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Niall C

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #100 on: November 23, 2013, 07:27:07 AM »
You Brits are a funny lot, I've really enjoyed the discussion so far. What amazes me is you're all hung up on jeans, collarless shirts and cell phones. What about my biggest pet pieve: not be able to change shoes in the car park!  

Pete

Like a lot of golf club rules, such as full length knee socks when wearing shorts, that one tends to get over-looked perhaps because there is no one around to enforce it. I'm not sure of the clubs that I was a member of whether that was a rule, I do know however that due to my habitual tardiness I often changed shoes in the car park before running on to the first tee. Hell, I can even remember changing out of a suit shirt and tie and into my golfing gear in the car park but that was obviously at the all male club. That would certainly have been against the rules and I would have rightly have been carpeted if I had been caught.

I think what it really comes down to is that that golf club rules are really just like etiquette out on the course. They are about good manners and ensuring that you don't offend or annoy your fellow golfers.

Niall

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #101 on: November 23, 2013, 09:57:28 AM »
One thing we have found at Deal is we are picking up new members who wish to upgrade to a better course/more traditional club. As membership has been a little easier to obtain at the best clubs there will be people who strive to join the best possible club. This causes a problem for the standard traditional member club who lose members at both ends; the strivers and those who cannot afford it or want pay and play.

Adrian if 97% of golfers prefer 4ball that is great for us, less than 3% of clubs are two ball clubs so the 3% of players are squeezed into maybe 1% of clubs, hence we are in a very healthy position.

That's a niche market and money can be made in niche markets, just like my pub the Just Reproach in Deal. They have banned mobile phones, needless to say it's packed and does very well. The micro pub model; no food, no music, no mobiles and no lager just real ale and conversation. In East Kent around a dozen micro pubs have opened in the last 3 years, in a trade where pubs are closing all over the UK. 98% of pub customers may want lager, music and mobiles but the 2% who don't provide a good living for the micro pubs.
Cave Nil Vino

Paul Gray

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #102 on: November 23, 2013, 10:33:18 AM »
So, if I can loosely suggest that there is some agreement here that Clubs A and Clubs C are doing OK, I'll equally suggest that these clubs are actually just following models which have been working very well for a long time now.

Club A is effectively the modern equivalent of municipal golf. These places have been getting by perfectly well for a long time now. I started out on these courses and they were busy long before the 80's golf boom kicked in. There may be more of them now but, overall, they are the conveyor belt courses of the day and are bringing in the revenue.

Club C is made up of the old school classics and, as a number of people have pointed out, things are ticking over nicely. Economic hardship to many of these members means buying a smaller yacht. Golf club membership is a given.

And so, Club B is really just an oversupplied middle group made up of average old clubs with average old courses and badly run new kids on the block with water fountains they are struggling to maintain. The older clubs now have a disjointed membership and a lack of clear direction as they try to keep all of the falling membership happy and the new boys are finding that it's increasingly difficult to pay the bills whilst trying to dress mutton as lamb and make their farm yard track look like the sudo-floridian postcard it was designed to be.

Only one of two things happens in oversupplied markets; either demand picks up in the nick of time and all looks hunky dory in the short term or the weakest fall by the wayside. I just hope for as many of the nicer, older courses as possible that the penny drops, that they define their own clear identity and are able to market it accordingly.    
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #103 on: November 23, 2013, 11:31:13 AM »
Paul - spot on.
Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #104 on: November 24, 2013, 02:11:11 PM »
Paul

Do you, by any chance, teach social science at a polytechnic ?

Mark

I disagree with you and Paul in so much as I think when the economy picks up I think you will find that a lot, maybe not all, of club A's will struggle. Whatever though, the real target is to make ends meet and as Jon and Brent said many pages ago, that means cutting your cloth to suit. I suspect that quite a few clubs are regretting the new enlarged clubhouse that they had done a few years back in the good times.

Niall

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #105 on: November 24, 2013, 03:51:32 PM »


I disagree with you and Paul in so much as I think when the economy picks up I think you will find that a lot, maybe not all, of club A's will struggle. Whatever though, the real target is to make ends meet and as Jon and Brent said many pages ago, that means cutting your cloth to suit. I suspect that quite a few clubs are regretting the new enlarged clubhouse that they had done a few years back in the good times.



