Pine Valley (pictures)

[Will Lozier]

Looks like they've lost a couple of bunkers on #11, what looks like a centerline bunker, and another on the far left (that might just be native with few trees which, honestly would make for improvement on the current version).

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Paul- it's actually a driveway. There is a house to the right of the bunkers on 2.

Phillip, I guess i'm having a hard time with this.  There is a driveway across the first fairway of the best course in the country?  Really?

How many driveways does one cross at Augusta National?  

There's a road across the first fairway at The Old Course at St. Andrews.

There happens to be a road to cross on the first hole at Cypress Point as well...

[JC Jones]

Paul- it's actually a driveway. There is a house to the right of the bunkers on 2.

Phillip, I guess i'm having a hard time with this.  There is a driveway across the first fairway of the best course in the country?  Really?

How many driveways does one cross at Augusta National?  

There's a road across the first fairway at The Old Course at St. Andrews.

There happens to be a road to cross on the first hole at Cypress Point as well...

12th hole at Crystal Downs too....

[Steve Burrows]

Paul- it's actually a driveway. There is a house to the right of the bunkers on 2.

Phillip, I guess i'm having a hard time with this.  There is a driveway across the first fairway of the best course in the country?  Really?

How many driveways does one cross at Augusta National?  

There's a road across the first fairway at The Old Course at St. Andrews.

There happens to be a road to cross on the first hole at Cypress Point as well...

12th hole at Crystal Downs too....

The 12th and 13th holes at Shinnecock, as well as the 17th and 18th at Ganton.  I suppose the point among all this is that having to cross a road during the playing of a hole hardly disqualifies a course from greatness.

[Scott Warren]

Tom Kelly:

Are the greens really just that good?

Yes. So are the tee shots, the approach shots and the recoveries!

More on the greens: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52310.0.html

[Philip Gawith]

Thanks for the link to your thread Scott. A great analysis of the greens and some good photos from you, and also from others, especially of number 2. I missed that discussion - albeit as you said it got a bit sidetracked. That said, Pat's discussion of how his opponent took eight on the first was very pertinent to the challenges the course plays. A medal round could be a pretty daunting prospect - if you can put your ball in your pocket occasionally, life is much simpler!

[archie_struthers]

 

Boy these are some wonderful photo's of Pine Valley , quite exceptional angles , well done. I don't presume to speak for the club in any way , just being a retired looper , but believe they are quite sensitive about anyone selling or making any replications of pictures for a fee . Otherwise , it's probably fine. PV is certainly a private place but it's about the golf, so can't imagine posting here is an issue.
Paparazzi not welcome, architecture students ok !

The only thing about the pictures that might be a little hard to imagine is the elevation changes in a flat spot on the planet. South Jersey is quite flat , with just a few exceptions. Pine Valley is one , Trump National Philly ( close by ) and Galloway National at the shore have the most in our area. If you look at the pictures of #4 , you can't see the fall from the tee shot to the green , it's just a wonderful hole , and often under appreciated relative to some of the others.

Thanks for the pictures , enjoyed them although I've been there a thousand times LOL. Never ceases to be fun .
 

[Phil Lipper]

Where are the elevation changes at Galloway? I have played there 3 or 4 times but I can't really remember any real changes in elevation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Looks like they've lost a couple of bunkers on #11, what looks like a centerline bunker,


Will,

There is no "centerline" bunker in the DZ on # 11.
Never has been.

I believe that's a bunker closer to the green.
About 40 yards short of the green

and another on the far left (that might just be native with few trees which, honestly would make for improvement on the current version).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul- it's actually a driveway. There is a house to the right of the bunkers on 2.

Phillip, I guess i'm having a hard time with this.  There is a driveway across the first fairway of the best course in the country?  Really?

How many driveways does one cross at Augusta National?  

There's a road across the first fairway at The Old Course at St. Andrews.

There happens to be a road to cross on the first hole at Cypress Point as well...

Let's not forget #'s 8, 11 and 13 at NGLA as well.

[archie_struthers]

 

Elevation changes at Galloway start on #1.   A really exceptional hole that is sometimes forgotten . Then there are numerous dips and rises as you walk 2 thru  5 on the front .  Back nine features an uphill 10th and 12th , downhill 14th. Then back up to the top of a hill on 16 downhill 18 etc etc.    remember this is a flat part of the world , so movement in South Jersey is very minimal .
  

[David_Elvins]

I can't remember if it has been mentioned before but is this a copy? 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Will (and Pat and Josh):

It looks like what's been lost on 11 is a sandy waste area on the right:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/PVGC.html

As the 1930 aerial shows, a number of holes have seen tree encroachment since 1930.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Will (and Pat and Josh):

It looks like what's been lost on 11 is a sandy waste area on the right:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/PVGC.html

As the 1930 aerial shows, a number of holes have seen tree encroachment since 1930.

