Trolleys (Maint. savings) vs Buggies (revenue)

[Phil Lipper]

You might laugh at his response but he is right, no one is keeping a golf course in "impeccable" condition at $280k. The math doesnt work especially when one considers the salary for a good greens superintendent, and obviously this impeccable course has a superstar not a good one. He obviously doesnt have an assistant, a mechanic or a crew because if he does he has no money in the budget for some equiptment. you might want to consider that sometimes fact and logic help make a better argument.

[Mark Pritchett]

    The average maint. of a private club in the north is $700k and i have seen impeccable courses maint. at $280k.  

So Hemlock Golf Club may or may not be $280k per year, what are the others? 

[Phil Lipper]

According to an article on the USGA web site  by James Francis Moore, Director, Construction Education Program
 
The 1998, 18- hole average maintenance budget for private courses is $635,930, it is $576,423 for resort courses, and it is $383,819 for municipal course
Therefore I guess we are to assume that golf course maintenance has seen deflation of -2.08% p.a. since 1998? BTW thats off of the average for a municipal course, which based on my experience few of us would say are impeccable.

[BCowan]

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[Brent Hutto]

The amount that is required at minimum may well be less than the average that is spent.

[BHoover]

How is it fair to compare maintenance costs at places like Kingsley and Double Eagle?  Kingsley is built on sand.  Double Eagle is, I suspect, built on the heavy clay soils of central Ohio.  That fact alone should make any direct comparison of cost impossible, or at least very difficult.

[Phil Lipper]

Are all public tracks that are non muni's considered resort?

Ben I'm not sure that is the quote from the article, there was no category called daily fee mentioned

[BCowan]

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[SL_Solow]

Ben;  Many of the problems you identify are ones that most of us agree with and have done so for a long time.  But the root cause of the problem is not limitations on walking, the original premise of your thread.  Nor is it over spending on maintenance, to my way of thinking, that goes more toward creating conditions that we don't like as opposed to causing failures at clubs.  The real problem is oversupply.  We built too many courses and too many private clubs, buoyed by the real estate bubble and the NGF's statement that we could bulid a course a day for several years and not meet demand.  Couple that with the fact that most courses built were real estate related privates or high end CCFAD's and we are left with too many high end courses competing for too few players.  The "best" clubs and the best publics seem to survive although they may have additional pressure.  But those that are on the edge struggle and many close.  They might do better if they cut costs but most do before they close.  Adding walkers faces the revenue trade offs discussed previously.  The simple truth is that golf is not as popular a participation sport as it was supposed to be when the courses were built.  That really isn't much different from the past and historically, in down times, courses fail.  Eventually, the market will correct, we will come close to "right sizing" and if history is any indicator, we will experience another boom, golf lovers and entrepeneurs will give in to optimism, and the cycle will repeat.  Those of us who are interested will continue to try and guide our clubs along the"right" path and ignore the fads but it will be difficult.

[BCowan]

Mr Solow

     I totally agree with the overbuilt housing development courses.  I am speaking of the Golden Age Willie Park jr, Ross, and Allison exc. designs that have 150/325 member occupancy.  Numerous friends and people i know through golf want to join Golden Age courses, they don't want to be forced to ride and take a caddy.  Yes the market will sort this out and they will look at it from the status quo standpoint and go out of business.  I think the progressive member structure is totally outdated, and it offers a family membership only structure with memberships based on age.  So those clubs keep assessing their members to continue on the road praying the bubble is created again and we can go on with poor policy.  Great courses in high income areas can get away with this poor model due to deep pockets, but there are many in declining burbs that have great courses that aren't adjusting wisely.  If a baseball owner had 20,000 people per home game avg, with a 30,000 seat stadium, and made each ticket holder buy popcorn, a dog, and a drink he would have a hard time filling those other 10,000 seats.  So a cost/benefit analysis would be needed.  Would making nose bleed seats more affordable to the avg joe be wiser, there might be a good change they would buy concessions and creating a sold out park drives up demand for other tickets.  For a traditional club that is half full membership wise that makes you take a caddie or a cart, when there are people many that i talk to that would join but don't like coercion.  Those people may carry 70% and take a caddie with guests 30% of the time, so i would bet more caddy rounds would be the result.   Overspending on maint. is determined by whether you are trying to attract Dr's who play 4 times a year and want green grass or real golfers who want VALUE with great Arch and non coercion.  Limitations on walking at traditional clubs and dues that are way over the market income average are big factors.  So we will disagree very much so, if you are in the Chicago area or a big market area i can understand you not seeing how private courses in middle America are drying up (not housing development courses).  You want to get your club to 90%+ occupancy.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Ben,