I think it's less to do with the economy than with changing attitudes to club membership among the younger generation.

Guys in their 30's and 40's who have never been immersed in golf club culture really could not care less about the 'club'aspect of belonging to a golf club. They simply want to play golf and maybe get a beer afterwards. I can find no fault with this attitude and clubs need to get accustomed to it.

The days of clubs being able easily to attract successive generations of members happy to submit to archaic rules and rituals are over.


Paul Gray

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #106 on: November 24, 2013, 04:17:06 PM »
Niall,

Don't give up the day job. Hilarious.  ;D

So, to be clear on this, you think that when people have more disposable income to spend they will migrate away from the pay and play, open to all facilities and Johnny-£10-Green-Fee will suddenly feel an overwhelming urge to join a waterlogged farm track where many of the existing members look down their noses at him. Staggering.

I fear your ideals may have distorted your judgement.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 04:53:32 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Pearce

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #107 on: November 24, 2013, 05:16:23 PM »
Paul,

Been drinking, have we?  Not  only staggeringly rude but monumentally missing the point.  Your suggestion is that all B and C category courses are "waterlogged farm tracks" with old fashioned snobby memberships?  Do you actually play golf in the UK.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #108 on: November 24, 2013, 05:49:02 PM »
I think 90% of you would be astonished at the new wave of golfers that are coming along.

The odd bastille will stand but if we are counting Deal in that category, you will still see some changes there too.

The new breed like things very differently to most on you on here. Most of you are the minority opinion. If you think Redans, wide fairways, strategic options, highly contoured greens and firm greens are the saviours then take a ticket and go and sit in the blue corner.

If you believe statistics, patterns and cater for the majority then water fountains, cart girls with their tits out, shots over water, greens that hold a 3 wood and phone apps that read your putts for you are likely to be the new winners.

The under 40 UK golfer currently joins 'new wave' clubs, they actually think they love 7500 yards, they think 6200 yards is far too short, an away trip to a top course...lets go to The Belfry. The new breed dont want a locker, they change in the car, they cant see any point in attending the presentation night to pick up the three trophies they won this year, they dont want to play at Painswick when the team gets drawn to play there, because you cant see the greens on some holes and there are daises on the fairways. Stripes is what they want. Online tee times so they can get out in front of the societies is what they want.

Its been happening for some time and in 10 years almost everyone under 65 will have come fro the Anarchy in the UK era. Its going to be very hard to change the way everything is heading. There is just not enough of GCA like minded people to stop it and too many golf clubs gagging for business and making it cheaper to golf by not being a member.



« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 06:26:58 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #109 on: November 24, 2013, 06:28:44 PM »
I'm now really confused, Niall thinks the As will struggle, so that means the A & Bs struggle while the C's who Duncan thinks are the problem are doing well?? It goes to prove if the Captain resplendent in jacket, cravat, tailored shorts and long socks whilst toasting the Queen with Kümmel at least the club is making a few bob!
Cave Nil Vino

Mark_F

Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #110 on: November 24, 2013, 06:32:42 PM »
Probably the most depressing thread I've read since I joined GCA.

Indeed, Brian.  Perhaps it's time to think about immigrating?  The population of black chicks is increasing every day here, so you will have your hands full.

Sean_A

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club? New
« Reply #111 on: November 24, 2013, 06:48:29 PM »
Its been happening for some time and in 10 years almost everyone under 65 will have come fro the Anarchy in the UK era. Its going to be very hard to change the way everything is heading. There is just not enough of GCA like minded people to stop it and too many golf clubs gagging for business and making it cheaper to golf by not being a member.

The question really isn't about not enough golfers. The question is which clubs will close.  IMO, I still think the new breeders are at higher risk. 

1. Most golfers don't remain stupid forever. If they are going to become core golfers and actually open their eyes, many will see that better value is had from courses which remain fully open and in decent nick year round.  Many new breeders struggle to provide even a marginal product Nov thru March.  A significant percentage of new breeders never deliver a decent product, the design, maintenance and drainage is that bad.

2. As the social side of clubs continues to decline, quality design and maintenance will become more important. This is the car park shoe changer brigade.  They don't care about the club - they turn out for social golf.