There is still an area to the right that is a native type area (right behind the caddy in the color picture) the sand is overgrown with native grasses but it isn't a great place to be. It is smaller than the older picture with the trees now defining the dogleg but the area is essentially still there. the green side bunkers are still there also, albeit in different shapes and sizes as they changed with the passage of time.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks for that, Alan.

Speculation submitted for your thoughts: it seems from the old aerial like more of the green would have been visible from the tee. Perhaps back then a golfer's eye would have been drawn farther right than it would be today, therefore his shot might have been more likely to veer right, therefore the waste area over there more likely to get business.

I know the course / hole already is difficult, but does the tree line on the right define or frame the hole in a way as to tell the golfer where to hit it (and to make it "easier" for his mind / body to execute that, as opposed to just "knowing" he is supposed to play away from the green)?

Obviously I am asking leading questions, but I've never been there so take them as idle speculations. Personally, I find playing away from a green off the tee of a par 4 a major mental challenge.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Thanks for that, Alan.

Speculation submitted for your thoughts: it seems from the old aerial like more of the green would have been visible from the tee. Perhaps back then a golfer's eye would have been drawn farther right than it would be today, therefore his shot might have been more likely to veer right, therefore the waste area over there more likely to get business.

I know the course / hole already is difficult, but does the tree line on the right define or frame the hole in a way as to tell the golfer where to hit it (and to make it "easier" for his mind / body to execute that, as opposed to just "knowing" he is supposed to play away from the green)?

Obviously I am asking leading questions, but I've never been there so take them as idle speculations. Personally, I find playing away from a green off the tee of a par 4 a major mental challenge.

Mark

firstly before reading on bear in mind that I'm a grass grower not a golfer so I'm sure Archie will answer better

Saying that I would agree with you, in that back then you would have had a clearer view of the green from the tee and now it is more of a distinct dogleg. That waste area still collects balls, so it does force you to want to hit more left. To the left you have to consider how the (wide) fairway ends with the trees on the left, leaving the proper line along the right side so the ball rolls down and you have a nice easy shot to the green:) So yes it sort of indirectly guides you in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will (and Pat and Josh):

It looks like what's been lost on 11 is a sandy waste area on the right:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/PVGC.html


Mark,

That area isn't visible from the tee.
It's a sloped area that's essentially out of play

As the 1930 aerial shows, a number of holes have seen tree encroachment since 1930.

It used to be a lot worse, but, the encroachment still exists in a number of areas.

I first played there in 1964 and it was not as choked/lined by trees.

I suspect that benign neglect more than deliberate planting is the culprit

[Brett_Morrissy]

I was lucky enough to play Pine Valley in great weather about a month ago and thought i would share some of the pictures. I am not sure i have a great deal to add to the discussion so i will mostly let the pictures speak for themselves. Most of the pictures are from a bright morning but i have also included a few from the previous evening, hence the different light.
 The pictures don't really capture the slopes in the greens and why a three putt is always on the cards.

Phillip,
thanks for the thread, I am always happy to read about PVGC.
We all play a variety of golf courses, seeking a variety fulfilment and satisfaction from it, and spend our time on a wide variety of quality designs, or not so high quality (as relates to our reasons for the pursuit above).

I am fascinated by many things about the place, but from the information and discussion provided here at Golf Club Atlas, it is almost universally praised in the elite category (and duly recognised as such), as unique environment, "18 great holes", ideal routing, abundant strategy, tests the quality of each golfer's game, etc.

As a famous scientist (celebrity) here in Australia used to say: "why is it so?"

What surprised you the most about your first time (& I think you said this was your second visit) ? Why is it so far out of the realm of all others before it - because it does not have the seaside locale, with the views, the wind, etc,

Is it the tee shots, the approaches, the putting, the demands against or on your game? If you were speaking with a non-golfer, how would you try and get across to them the relevance of this course?

...and I have asked this before, why can this place not be repeated, assuming many have tried. I have not experienced this PV in the flesh, so the discussion in regard to blindness and visibility is difficult to grasp.

thanks for the new pics, again, they show different angles and from someone else's perspective.

[archie_struthers]

 

Brett , it's ephemeral of course but it's the flow!  

The succession of great holes one after another , all very different but all linked by great greens and architecture. Some really hard , some not , but all playable by a variety of golfers , if you keep your wits, and can putt!

It's the ebb and flow that make golf courses great, not a harsh staccato of difficult !

