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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2013, 07:36:39 PM »
Sean,
Would you join a dining club that had a golf minimum?

What we're really haggling about is whether to put the subsidy in the dues, or in a a minimum.
My arguement is that a minimum doesn't paint a real picture of the carrying costs of such subsidized items.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2013, 07:40:49 PM »
My ideal club wouldn't allow selfish people who whine about every item they pay for but do not use.  

BCowan

Re: What does your current ideal club look like? New
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2013, 07:43:21 PM »
...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 09:33:28 AM by BCowan »

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2013, 08:00:15 PM »
I'm 36, married with a baby on the way in less than 3 months. I'm the only in the family that plays golf (tried to get my wife involved but she has no interest in golf). I am an attorney now working in a corporate legal department. My schedule is somewhat regular but flexible enough that i can get away at times for golf. Until the baby arrives, my wife has always been great about letting me golf, but she doesn't go for excessive golf trips as her opinion is that I should play most of my golf at the club for which we pay dues.

My ideal club is:

1. interesting course that doesn't bore me and is easily walkable
2. great group of fellow members with whom to play
3. plays firm & fast
4. relatively close to home and work
5. affordable dues and no excess fees
6. allows unrestricted walking and carrying
7. ease of access or no tee times
8. simple food and beverage offerings (no food minimum preferable)
9. good practice facility
10. has a good, simple logo and reasonably stocked pro shop
11. does not insist on carrying me or my bag to or from my car
12. no one who makes snarky comments about those who criticize excess fees for superfluous fluff.

Basically I want a golf club because my wife and I rarely use the pool or tennis courts. A gym would be fine.  The ideal club is literally 5 minutes from my house but it's not an option. Kingsley is the closest place I've seen that fits my wish list (except that it's 6+ hours away and the season is short).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 02:05:18 PM by Brian Hoover »

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2013, 09:44:40 PM »
My confessional:

42 years old, two sons, 6 and 8, live in northeastern Kansas (KC Metro).  Married with a spouse who has taken lessons, played golf, but does not have any desire to play unless there is a wine bar at the end of her adventure.

Ideal club: Golf club, not quite my current club.

My current club negatives:

Flower budget
Massive club house
6.2 mile walk with severe elevation changes
All green, no brown
Guest fees are expensive

Positives:

No pool or tennis courts.  (They are part of the housing association I also belong to)
No food minimum
Recent, but strong Jr. program
Great teaching pros
Have never played a round over 4 hours (Even on holidays)
Will play every club in the bag
Men’s Grill - Drinking, smoking, telling lies, etc.
Within 4 minutes of my house
When the temperature drops below 50° or 10° C, half the membership is done for the year which is good for me ( see avatar in the upper left )
Membership capped at 325

Have belonged to 4 country clubs and by far, this club has more of the “serious golfer” member.

To my point of the golf club above, I am very happy with where I am at, however, I still think there would be a market in our area for a true golf club.  I understand there is potentially already a “Golf” club in our area.  I am serious enough that the thought has crossed my mind to buy a distressed club in our area and go for that market niche.  There is currently an entity that is buying distressed golf clubs and destroying them.  (According to others http://www.greatlifegolf.com) Why wouldn’t a serious golf club work in one of the instances?  

In other words, lay down the law at the beginning, during and legacy of the club.  Be bold in the message:

Love flowers, fountains, spending all afternoon on the course?  Our club is not for you...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 09:47:00 PM by Jason Hines »

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2013, 11:35:32 PM »
Thanks to all for posting.  I like reading about everyday golf clubs.  Sometimes I find myself wondering “what’s wrong with your club?” and why more folks don’t write more about where they play most of their golf.  I guess that I fall into that category of golfer that would rather be playing golf at almost any venue than not playing at all.  Good to hear that many of you find your golf club meets your needs and expectations.  For me, golf is all about having fun with friends.