3. New breeders often recruit new golfers who don't want to pay lots of money (or no money!); the retention rate is terrible - thus creating an overwhelming pressure to recruit new members every year and attract more visitors.   

Where new breeders will do well are in places where there isn't a clear cut superior old line club.  There are many pockets of this sort of thing in the country.   I don't think new breeders will do well recruiting head to head against the clear cut superior old line clubs. In effect what happens is the new breeders do the recruiting and the old liners nick some of the core members they need when those guys get tired of playing in the mud on temps. I see it at my club all the time.  The other local clubs serve very well as waiting rooms for our club.  Yet, if local golfers were asked which is the snootiest club around, my club would get first mention most of the time.  Higher green fees and quality reputation feed perceptions about snootiness. 

Ciao 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 06:20:10 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #112 on: November 24, 2013, 06:54:58 PM »
The under 40 UK golfer currently joins 'new wave' clubs, they actually think they love 7500 yards, they think 6200 yards is far too short, an away trip to a top course...lets go to The Belfry. The new breed dont want a locker, they change in the car, they cant see any point in attending the presentation night to pick up the three trophies they won this year...

As usual, Adrian, it's beyond ridiculous that you think all under-40 golfers fit in a neat little stereotypical box that a club can market itself to.

We are actually quite a diverse lot.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #113 on: November 25, 2013, 03:31:19 AM »
The Golf House Club at Elie has one of the strongest jumior memberships of any club I know.  I can't imagine any of those juniors even contemplating a Club A type of club.  Let's be honset.  Adrian knows his market and knows it well.  His mistake, which is the same mistake that many of the Club C type members make as well, is to assume that your market is reflective of the entire market.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

David_Elvins

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #114 on: November 25, 2013, 03:45:06 AM »
As usual, Adrian, it's beyond ridiculous that you think all under-40 golfers fit in a neat little stereotypical box that a club can market itself to.

We are actually quite a diverse lot.

 I think that is true and I also have no idea how a private club that panders to the clientelle that Adrian mentions can compete with daily fee courses.

Private courses survive on having members that don't play a lot and keep their memberships.  If you aim for a transient membership that doesn't invest in golf club culture, all you get is a membership dominated by members who see membership as a discount ticket for the volume of golf they play.   You get a crowded course and low revenue per round.  


Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #115 on: November 25, 2013, 03:54:34 AM »
Mark I think the C type clubs know their market better, 7% of children are educated in independent schools, a reasonable percentage of them will play golf at some stage during their lives.  Public school types tend to like to mix with other public school types, so provide a familiar setting with like minded people and your market is fairly stable. The reason the Ryes, Prestwicks, RAFs, etc, etc of this world have not changed is because they broadly have the correct set up for their core market.

As I said earlier niche markets can be very profitable, maybe if Adrian doesn't have an upmarket club in his area he is missing a trick!!
Cave Nil Vino

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #116 on: November 25, 2013, 03:58:08 AM »
Adrian,

as a golf course owner and operator I really do not recognise the picture you paint. Most younger players have the same diversity in what they are looking for that older generations had. Are you sure you have not mistaken a nightclub for a golf course? ;)

Jon

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #117 on: November 25, 2013, 04:43:30 AM »
As usual, Adrian, it's beyond ridiculous that you think all under-40 golfers fit in a neat little stereotypical box that a club can market itself to.

We are actually quite a diverse lot.

Private courses survive on having members that don't play a lot and keep their memberships.  If you aim for a transient membership that doesn't invest in golf club culture, all you get is a membership dominated by members who see membership as a discount ticket for the volume of golf they play.   You get a crowded course and low revenue per round.  



This quote is the biggest indicator of the problem. There are not enough of this type of member to keep UK golf courses afloat. Too many people do the sums and in the UK you have to operate under a mode of the cheapest way to play to golf is by being a member. You have to operate with your golf course somewhere in the line that the membership is 20 or 30 (absolutely no more) the standard weekend green fee. Ie if your club charges £40 to play the membership should be £800 to £1200. If you allow third party operators or schemes to play for £20 then you will lose members. You will have some members that play 6 or 7 times a year but not enough. Successful golf courses are crowded golf courses. They might not be what GCA people want.