In the Reading, PA area 2 formerly "golden age" private clubs closed within the last 10 years- Reading CC (Findlay) http://www.exetertownship.com/RCC/Pages/Golf.aspx and Berkleigh CC (White) http://www.berkleighgolfclub.com/coursetour.html. Both are now public- Reading because of condemnation by township for "open space" after the club was negotiating a sale to a developer and Berkleigh because of changing demographics . Both clubs were struggling with membership problems before. I don't think walking with a caddie or trolleys  or maintenance costs  were an issue in both cases. Same with Woodcrest CC(Flynn) http://woodcrestcountryclub.com/ in Cherry Hill, NJ. PA has many formerly private clubs in smaller cities that are now semi-private or public. Frankly, generally speaking, I don't think there is a great demand for walking instead of riding in the US in mid level or lower level private clubs or most public courses.

[SL_Solow]

Ben;  I suppose my problem is that you apparently believe that those who are members and managers of the types of courses you reference are obtuse and unable to make the economic calculations you seem to think are obvious fixes.  It just may be that your "solutions" won't solve the problems for many of the reasons discussed.  We all want the old courses to survive and thrive but wishing doesn't make it so.  Because people want to play on their terms doesn't mean that changing the rules to permit their use will pay the bills.  Indeed, if it drives away some of the higher ticket members, it may have the opposite effect.  Those who are invested in the clubs generally do their best to insure survival.  They make mistakes but sometimes economioc conditions just don't allow things to work out.  Moreover, even though we tend to prefer the classics, the newer development courses continue to drain play and those who have bought an adjoining house have additional incentives to use their course and make it work.

[BCowan]

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[JMEvensky]

BCowan,just a tip--so long as you keep referencing your parents' club,you reinforce what each of us who've served on clubs' Boards know--you have no clue about how member-owned clubs operate.

And another tip--Shel doesn't need me to help him win an argument,but you might want to find someone a little closer to your own intellectual level to argue with.He's a plus handicap--and you're a beginner.

[SL_Solow]

Ben;  Having never met, knowing nothing about my background, experience in golf and/or business, you obviously understand me.  You are back to where you were in the previous deleted thread; out of ideas you resort to ad hominem attacks.  The fact is, none of your "ideas " are new nor are they "yours".  They have been discussed here and elsewhere numerous times.  where practical they have been adopted.  But so far, beyond a certain enthusiasm, there has been nothing added to our knowledge base by your pronouncements.  Moreover, your factual assertions that those with greater experience than you have rejected, reflect your disassociation from reality.  We all would like golf to be cheaper.  We all would like to be able to play where we want, how we want and when we want.  There are a lot of things we all want but sometimes reality intrudes.  There are many threads that I read and don't respond to because I am learning and have little to add.  I find the site works better that way.  i won't bother to respond to you anymore on this thread and will be cautious on others.  So far there is little for me to learn and you don't appear to be interested in exchanging ideas, only in repeating yours.  Good luck

[BCowan]

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[BCowan]

you resort to ad hominem attacks

   Please give me an example?  I give solutions and am open to exchanges is ideas.  You are the one that is condescending and you haven't offered any ideas other than bad economy.  I am very much open to learning.  If you are rude to me, i will be rude back to you.  

[BCowan]

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[Jason Thurman]

I've met Ben Cowan. He's nowhere near as attractive as Sarah Palin, and she has nowhere near his conviction in his own beliefs.

[Jon Wiggett]

You can maintain a course in very good nick in the UK for under £100K but you can also spend a lot more. I would imagine climate has a lot to do with it.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone have any examples of what it costs annually to charge-up/refuel a fleet of buggies (and how many buggies are in the fleet).

Another interesting costing would be the cost of fuel used by ride-on greens mowers vrs the cost of fuel used by hand-mowers (and I realise there's time/labour 'costs' etc etc).

ATB

[BCowan]

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