I own and run a very ordinary golf course located in a pretty spectacular place.  It’s all about affordable golf.  And, yes, you can play here all year for the cost of one round at Pebble and a portion of your rate for a night in the Lodge.  It’s a public course but functions very like a golf club as most of the rounds are played by season pass holders who call themselves members.  The conditioning is minimal to keep the cost low.  It’s a sand-based course and plays beautifully firm and fast.  The clubhouse is modest and even more informal than Rich’s ideal club in Scotland (I love the place, don’t change it).  The dress code is you have to wear clothes.  There is a well-used bar and just basic food (sandwiches, burgers, dogs, etc.) on a daily basis, breakfast only on weekends and holidays.  We do specials and dinners for events, outings, weddings, and other functions that we cater.  F & B prices are inexpensive so our goal is to break even or make a few dollars.  The staff is under-paid but love working here, especially the golfers.  The course is fun to play, has great bones, very scenic, easy to walk, and easy to get on almost all of the time.  We’re open year-around, however December and January can be cold and snowy and some years we only have 9 holes open for play during those winter months.  The pace of play is decent, mostly under 4 hours, but, being public, we do have issues on very busy days.  So, in many ways, we share some attributes that many of you describe as ideal.

As for my personal afflictions, I’ll be 65 my next birthday and many of our golfers are similarly experienced.  I like to play fast, so I choose to play when I can play at a pace I enjoy.  That’s not a problem for me or my golf pals.  We play a lot.  So do most of our “members” who probably average 50 or more rounds a year.  By fast I mean 3-3.5 hours in a group of 4 or 5, but I have played many rounds in the 2-2.5 hour range, as I did recently at Clear Creek Tahoe with a golf pal, and somewhat surprising to the host pro. (Very cool course, BTW, we were about the only golfers, and didn’t mind a bit that they were punching the greens).

When I say our course is ordinary, I’m taking into consideration that most of you guys play some incredible golf courses.  I’ve played a few as well and appreciate the difference between a great course and almost everything else.  However, I love our course, our golfers, the club, and think that most of you would have a very good time playing golf here.  You would remember your round, even if you thought the course was short (6800 yds), quite scruffy, quirky, and the service friendly, but minimal.  It’s just a solid, small town golf course in a pretty wild and wooly place.
I won’t go so far as to say it’s an ideal club because it’s very hard to make it all work as well as we do.  It’s a fun job being the benevolent dictator of your own golf club, but it’s also a very difficult business to be in if your goal is to make a lot of money.  I wish every day I had a bunch of golf nuts like you guys as members.  We could be a very good golf course and club.  We’ve got our share of golf nuts, of course, and I love them all, but a lot of them have very different expectations about the game from those expressed here.
  
Affordable is a relative term.  As far as the golf goes, we’re a downright cheap place to play.  Cheap and good is a difficult combination to pull off.  I’m not complaining; it’s a good life and most of the time really fun.  Another difficult thing for me is that I’ve drunk the kool-aid about how good golf can be, know how much better our course could be, while also understanding our golfers and market.  Very frustrating knowing what we should do, what would be ideal for us, but also having to be realistic about the business side of things.

So, if any of you guys are looking for an ideal club, have a burning desire to turn a large fortune into a smaller one, don’t mind life in the rural West, want to exercise your golfing imaginations on a unique landscape, I’ve got just the place.  Otherwise, enjoy your golf wherever you can.  It’s supposed to be fun.  

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2013, 12:33:09 AM »
Thanks to all for posting.  I like reading about everyday golf clubs.  Sometimes I find myself wondering “what’s wrong with your club?” and why more folks don’t write more about where they play most of their golf.  I guess that I fall into that category of golfer that would rather be playing golf at almost any venue than not playing at all.  Good to hear that many of you find your golf club meets your needs and expectations.  For me, golf is all about having fun with friends.