Mark- We do have one up market club in the area and it struggles, sometimes they do 2-4-1s or deals and then they piss the members they have off. I know members there but they still have the 'must be value' mode in their heads.

Traditions are killing the traditional UK golf club, but I do think that the vast majority of clubs have realised they need to re set their stall and have altered things. The new breed do want different things and many cant be more than 18 inches from their phone at any time,  I think dress rules have been altered at many clubs already, I dont advocate jeans, butI  think long socks up to the knee is too strict and if clubs are still in that mode then maybe the writing is on the wall for them. There is a balance in their somewhere and people wear uniforms when they play most sports, golf should be the same I think people will accept a reasonable level of dress.

The reason clubs will fold are more demographics, location and subsequently footflow. So its more location, location, location, rather than width, redan and F & F. Other reasons like ...where your friends play is more important that which course is the better one. Plenty of pubs do well that are minging inside and plenty of tidy pubs go bust, that is because of the interesting people that go the minging pub. A pub is all about the people and whilst a golf course is not the same, if you moved to Bristol and your friends played at The Players Club, thats where you would join.

There are a lot of patterns in this business and a lot of people come on to committees with the same views as many of you have and make the same mistakes.

I am quite certain what works and does not work in my area (South-west) is going to be very similar. I deal with big golf groups from all over the country and the patterns are the same. I do not mean that every single under 40 person thinks this way, I am referring to the majority.

I am a lot more on the side of the GCA view than you may think, but I try and be realistic of the position. I am horrified how many nice people take their electric trollies across tees and how many good players dont repair their pitchmarks. There is nothing wrong with a minority opinion as long as you can realise it is one, but if you want to make money the majority route is best. I also agree there are places for niche situations. I don't think a niche situation would work in many UK cities though because 'the 20 minutes from the golf club' is a very strong point in a descson to join.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 06:22:22 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

David_Elvins

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #118 on: November 25, 2013, 05:27:48 AM »
You have to operate with your golf course somewhere in the line that the membership is 20 or 30 (absolutely no more) the standard weekend green fee. Ie if your club charges £40 to play the membership should be £800 to £1200. If you allow third party operators or schemes to play for £20 then you will lose members.

Adrian,

If you set your membership as low as 20 x green fee and you get 200 of your golfers join who play an average of  twice a week then you are giving away 20,000 (prime time) rounds a year at a ridiculously discounted rate of 75% discount.  I fail to see how this is the answer.  
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Sean_A

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #119 on: November 25, 2013, 05:59:00 AM »
Adrian

I don't know of many good courses which will be in good nick and can be played on the weekend for £40.  Your theory seems to be centered around pay and play or proprietor clubs.  I am upset my club allows Sunday play for £50 (unless it is booked within 24 hours of the tee time) in the winter let alone open weekend access for £40.  Pricing of visitor rounds has as much or more to do with location and reputation of the club as the membership dues.  Though I know what you are driving at.  I thought about joining a club 30 minutes away, but the cost was £450.  I can play the course on a daily basis for at most £20.  Since I could care less about the club or comps, I couldn't get my head around the dues structure.  Obviously, it is designed for the guy who wants to play a ton or play in comps.

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #120 on: November 25, 2013, 06:05:00 AM »
You have to operate with your golf course somewhere in the line that the membership is 20 or 30 (absolutely no more) the standard weekend green fee. Ie if your club charges £40 to play the membership should be £800 to £1200. If you allow third party operators or schemes to play for £20 then you will lose members.

Adrian,

If you set your membership as low as 20 x green fee and you get 200 of your golfers join who play an average of  twice a week then you are giving away 20,000 (prime time) rounds a year at a ridiculously discounted rate of 75% discount.  I fail to see how this is the answer.  
David - That is how traditional golf clubs in the UK work, let me demostrate what happens typically with 500 members.