[Dan Herrmann]

A factor of PV that's seldom mentioned is that it may be the best smelling course in the world.  (Yes, I'm serous).

The course is simply great.   It's so great that I've driven up the road to catch a glimpse of #2 from across the railroad tracks.  I've watched tournaments at ANGC and PV, and I thought PV was the better golf course.   Keep in mind that I didn't have a club in my hands, so it's purely subjective.

Of course, they're both among the best in the world.  The only reason I grouped them here is because they both use pine trees as a primary design feature.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

You need to visit the South in the Spring.

The scent of the pines and flowers is far more appealing than  PV

[Philip Gawith]

Brett, sorry, I have been away so come late to your questions. I think if you look at some of my others posts in the course of this thread you will see that i did in one or two places try to elaborate on my thoughts about the course. And there are many others better placed than me to answer your points. But to try and address them directly:

- what surprised me most the first time i visited? I don't think anything especially surprised me. My dominant impression was that the course lived up to its enormous acclaim, which is quite something - and even allowing for the fact that it is obviously difficult to divorce yourself from all the hype. If there was surprise, perhaps it was that the course, for all its daunting reputation is certainly playable, especially off the tee. Maybe you dont want to be holding a medal card, but if you approach it in the right spirit i think most golfers would enjoy their round.
- why is it so outside the realm of other courses? I am not sure it is on an entirely different plane from other courses, at least not the other top courses. It is a difference of degree rather than of kind. That said, to my mind, the reason why it is such an impressive course is because it has the highest number of memorable holes of any course than i can recall (I mentioned elsewhere that only NGLA has maybe had a similar impact on me, at least by this criterion). There are many points in the round where you simply feel "wow", owing to some combination of the golf vista that lies in front of you and the shot you are required to  play.
- how would i explain its relevance to a non-golfer? I would try and give them a sense of the canon of great golf courses, what informs these judgements, why PV scores highly, why a visit there is so rewarding - a whole assemblage of qualitative factors.
- why could it not be repeated? I don't think that is true. I can't see why the best architects given the same site could not produce something very special.
- finally, all of this is focused on the course. But the experience is obviously much more than that - it takes in the overall site, which is completely unique; it takes  in the amazing history of the club; the sense that you are being allowed to partake in something very special, and are very privileged etc. These are all golf emotions, rather than points that strict GCA points, but they are  no less part of the overall experience.

Philip

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brett,

One of Pine Valley's strong points is that there isn't a bad or mediocre hole on the golf course.

Every hole is a "standout"

And, there's almost no hint of repetition, with the "almost" being the slight dogleg right on # 1 and # 6, although both holes differ significantly.

[Scott Warren]

Brett,

Philip's response captures a lot of it, and there are many factors that make Pine Valley.

It doesn't have a poor hole, and also has regular highlights (whereas Kingston heath doesn't have a poor hole, but doesn't have the highlights, and RM West has the highlights, but also has a few lesser holes).

The set of greens is massively varied, thrilling to play to and on, beautiful to look at.

The heroic moments are many and get your heart racing better than any other course I know.

Getting around the course is an adventure, plenty of coming over rises or around bends to discover what's beyond.

I also think a tremendous amount of what makes the course so brilliant, unmatched IMO, is the combination of extremely wide fairways and severe sandy areas flanking them. That creates an excitement driven by the possibility to be daring, to gain an advantage, knowing the severe punishment of not executing - all the while you could aim down the middle with a safe club all day and needn't go anywhere near the death that awaits. But the holes are just so tempting in what they offer that you are constantly feeling torn between the safe play and the exciting play. The course plays with your heart and your brain constantly. The great courses elicit an emotional reaction, and none does it as well IMO as Pine Valley.

The variety of greens, variety of shot shapes, of landforms, holes shaping left and right, open greens, blocked greens, uphill, downhill, birdie chances, holes that bash you - but all of it with a continuous character...

Being objective, it's extremely well-balanced:

Six "short" holes - 2, 6, 8, 10, 12, 17.
Six "medium" holes - 1, 3, 4, 9, 11, 16.
Six "long" holes - 5, 7, 13, 14, 15, 18.

Six "easy" holes - 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 17.
Six "moderate" holes - 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 16.
Six "hard" holes - 5, 7, 13, 14, 15, 18.

Nine open greens - 1, 4, 5, 6, 9, 11, 12, 15, 16.
Nine blocked greens - 2, 3, 7, 10, 13, 14, 17, 18.

There are plenty of quantifiable ways to describe why PV is the best there is, but they can't tell the whole story.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

I might classify # 13 green as open.

The fronting fairway helps direct the ball left, into the green