I own and run a very ordinary golf course located in a pretty spectacular place.  It’s all about affordable golf.  And, yes, you can play here all year for the cost of one round at Pebble and a portion of your rate for a night in the Lodge.  It’s a public course but functions very like a golf club as most of the rounds are played by season pass holders who call themselves members.  The conditioning is minimal to keep the cost low.  It’s a sand-based course and plays beautifully firm and fast.  The clubhouse is modest and even more informal than Rich’s ideal club in Scotland (I love the place, don’t change it).  The dress code is you have to wear clothes.  There is a well-used bar and just basic food (sandwiches, burgers, dogs, etc.) on a daily basis, breakfast only on weekends and holidays.  We do specials and dinners for events, outings, weddings, and other functions that we cater.  F & B prices are inexpensive so our goal is to break even or make a few dollars.  The staff is under-paid but love working here, especially the golfers.  The course is fun to play, has great bones, very scenic, easy to walk, and easy to get on almost all of the time.  We’re open year-around, however December and January can be cold and snowy and some years we only have 9 holes open for play during those winter months.  The pace of play is decent, mostly under 4 hours, but, being public, we do have issues on very busy days.  So, in many ways, we share some attributes that many of you describe as ideal.

As for my personal afflictions, I’ll be 65 my next birthday and many of our golfers are similarly experienced.  I like to play fast, so I choose to play when I can play at a pace I enjoy.  That’s not a problem for me or my golf pals.  We play a lot.  So do most of our “members” who probably average 50 or more rounds a year.  By fast I mean 3-3.5 hours in a group of 4 or 5, but I have played many rounds in the 2-2.5 hour range, as I did recently at Clear Creek Tahoe with a golf pal, and somewhat surprising to the host pro. (Very cool course, BTW, we were about the only golfers, and didn’t mind a bit that they were punching the greens).

When I say our course is ordinary, I’m taking into consideration that most of you guys play some incredible golf courses.  I’ve played a few as well and appreciate the difference between a great course and almost everything else.  However, I love our course, our golfers, the club, and think that most of you would have a very good time playing golf here.  You would remember your round, even if you thought the course was short (6800 yds), quite scruffy, quirky, and the service friendly, but minimal.  It’s just a solid, small town golf course in a pretty wild and wooly place.
I won’t go so far as to say it’s an ideal club because it’s very hard to make it all work as well as we do.  It’s a fun job being the benevolent dictator of your own golf club, but it’s also a very difficult business to be in if your goal is to make a lot of money.  I wish every day I had a bunch of golf nuts like you guys as members.  We could be a very good golf course and club.  We’ve got our share of golf nuts, of course, and I love them all, but a lot of them have very different expectations about the game from those expressed here.
  
Affordable is a relative term.  As far as the golf goes, we’re a downright cheap place to play.  Cheap and good is a difficult combination to pull off.  I’m not complaining; it’s a good life and most of the time really fun.  Another difficult thing for me is that I’ve drunk the kool-aid about how good golf can be, know how much better our course could be, while also understanding our golfers and market.  Very frustrating knowing what we should do, what would be ideal for us, but also having to be realistic about the business side of things.

So, if any of you guys are looking for an ideal club, have a burning desire to turn a large fortune into a smaller one, don’t mind life in the rural West, want to exercise your golfing imaginations on a unique landscape, I’ve got just the place.  Otherwise, enjoy your golf wherever you can.  It’s supposed to be fun.

Great post Dave.  It reminds me of what golf is supposed to be.  I saw your course this summer from across the river while playing the "competition".  I wish I had made the time to check your club out.  Maybe next summer. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2013, 01:52:43 AM »
Sean,
Would you join a dining club that had a golf minimum?

What we're really haggling about is whether to put the subsidy in the dues, or in a a minimum.
My arguement is that a minimum doesn't paint a real picture of the carrying costs of such subsidized items.

Jeff

If members insist there should be a golf course next door, absolutely  8). One way or another it must be paid for.  I see no issue with charging a guy a minimum even if he never sets foot on the course, just like a minimum for the guy who never sets down at the bar or table.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2013, 02:36:03 AM »
Daryl,

Please do.  I’ve often extended the invitation to fellow GCAers to give it a go around Canyon Springs.  Call me, IM me, email me, I’ll hook you up.  I don’t even require that you listen to my theories about golf, golf courses, architecture, or whatever.  I’ll give you the tour if I have time.  I’d prefer to pay back what I’ve learned from this community with something real, tangible, and something you value, a golf experience you’ll remember.  To be honest, playing across the river is a lot of what we offer—a unique location and landscape and Blue Lakes is a fine course.  Quirky, short, not very walkable, but beautiful and fun.  We’re more a working class or “every day” version of that country club golf experience.  An affordable version, if you will, in our rural economy, but nothing around here is very expensive or exclusive. Hope you had a good time.  I have many friends over there and know the course almost as well as our own.  I’m not much of a golfer, a fairly straight hitter, but that course kicks my butt almost every time.  I hate lost balls, I love recovery shots, so BLCC is just not my cup of tea.  But each to their own.  I do like the contrast the two courses present.  I think it’s an interesting golf experience: two very different versions of the game virtually in the same location.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2013, 03:24:59 AM »
Reference a couple of points made above -

