site that appears perched above the surrounding ground.  Although it is possible to drive it (see below for a bit more information on how this hole conceivably could be played), almost everyone will layup short of, but as close as possible to, the creek.  As the desired angle of approach is down the midline of the green, the closer to the bunkers you can get, the better, the ideal shot being a gentle fade that curves into the corner of the fairway leading to the crossing bridge on the right.  Missing left can cause some tree problems (part of the same group of trees lying off of the left side of the 2nd hole), a result that happens with a great deal of frequency as players seek to avoid a shot from the fairway bunkers.

Approach - Flipping over a soup bowl doesn't even do justice to just how severe the falloffs are around the 6th.  What the player sees from the fairway is trouble on the left, including the creek which has turned back towards the green, a couple of devilish looking greenside bunkers lying short and below the surface of the green and a horizon line on the left side of the green reminiscent of the Cliffs of Dover.  But what the player doesn't see is a more severe falloff on the right, replete with a thick grass face that can make a ball disappear before leading to a hard-packed area lying 20 or so feet below the surface of the green known as "The Kitchen."  The unsuspecting often fall prey to avoiding the trouble that they can see, and ending up with a fate much worse.  Angles are everything here, as a any shot not up the axis of the green can result in a big score if you haven't pulled the right club or judged the wind correctly.  Even if you do hit the surface, the severe back to front slopes on the green place a demand on staying below the pin.  The sucker pin here is a back pin, as the green even falls off in this direction, leaving an even tougher chip than if you'd found either side.  There's a great feature on the front right of the green that can be used to deflect balls back to the middle, which comes into play if the approach has come up just short.

Green - Sloping back to front, the 35 yards of safe zone don't offer much in the way of respite.  As noted, any putt from above the hole is going to require a deft touch, with a great deal of attention given to break if the line crosses from one side to the other in any way.  The left side of the green rises to a small raised area about halfway up, which guards a small swale in the green which can send a ball off of the left side.  The raised area comes into play on any putt in the front left quadrant, especially for putts from the front right to the middle.

Notes - At first glance, one has to wonder how the Knoll was created.  But if you look at the landforms running along the left side of the 2nd fairway, how it extends to the back of the 6th green and then flows into the tree covered high area that runs off towards the 11th green and 12th tee, its easier to see the thought process that went into its construction.  After a recent amateur tournament held on the South Course, one of the competitors was asked what he thought of the course.  He responded by saying he really liked the par 4's, including the drivable one on the front.  When questioned if he really meant the 11th, which is on the back, he responded by saying the one with the "kitchen," which he thought was on the front.

Summary - One of the shorter holes on the course, the 6th may have the most divergent range of scores.  Recovery shots from the right or left sides are never easy, but players seem to find more trouble by not taking into account the slope of the green.  Often the better play is to aim well away from the hole, or towards a contour that might hold up a pitch struck a little too firm.

I could go on all day with this discussion of the 6th, but just thinking about it is exhausting.  Let me know if you think I've missed any key elements.

[J_ Crisham]

Terry:

I'd extend your anticipation to the next 7 holes, as good a stretch of golf as you'll find in Chicago.

In fact, I can't think of a 7 hole stretch on the North Course that comes close to 6 - 12 on the South (especially if 10 is played as a par 4).  Take that as the bait its intended to be to start the comparison between the two.

Sven

I'll take the bait and submit that the back nine at OFCC North is the best collective set of nine holes in Chicago. Not a weak hole among the nine. No two consecutive holes that run in the same direction. Great use of elevation and just nasty bunkering. 14 may be the best hole in the Midwest.

[Ryan Kelly]

Andy, the only real consideration of a composite course is amongst the members.  As you probably know, the problem is with the flow of the players and spectators, but it is a great idea.  Like you suggested using 1-7 on South would be fantastic and you could still use 8 and 9 for the driving range like in 2003.  Also, like Paul suggested you could stretch 4 back almost as far as you wanted.

[Paul OConnor]

No one is considering a composite course.  The North Course is THE Championship course, and arguably THE reason Olympia Fields Country Club exists.  The new South is icing on the cake, but let's not get confused as to which course is the cake.

[Sven Nilsen]

Jack:

Why?  Going to need some reasoning beyond your declarative statements.

For example, why is 14N a better hole than 9S, or 3N?  

How are you defining best?  And does it include any parameters regarding penal v. strategic golf holes, or ground game options v. aerial demands?

On which set of 7 holes in the golfer more likely to have to make more decisions, which set offers the better collective set of greens, which offers the most variety in types of shots required and which set is more fun?

I'm not necessarily saying your ultimate outcomes are wrong, just that there's a bit to be learned about both courses by digging beneath the surface.  In essence, we're figuring out exactly what type of cake Paul is referring to and just who likes it better.

Sven

[Paul OConnor]

Sven,
You shouldn't argue with Jack.  He is a golf couse rater and knows this kind of stuff.  I happen to agree with him too.

I'm sure he will provide details and clarity on his statements.  

14 North is in an altogether different league than 9 South.  Here are a couple reasons why that is so.

1. I have never had to tee off 14 North with a dog barking at me from 10 feet away, 9 South - barking dog.

2. I have never had to hit my second shot on 14 North from a flower garden in front of someone's cottage, 9 South - flower garden

3. On the green of 14 North I have never been disturbed by a UPS truck driving 20 feet away from the green to make a delivery, 9 South - UPS delivery truck

Sven, if Olympia Fields only had the South Course, it would have closed 30 years ago.  The North pays the bills at OFCC.  

[Sven Nilsen]

Not to get all Michael Vick, but someone should shoot that dog.  Its a menace.  But then again, some people appreciate noisy courses.

As for the flower beds, what happened to that pull hook you hit on 6?

Sven

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