Rounds per year       number of members     unitPPR based at £800
over 160                       1                          £5
over 150                       2                          £5.33
over 140                       7                          £5.71
over 130                      16                         £6.15
over 120                      22                         £6.66
over 110                      29                         £7.28
over 100                      48                         £8
over 90                        81                         £8.88
over 80                        113                      £10
over 70                        146                      £11.42
over 60                        188                      £13.33
over 50                        212                      £16
over 40                        297                      £20
over 30                        362                      £26.66
over 20                        397 @ £40 The standard weekend Green
over 15                        411                      £53.33
over 10                        448                      £80
over 7                          459                      £114.28
over 6                          463                      £133.33
over 5                          467                      £160
over 4                          469                      £200
over 3                          475                      £266
over 2                          477                      £400
1 round                        481                      £800
no plays                 are 19                           OOPS

It is unlikely that you lose members from your over 30 timers, it is likely that you lose members from the bottom categories. Most people think they play about 25% more rounds than they actually do. People take the view "I did not play much this year but next year I will" the "I dont want to lose my joining fee scenario kicks in" but for clubs that dont have one, by dropping the joining fee these tail enders know they can come back when their circumstance changes, so a club with no joining fee will lose at lot more members.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 06:13:28 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #121 on: November 25, 2013, 06:12:34 AM »
Adrian

I don't know of many good courses which will be in good nick and can be played on the weekend for £40.  Your theory seems to be centered around pay and play or proprietor clubs.  I am upset my club allows Sunday play for £50 (unless it is booked within 24 hours of the tee time) in the winter let alone open weekend access for £40.  Pricing of visitor rounds has as much or more to do with location and reputation of the club as the membership dues.  Though I know what you are driving at.  I thought about joining a club 30 minutes away, but the cost was £450.  I can play the course on a daily basis for at most £20.  Since I could care less about the club or comps, I couldn't get my head around the dues structure.  Obviously, it is designed for the guy who wants to play a ton or play in comps.

Ciao  
Sean- The 20 -30 times the weekend green fee to price your membership is just a formula for calculating what to charge as a membership. Nearer 20 is better, it will still work up to 30 but outside 30 its hard for it to work.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark Pearce

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Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #122 on: November 25, 2013, 07:05:38 AM »
Adrian,

You make many good points (though I do think you believe there is only one model that can work whereas, in fact, the right number of clubs can survive in each category.  Your good points are let down by an almost deliberate refusal to acknowledge the reality of the clubs you don't like.  Your reference to knee length socks is one such.  I know of perhaps 3 or 4 clubs which have a long sock rule still and none of those (RCP, GHC and RSG) are short of members.  Most clubs that used to have such a rule have long since changed, even at HCEG.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #123 on: November 25, 2013, 07:46:08 AM »
Mark - I do think that there are other models that will work.

It is not always easy to get 'the full points' over when typing a short paragraph. If we were face to face its easier to debate, conceed and agree, I type like I would speak and I dont mean things as 100% literal as they may come across. I am sure we all agree that standards have dropped at most clubs (perhaps ALL) over the last decade or so. Things are not helped with Tiger Woods spitting, the 'your the man' scenario, caps worn back to front by PGA players and even in the last Ryder Cup cheering on back swings. I don't like it personally and I have tried to fight it, but I am not going to win.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?
« Reply #124 on: November 25, 2013, 08:11:43 AM »
Paul,

Been drinking, have we?  Not  only staggeringly rude but monumentally missing the point.  Your suggestion is that all B and C category courses are "waterlogged farm tracks" with old fashioned snobby memberships?  Do you actually play golf in the UK.

Not a drop.

Look, no offence was intended (although I assume suggesting that I lectured in social cscinces at a polytechnic was hardly meant as a compliment) but let me try to clear this up again.....

Firstly, let's just be clear that I suggested top end clubs would continue to thrive, as would the conveyor belt courses. It's all there in my previous posts.

At no point did I suggest any Club Cs were waterlogged farm tracks. I actually said before that some Club Bs would fall into that category (see reference to mutton dressed as lamb, although some older courses fall into that category as well) whilst many better, more modest but perfectly nice older clubs which fell into that Club B bracket were trying to please everyone and, in the event, pleasing very few.

The whole point here is the middle ground is oversupplied and, therein, only the fittest will survive.

And not only do I play golf in the UK, I work in it. I actually currently work at a formerly failing Club B which is now a very successful Club A. At the risk of receiving a P45 in the morning, it's not my cup of tea but it works for over 1,000 members and many more visitors on top of that. And, no, it's not the example I gave before, although it is under the same ownership. 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich