Pine Valley (pictures)

[Steve Kline]

I think it's a maintenance road not a cart path. It's been a long time since I was there though.

[Steve Okula]

Philip,

When I was at Pine Valley last year it was made clear to me that they wanted no photos posted in a public forum.

Has their policy changed?

[Scott Warren]

Steve,

I have never been told that at PV. In fact it hs been openly encouraged.

Roads cross a few holes at PV. Naturally, there's not much traffic!

[Philip Gawith]

Steve, i was myself not sure what the club's view was, so I took the precaution of checking with my host - a senior member -  and he was relaxed.

[Steve Okula]

Steve,

I have never been told that at PV. In fact it hs been openly encouraged.

Roads cross a few holes at PV. Naturally, there's not much traffic!

Then it must depend on who you talk to. The golf course superintendent, Rick Christian, was adamant that I was never to publish photos of the course in any media.

By the way Philip, it looks like you were blessed with perfect weather for the day.

And yes, I'll vouch for the fact that the course is way wider than it appears in the photos.

[Mark Chaplin]

You might notice the senior caddy comes back to the tees on the front nine and forecaddies on the back nine. Apparently they do considerably less walking on the back nine acting as forecaddy, hence the perk of the senior guy.

Phillip I think I have hit off all the back tees other than 4, it would need to be a great driving round to make it an enjoyable experience playing them all in one round!

[Philip Gawith]

Talking of caddies and perks....in the same trip we played at Merion and on the 17th tee the caddies gave us clubs to complete the hole, and drivers for 18, and then left us to our own devices. We only reacquainted with them for our second shots on 18. I thought that was a pretty poor show - basically too lazy to walk the length of 17 and then the return distance up 18.

[Mark Chaplin]

That's a poor show, I had a similar experience on a famous Long Island course with lazy caddies. Disappointing when you stand on the tee not knowing the best line and the caddies are 220 yards away puffing on cigarettes, strangely attentive at the back of the 18th green though!

[Philip Caccamise]

Paul- it's actually a driveway. There is a house to the right of the bunkers on 2.

[Paul OConnor]

Paul- it's actually a driveway. There is a house to the right of the bunkers on 2.

Phillip, I guess i'm having a hard time with this.  There is a driveway across the first fairway of the best course in the country?  Really?

How many driveways does one cross at Augusta National?  

[Michael Moore]

Paul- it's actually a driveway. There is a house to the right of the bunkers on 2.

Phillip, I guess i'm having a hard time with this.  There is a driveway across the first fairway of the best course in the country?  Really?

How many driveways does one cross at Augusta National?  

There's a road across the first fairway at The Old Course at St. Andrews.

[Phil Lipper]

I played there a couple of weeks ago I can tell you that the road, driveway etc. is hardly noticable in person. I hardly remember seeing it. You never get the feeling of anything other than you are walking a a spectacular golf course cut from NJ Pine Barrens.

[Philip Gawith]

Hmmm, I have been a little surprised that this thread has not prompted more discussion of the course! Lots of tangential asides, but not much focus on the course which, for all its status, is not so often shown in any photographic detail. Main comments seem to have been around the course looking narrower and more tree-lined than people assumed - not actually the case, as various have pointed out. I think what struck me more playing the course is how sandy it is - the trees tend to fade into the background.  Maybe I am to blame for my own relatively light comment on the course, or everyone is exhausted from previous bitter disputes about the course's history!

[Philip Gawith]

Brian, I played the course two years ago as well and did not notice any change though it is possible that point is true going back a few years before.

 I don't actually have a particular observation about the shape of the bunkers. The bigger point about bunkering at Pine Valley is that sand is a ubiquitous hazard pretty much throughout the course. If you miss a fairway, you are generally in a sandy lie, if not a bunker. Additionally, the bunkers are hugely irregular in shape which means you often have very difficult lies/stances. So sand/bunkers are a huge feature of the course, but to discuss the shape of bunkers at Pine Valley is, to my mind, to miss the larger point.  I suppose you can observe a certain style about some of the greenside bunkers, but I would have though their nature and scale is more of an issue (look for example at the sand around the greens on short holes like 3 and 10). And what you can't see, but if you miss a green like 5, or fairways like 4 and 13, you are probably in some funny little bunker which is extremely penal in nature!

I would probably go so far as to say that sand is a bigger feature at Pine Valley than any links I can think of. Maybe the sand hills of North Carolina compare, but I don't that sand is as big a factor at, say, Pinehurst No 2 as at Pine Valley - if memory serves!

[Sven Nilsen]

Have to say I was a bit surprised by the length of the grass between the fairways and many of the bunkers in the photos.  Think I prefer the look in older photos I've seen of the course where there doesn't seem to be as clear a delineation between the waste areas and bunkers and the short grass.

[Tom Kelly]

Phillip,

Having not been there and only seen photos I can't help but wonder what makes the course so special that it regularly comes out number one in rankings and personal lists? Yes the course in general looks fantastic with some great looking shots and greens but it appears to be very penal and there is obviously alot made of it's difficulty. Which so much sand, numerous forced carries and a huge variety of other what appear to be very severe hazards in play does the course ever become a slog? To be number one surely there is heaps of strategy in course, but it is hard to see in the photos. Other than a few cape style drives most appear to be hit the middle of the fairway or you'll really struggle or do the greens really affect your play from each tee? Are the greens really just that good? Are there options everywhere that don't appear at first sight? Are there recovery chances for mishit shots or are you just grabbing another ball from your bag or signing for a 10?! If you keep going back will it get better or just be really hard work?

Why and where does it beat TOC, Cypress, ANGC, County Down etc?

[Philip Gawith]

Pine Valley has long attracted superlatives. It is continually judged as the finest course in the world in large part because many would argue that a) it possesses more world class holes than any other course, b) the finest eighteen green complexes of any course, c) the finest collection of three shotters, d) the finest collection of two shotters (especially those under 370 yards), e) the finest collection of one shot holes, f) the finest three hole start and g) thefinest three hole finish. In between, it has a great halfway house!

Tom, this is what Ran has to say about Pine Valley in the first paragraph of his review. Who am I to argue?!

My own take - it is clearly a challenging course but I never for a moment felt like it was a slog, even when playing poorly. Many things go to contribute to the overall experience at Pine Valley, and they are not all on the golf course. But sticking to the golf, I would echo the comment above -  I think it stands out because there are so many memorable holes (2,3,4,5,10,13,14,15,18 at least) , and clearly no weak ones.

Is it particularly strategic? Others may answer this better than me, but my answer would be probably not - its strength lies in it being an exemplar of the "heroic" style probably unmatched elsewhere. It is not that it is necessarily so penal, but that you are often required to hit really good shots and yes, bad ones are severely penalised, but i think I remember the penal rather than the heroic. And maybe to make this more real - I am a somewhat wild, longish-hitting 7 handicap, and I did not lose a ball in 36 holes, though my ball was in my pocket 2-3 times. So not penal in maybe the way you imagine.

I have not played Augusta/Cypress (or Oakmont/Sand Hills) but I have played pretty much all the other top 20 courses in the world (taking the first list I found on Google) and for me, it beats the others simply because it gives a more intense and memorable golfing experience. I would say that only NGLA has produced a similar excitement/enthusiasm. I can't break down why that is in excessive granularity - partly it lies in what I have just outlined, partly in my comments elsewhere in the thread. My judgements of courses are affected quite a bit by the emotions they trigger and the associated memorability of the experience. I don't think I have played another course with nine memorable holes, when the balance are very strong too.

[Phil Lipper]

One of the things that is amazing about Pine Valley are how perfectly the changes and additions to the golf course blend into the existing. The member I played with pointed out a new bunker on 15 and said it was built earlier in the year. It looked perfect and it looked like it had been there forever. Many times observant players can notice changes that were done to a golf course in the last year, typically many don't fit in perfectly nor do they have that aged looked.

[Philip Gawith]

That is a good point Phil. I think if you look at the second picture of the 15th (the approach to the green) he is describing the whole bunker area short and right of the green - and it is an area rather than a single bunker. That is certainly pretty new and a big improvement over what was there before - as I recall, a largely undifferentiated bank of grass.

[Bill Crane]

Simply put, no two holes at P V resemble each other in any way. They also change direction constantly, it is very easy to remember the holes because of these two factors.

All the holes are just great designs.  The penal nature of the course almost obscures the design quality of the holes.

Hope you get invited back!  I would not post pictures of P V unless I knew the Board was actually comfortable with it.

And, it is not a place you could Rat & Plunger the name !  (see M McKinnon post).


Wm Flynnfan

[Michael Felton]

Pine Valley has long attracted superlatives. It is continually judged as the finest course in the world in large part because many would argue that a) it possesses more world class holes than any other course, b) the finest eighteen green complexes of any course, c) the finest collection of three shotters, d) the finest collection of two shotters (especially those under 370 yards), e) the finest collection of one shot holes, f) the finest three hole start and g) thefinest three hole finish. In between, it has a great halfway house!

Tom, this is what Ran has to say about Pine Valley in the first paragraph of his review. Who am I to argue?!

My own take - it is clearly a challenging course but I never for a moment felt like it was a slog, even when playing poorly. Many things go to contribute to the overall experience at Pine Valley, and they are not all on the golf course. But sticking to the golf, I would echo the comment above -  I think it stands out because there are so many memorable holes (2,3,4,5,10,13,14,15,18 at least) , and clearly no weak ones.

Is it particularly strategic? Others may answer this better than me, but my answer would be probably not - its strength lies in it being an exemplar of the "heroic" style probably unmatched elsewhere. It is not that it is necessarily so penal, but that you are often required to hit really good shots and yes, bad ones are severely penalised, but i think I remember the penal rather than the heroic. And maybe to make this more real - I am a somewhat wild, longish-hitting 7 handicap, and I did not lose a ball in 36 holes, though my ball was in my pocket 2-3 times. So not penal in maybe the way you imagine.

I have not played Augusta/Cypress (or Oakmont/Sand Hills) but I have played pretty much all the other top 20 courses in the world (taking the first list I found on Google) and for me, it beats the others simply because it gives a more intense and memorable golfing experience. I would say that only NGLA has produced a similar excitement/enthusiasm. I can't break down why that is in excessive granularity - partly it lies in what I have just outlined, partly in my comments elsewhere in the thread. My judgements of courses are affected quite a bit by the emotions they trigger and the associated memorability of the experience. I don't think I have played another course with nine memorable holes, when the balance are very strong too.

I was lucky enough to play the course 3 times about 15 years ago and from my memory, taking the holes you didn't mention in your list:

1 - the green. It's quite wide and flat at the front, but it narrows as you get to the back and god help you if you miss it. You therefore have the question of do I hit it to the safe spot at the front of the green and risk three putting or do I go for it and risk making 6.

6 - I think this is an awesome example of a risk-reward tee shot. The tighter you hit it to the trouble, the easier the second shot is. The safer the tee shot the harder the approach. My first round I leaked it a little right trying to take the brave route and took 7.

7 - This one is more of a series of hops between green bits

8 - I think this is a fantastic hole. A short par 4 played to a tiny green with a sloping fairway. It's probably more penal than strategic, but I could play this hole every day and never get bored of it.

12 - this is another great example of risk and reward. A good drive leaves a far easier second. Play it safe off the tee and you've got a much tougher approach shot. It's a fairly easy 5 if you want to take that option, but it's trying to make 3 or 4 that causes the big numbers.

16 - I think this is yet another risk reward hole. You have such a range of options from the tee. You play it safe to the left and you leave yourself with the worst angle to the green. If you want the good line to the green, you have to take on the longest carry to the fairway. To me, this is how a good hole should be put together. I love that there's a certain amount of difficulty that you have to face and you have a choice about where you face that difficulty

17 - this one's just flat out pretty to me. It's quite short, but no less difficult for it. I look at a card and see a hole this length and I typically think that should be easy. I enjoy that moment of "er, okay" that it offers.

[Philip Gawith]

Michael, i agree with all that you say. You do a better job than me describing the strategic features of some of these holes. And the fact that you remember the holes and the challenges they provide so clearly after 15 years is perhaps the most eloquent testimony of all!

[Josh Bills]

This photo of 3 from 1929 doesn't seem as crowded by trees as the current version, though still appears plenty penal in nature.  

[Michael Felton]

Michael, i agree with all that you say. You do a better job than me describing the strategic features of some of these holes. And the fact that you remember the holes and the challenges they provide so clearly after 15 years is perhaps the most eloquent testimony of all!

Never having had the opportunity to go back, I play the course in my head from time to time. That and I read Ran's review of it on here from time to time, which helps keep the memory fresh. I'm more jealous of people who get to play there than I am of those who get on Cypress or Augusta, and that's despite the fact I've played it and haven't played the others. Not only is it the best course I've ever played, but I can't imagine that another course could be any better.

My other thing about it is that it's the only course I've ever played where you could lift every hole off it and drop it on any other course and it would hold its own. There just isn't a weak hole.

[Josh Bills]

Appears this photo from 1959 of the 11th, shows the caddy program requires them to go to the same spot even all these years later!