Bar levy - some folk are, for whatever reason, non-drinkers. I don't see it as appropriate/fair to make them pay a bar levy, especially when it's only a 'bar' levy and doesn't apply to snacks/food as well.

Bowling - you might be happy with folk wearing bowling shirts at you club but would you want Charlie "Two and Half Men" Sheen coming along!

Oh, and a couple of additions to my ideal list, as prompted by Duncans separate thread - "Are 'traditions' killing the traditional UK golf club?" - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57269.0.html -

21 - no reserved parking spaces (except for disabled/charity ones)
22 - no Captains (sic) -  chuckle, chuckle!

All the best

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2013, 03:43:50 AM »
Bar levy - some folk are, for whatever reason, non-drinkers. I don't see it as appropriate/fair to make them pay a bar levy, especially when it's only a 'bar' levy and doesn't apply to snacks/food as well.

When I say bar levy it means food and drink.  "Bar" just refers to ordering at the bar.

I guess my issue with folks who don't want to support the club to the tune a very small per year when the cost for staff etc is set is that there are things I don't want to pay for, but do.  A pro for instance, not interested.  Driving range, practice facility (other than putting green), not interested.  Pro shop, not interested.  Big dining room, not interested.  But, I accept all this because it comes with the turf, just as a bar does.  My bottom line is I don't believe in folks picking and choosing which elements of their club they want to financially support.  If you join a club, you are in and therefore have an obligation to support it - end of story.  If members don't support the cllub whats the point?  Give up your membership and move on.  

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2013, 06:21:50 AM »
My current club has dues of $395/mo and $100/mo food minimum. In my mind my golf membership costs $495. I hear other members say the dues are $395/mo. They are not. The food minimum is not optional so it should be added to the dues.

I played at this club growing up and just rejoined in August. So, I knew the food minimum going in. I chose the club because it is easily walkable, rounds are quick, it has a PEFECT location, and I know a lot of the guys. However, the food minimum always irritates me. I'm a foodie. My wife and I spend a lot of money on eating out. I seek out Michelin star restaurants when traveling. I eat some pretty crazy stuff. I love traveling and eating in Asia. A country club is never going to be a place I want to eat. The food and service generally suck. I'd rather just eat at home.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2013, 09:00:22 AM »
My current club has dues of $395/mo and $100/mo food minimum. In my mind my golf membership costs $495. I hear other members say the dues are $395/mo. They are not. The food minimum is not optional so it should be added to the dues.

I played at this club growing up and just rejoined in August. So, I knew the food minimum going in. I chose the club because it is easily walkable, rounds are quick, it has a PEFECT location, and I know a lot of the guys. However, the food minimum always irritates me. I'm a foodie. My wife and I spend a lot of money on eating out. I seek out Michelin star restaurants when traveling. I eat some pretty crazy stuff. I love traveling and eating in Asia. A country club is never going to be a place I want to eat. The food and service generally suck. I'd rather just eat at home.

Steve, I agree completely about including food & beverage minimums in the overall dues (same with capital fund and other compulsory fees).  I also agree that having much more than sandwiches or soup and a couple beers is pointless.  If I want a great meal with my wife, a country club is not where I'd normally choose to go find it.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2013, 09:19:09 AM »
I don't understand the thrill with no tee times, even though I belong to a club that has no tee times.  I belonged to a club before that had tee times and found many advantages to having them.

1.  You know you will be able to tee off when you plan on doing so
2.  If you do not have a game, you can see when friends our playing and sign on with an email to them to make sure it is ok.
3.  You know where the open spots are so that if you want to play alone, or practice on the course you can do so.

Not having tee times works fine as long as the membership is small enough that it is not a problem getting on the first tee at peak times.  It helps if the staff knows where people are on the course and can shuttle you to an open spot if needed.  Usually the staff of a good club will want to know you are coming out beforehand so they can have your clubs ready and order play in a manner that makes sense, so in practice not having tee times works pretty much the same as having tee times, just without the advantages I list above.

My suspicion is that what people really want is a relatively empty course - which is either very expensive or indicates the place is struggling.  

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2013, 09:23:45 AM »
Steve, I'm with you on food. My food minimums aren't terrible, and I can hit them by grabbing a 10th Tee Bar and a G2 or water at the turn and a beer once in a while. But even though I like our kitchen just fine, I can't imagine spending $100 in food every month when I live in a neighborhood loaded with really great, innovative, affordable restaurants.

From the 50s through the 90s, golf and real estate in the US married each other. A lot of people made a lot of money and the partnership worked nicely for forty years, but the demise over the last 20 years has revealed that the association between the two wasn't sustainable and ultimately damaged the game. I wonder if we'll see the same thing over the next 30 years with the partnership between golf and food. It's worked nicely for a long time, but as our palates have expanded and a more innovative US restaurant industry has emerged, I think the viability of club dining has been compromised and I don't really see a way to fix it.

There's probably a bigger conversation to be had about the viability of private clubs in general. The results of this thread so far suggest that country clubs are doomed. I'm surprised that more people haven't expressed a preference for clubs loaded with "classic" amenities, but maybe the golf nuts on this forum just comprise a more golf-centric segment of the market.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2013, 09:45:10 AM »
Jason Topp, one of the many digressions in the Plainfield thread discussed clubs with no tee times. It got me thinking about the advantages of a tee-time-free club a little further.

Ideally, a club's members should be connected to each other. The more people at my club that I know and enjoy seeing and playing golf with, the better. It gives me additional reason to be loyal.

My club doesn't have tee times and also has no official written rules for tee prioritization. If 15 members show up all at once, the decision of who goes out first ultimately belongs to the golf shop. However, it rarely gets to them. Since we don't have tee times and no one has a slot that belongs to them, and since we also don't have official protocols that give one player the "status" to go out ahead of another, we're much quicker to discuss the teeing order and figure it out amongst ourselves as members. It makes us more respectful of each other and we really do work together to make sure everybody is happy. Furthermore, without tee times, no one has to organize their foursome beforehand. I might call a friend or two and see if they want to come out, but I know there are plenty of times during the week when I can walk to the pro shop and find 10 or 20 guys who have just showed up looking for a game and not necessarily committed to playing with a particular trio of guys over another. More often than not, an impromptu game between our groups gets thrown together and we often end up splitting into unexpected foursomes and playing with guys we haven't met before.

I suspect that it would backfire at other clubs and lead to arguments. It surely wouldn't work everywhere. But I think there can be some social benefits to a club without tee times that makes a club quicker to assimilate new members and builds more camaraderie while minimizing some of the resentment that can result from solving prioritization issues through policy. When I first joined, it was nice knowing that I could show up to the course basically any time and that I would probably find a few guys in fluid groups who would invite me to play. It feels a bit more daunting to just show up as a new guy when there's a tee sheet with written groups. It feels more like imposing when you get added into an already exiting group of two or three.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Michael Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2013, 10:06:20 AM »
Will take the plunge here – I’m in my mid 30’s and in the same city as our topic creator.  Married with 2 younger girls, ages 7 and 3.  Wife will every now and then go to the driving range with me as will the 7 year old, but by no means are they all that interested in golf at this stage.

I’ve been at our club, it’s a golf club only, since the age of 6 when my dad joined after a 6 year wait.  I just took regular membership in 2012 as my junior membership was up at age 35.  While there are a few things I might change about the place (I’ll comment on those), it’s pretty darn ideal for my current situation:

1. Decent course that is fun to play on a daily basis and has made some nice strides in green conditioning and tree removal in the last 3-4 years.  It won’t crack anyone’s top 20 list but it has a nice variety of holes and a shorter hitter like myself gets to hit a lot of clubs in the bag in a typical round.
2. Great active membership (350 regular members) that love to play and they enjoy and promote the fact that it will remain a golf club only and provide one of the low cost private options in the area.  Can’t stress enough how many good people are members there and how enjoyable it is to play with these people.
3. Relatively speaking for private golf, it’s quite affordable.  Initiation in the low 4 figure range and annual dues are $3k.  That includes unlimited use of a very fine practice range that was built about 6 years ago.  No restaurant minimums.
4. Easily walkable course and you can walk whenever you want.  We have a lot of push cart users.  Club usually employs a handful of caddies each summer for those that would like one.
5. No tee times but lots of money games that are open to anyone and everyone.  Up to three different money games depending on the day.  They accept anyone and all you have to do is call the pro shop about 30-45 minutes ahead of the game.  A fun Tuesday afternoon scratch game as well.  
6. Pace of play is usually pretty good, it’s rare to be out there over 4:15, if you’re a dew sweeper or catch the course more open rounds are more like 3:30/3:40.
7. It’s close to home, just about 2-3 miles away.

Fortunately I’ve been able to stay here despite not playing nearly as much because of increased time for the girls activities.  A couple things have made that possible – a) the relatively lower cost as mentioned above, b) we live in a newer subdivision that has a pool that we use frequently in the summer, and c) I’m perfectly fine with practicing 2-3 times for every 1 time that I play and we have a great practice facility.  Trust me, over the past 3-4 years sending that semi-annual check in has given me some second thoughts but I really enjoy the time I spend at the club and I feel like for the most part our vision for the club is sound.

Like a lot of the more golf nut GCA types, I’d love to see us take out 50-75% of the trees on our now 50+ year old course and I think we are making progress towards that thinking with the help of our USGA agronomist consultant and some enlightened board members.  However, we also just passed a vote to tap into a well not far from the golf course which will supply unlimited water in the event of draught conditions (this is scary to me as we still have a majority membership which thinks green is the end all be all of conditioning.)

Brent Hutto

Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2013, 10:20:50 AM »
I think "no tee times" can be a marker for a couple different club characteristics, moreso than something good or bad in its own right.

It can be a marker for a club that does 200 rounds of golf a week in peak busy season and a third that much otherwise. No need for tee times if there are never more than 20-30 golfers on the property at the same time.

Or it can be a marker for the kind of culture Jason describes where everyone by and large wants to show up, mill around for a good part of the day and eventually find their way out in some sort of large group game or smaller match of some kind.

My club and most of the places I'm familiar with are at least at times busier than a no-tee-times course could handle. Seems if there will only be 300 rounds of golf played all week then 250 of those people want to tee off at 10:30am on Saturday. The culture of my club is oriented toward fixed tee times reserved for large groups. Not fixed groups who tee off at the same time each day but just a "9:30 game" then a "10:30 game" along with the "Ladies Game", each of which are generally open to whoever shows up that day and wants to play.

But for my part and I think speaking for the great majority of other members, I would not in any way find it preferable to show up at 9:00am for a game that will start some time between 9-ish and 11-ish depending on when the tee is open enough for 20-30 of us to go out. I just don't see that as a big improvement over knowing when to show up. Like I say, this is not a club with 70 members living within 40 miles though. That would be a whole different mindset I'm sure.

Brent Hutto

Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2013, 10:23:43 AM »
Let me also add that there's a difference between a course HAVING tee times versus REQUIRING tee times. There are very, very few occasions (outside tournament days) where I can 't show up unannounced and get out to play within an hour or so. Typically more like 20-30 minutes. But there is a tee sheet and if I want to call ahead and book a time I can do that and know exactly when I'm playing.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2013, 10:58:18 AM »
The culture of my club is oriented toward fixed tee times reserved for large groups. Not fixed groups who tee off at the same time each day but just a "9:30 game" then a "10:30 game" along with the "Ladies Game", each of which are generally open to whoever shows up that day and wants to play.

That sounds a lot like us, Brent. We never have 70 people showing up at a time and waiting for hours to get out. I don't think I've ever waited longer than 30 minutes. Most of us have a certain window that we play in frequently. I play in our noon game on Saturdays pretty regularly, but we have several other groups who go off earlier or later.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: What does your current ideal club look like? New
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2013, 11:01:37 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 09:26:24 AM by BCowan »

BCowan

Re: What does your current ideal club look like? New
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2013, 11:02:51 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 09:26:59 AM by BCowan »

Brent Hutto

Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2013, 11:20:04 AM »
Quote
We never have 70 people showing up at a time and waiting for hours to get out.

Yeah, on a busy Saturday or Sunday if our 9:30, 10:30 and ladies groups all showed up at once we'd be looking at anywhere from 50 to 70 people. Of course we do have 27 holes so that would help. But it would still be messy.

Lately play has been down, though. If membership and rounds played don't pick up some next year (and assuming we would survive financially if they don't) we could well find ourselves in the "don't need tee times" category before we know it. That would DEFINITELY not be a good thing though!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2013, 12:11:14 PM »
Tee times or not is completely situational.  I like times at my cub because I llive 1:30 away.  If there were no times, I wouldn't have joined.  Also, for clubs with a good comp schedule, times are essential during these periods.  I did belong to a club with no times except for fixed comp days and it worked well, but I lived nearby so it wasn't a big deal if on the rare occasion I waited an extra 30 minutes.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does your current ideal club look like?
« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2013, 08:31:35 PM »
Background: Close to retirement.  Financially able to join just about anywhere.  Have played since I was 5 years old. Single digit handicap since I was 14 years old.  Played state & local amateur events in the past, enjoyed while never threatening to win anything. Member of private clubs for most of my life.  Non-member for the past 8 years as I've not found a club that I like enough to join, and as I will move for retirement, with availability of a club a major location consideration.

I care about:

- Financially stable, membership stable, no debt, no assessments. (Run as a business. Ensure that my investment is protected)

- Well conditioned course

- Course that's “playable”
    - not too easy, not too difficult
    - no “environmental areas” off limits
    - no stupidly difficult holes without options

- Good practice facility (bunkers, area to pitch to a green, grass tees (no mats!!)

- Friendly members that play together regularly

- Professional, courteous staff

- Friendly competitions (simple tournaments. frequent, golf-only, member-guests)

- Value (I'll pay 2x cost per round over what I could pay for similar public)

- Simple member lounge (drinks & bar food)

- That's all!

I Don't care about/want:

- Pool (if I want one, I'll install my own)

- Tennis (I don't play. If I did, I'd join a tennis club)

- Fitness center (if I want one, I'll join one - that's not also trying to run a golf course)

- Dining (there are plenty of good restaurants around – that aren't also in the golf business)

- Committees & stupid club rules (don't tell me what to do – just maintain the course)

- Large, fancy clubhouse

- Weddings, parties, catered events

- Kids at the 18th green that wipe your clubs with dirty rags for a tip


I'll go there several times a week, 52 weeks a year, to play golf with a regular group of guys & have a beer & sandwich after.

Occasionally, I'll bring guests or business associates, again to pay golf & drink a beer after.

Other than that usage, I'll not go there for anything else.  My wife will never set foot on the property, as she does not golf.

Horror stories for my past:

- having a neighbor who laid down $50K to join a new club, which went chapter-11 in it's second year, taking all of the members' initiation money with it

- friend whose club recently spiraled into years of rising dues, assessments, and loss of members, leading to him quitting & getting no initiation
returned

- belonging to a club that spent more on maintaining the clubhouse & covering restaurant losses than it did on course maintenance

- belonging to a another club whose member-guest consisted of 3 dinners with spouses, a 'Las Vegas' fake gambling night, a fashion show, a concert by an over-the-hill rock group, and 36 holes of stroke play tournament where they sold mulligans and had "hit inside the painted circle" contests on all par 3s

- belonging to a club that gave me a 150 page book or 'rules and regulations', which included forbidding changing shoes in the parking lot, playing out of a flower bed,  or playing more than one ball regardless of day or time

- getting an assessment to repair a swimming pool that not more than 2 dozen members ever used

- getting a reprimand letter from the board after sending a meal back to the kitchen in the club restaurant and telling the dining manager that it was inedible