[Jon Wiggett]

David,

I appreciate your reply but I am not saying that you should alter the 19th hole but rather the 18th green closer to the clubhouse. Being able to look across half the course is great as a general back drop but it is what is happening on the last green that is interesting. I am not saying that this would be practical in this case as I do not know the course.

Jon

[Scott Warren]

David:

Ever try to chip and run an 8 iron on bermuda? Think again, it doesn't work, it doesn't work with a 7 iron either, unless you can get the ball rolling on the grass with no spin. Try using a 4 iron, then it start to get possible (read predictable).

This is laughably incorrect. I've not played Wolf Point, but have played almost all my life on couch grass (aka Bermuda).

The chip and run is absolutely part of the game on couch/Bermuda if the ground and turf are prepared appropriately. Hell, even kikuyu chips and runs just fine if its prepared well and the shot is played deliberately.

Couch/Bermuda doesn't chip and run as effortlessly as fescue or bent, but with a little getting to know how, adjusting and hitting links shots on well-prepared couch/Bermuda on a firm soil is fine.

[Mark Pearce]

David,

One of the players in your group in the afternoon at BUDA lost a ball in the rough I am talking about.  To be honest, I thought it was you but I may be wrong on that.  Definitely your group, though, so I guess your memory isn't what it once was.  If you're saying that the option there is lost ball rough or OOB then I guess I'd say that was an architectural flaw.

[Sean_A]

Scott

How often are bermuda surfaces kept dry enough for the ground game?  I just came back from bermuda land, the grass is dormant so its about as good as it gets for golf and very difficult to better. In the summer its a different matter  .  Even so, I did play a course that was bermuda and not kept short and firm; it was night and day. Bumping shots was tough.  An adjustment could probably be made - given time, but the big issue then becomes the disparity between fairway and green firmness.  Essentially, the ground game is taken away.  I struggle with the ground game everytime I visit the US unless its on high end bermuda courses in winter.  Its hard to revisualize shots that give the signals of keeping the ball down, but in fact must be treated just as if there is a hazard in the way.  

David, the comments made tend to make me think the hole is far from ideal.  I don't know, but its clear people have made architectural comments that for one logistical reason or another you have thrown back.  Thats life, everything can't be perfect.  I think it is best to remember that many will be making comments based on the the course being a links.  Given that wonderful soil, why bury it in rough?  It could well be thats as good as it gets given the situation of the lot being nearby.  

But back to the main issue, what purpose does lengthening the tee serve?  

Ciao

[David Davis]

David:

Ever try to chip and run an 8 iron on bermuda? Think again, it doesn't work, it doesn't work with a 7 iron either, unless you can get the ball rolling on the grass with no spin. Try using a 4 iron, then it start to get possible (read predictable).

This is laughably incorrect. I've not played Wolf Point, but have played almost all my life on couch grass (aka Bermuda).

The chip and run is absolutely part of the game on couch/Bermuda if the ground and turf are prepared appropriately. Hell, even kikuyu chips and runs just fine if its prepared well and the shot is played deliberately.

Couch/Bermuda doesn't chip and run as effortlessly as fescue or bent, but with a little getting to know how, adjusting and hitting links shots on well-prepared couch/Bermuda on a firm soil is fine.

Scott,

Your playing in OZ right? I'm not a grass expert but perhaps it's not Bermuda, I did think it was though. The grass is sticky so if you put spin on the ball it just plain stops. Off hand I think Torrey Pines might be similar. I've played a lot of golf in OZ and have not experienced the same thing. So it's definitely the type of grass as everything there was firm and maintained perfectly. If you chipped a lower iron it would roll a bit more.

Perhaps someone will chime in on the difference. However, chip a low shot with an 8 iron there the ball just bites hard. I didn't find it to be predictable but perhaps you are just a much better player than I am.

[David Davis]

David,

One of the players in your group in the afternoon at BUDA lost a ball in the rough I am talking about.  To be honest, I thought it was you but I may be wrong on that.  Definitely your group, though, so I guess your memory isn't what it once was.  If you're saying that the option there is lost ball rough or OOB then I guess I'd say that was an architectural flaw.

Mark,

Either we are thinking of completely different areas or you just got unlucky. You don't seem to remember the parking lot or OB I guess. I don't really think this stuff is in play and I can't even remember who I played with last weekend, let alone who I played with at which club during the BUDA. Did we play together then at Noordwijkse? The real trouble left would be around and just after the dogleg but that's not rough that is gorse.

Maybe your ball went OB, but either way it sounds unlucky and it's really highly unlikely to lose a ball short left.



Please see this photos, I know it's tough to tell but you can see that left is the car park other wise it's pretty open once you are past the gorse. The rough there at it's worst which it may of been in July is not what I'd consider ball losing. It may be more likely if we are talking about the same place that your ball took a bad hop and did in fact go into the parking lot. ?

[Scott Warren]

Your playing in OZ right? I'm not a grass expert but perhaps it's not Bermuda, I did think it was though. The grass is sticky so if you put spin on the ball it just plain stops. Off hand I think Torrey Pines might be similar. I've played a lot of golf in OZ and have not experienced the same thing. So it's definitely the type of grass as everything there was firm and maintained perfectly. If you chipped a lower iron it would roll a bit more.

Perhaps someone will chime in on the difference. However, chip a low shot with an 8 iron there the ball just bites hard. I didn't find it to be predictable but perhaps you are just a much better player than I am.

According to this (http://www.pgatour.com/tourreport/2013/01/22/turf-talk--torrey-pines.html), Torrey Pines is a mix of kikuyu and Bermuda overseeded with Ryegrass.

I hit plenty of 9i and PW recovery shots that bounce and roll beautifully on the couch here in Sydney, and on the Sandbelt courses in Melbourne. It really isn't a drama.

Scott

How often are bermuda surfaces kept dry enough for the ground game?  I just came back from bermuda land, the grass is dormant so its about as good as it gets for golf and very difficult to better. In the summer its a different matter  .  Even so, I did play a course that was bermuda and not kept short and firm; it was night and day. Bumping shots was tough.  

The ground is kept firm and the grass short plenty here on Melbourne and Sydney courses that are couch. Your issues above appear to be with conditioning rather than grass type.

And I agree that dormant couch/Bermuda is the next best thing to fescue. We had a dry, warm winter in Sydney this year and playing on the dry, firm, dormant couch was unbelievably good fun.

[David Davis]

According to this (http://www.pgatour.com/tourreport/2013/01/22/turf-talk--torrey-pines.html), Torrey Pines is a mix of kikuyu and Bermuda overseeded with Ryegrass.

I hit plenty of 9i and PW recovery shots that bounce and roll beautifully on the couch here in Sydney, and on the Sandbelt courses in Melbourne. It really isn't a drama.

______________________

Scott, I've played a fair bit of golf on the Sandbelt and in Sydney at The Australian, NSW, Royal Sydney and Killara and we are talking about completely different things. Don't ask me why exactly because as I said I can't explain the difference in grass completely. I was under the impression we were playing on Bermuda, definitely could be wrong. However, whatever it is you can't compare it to what you are playing on in Sydney or the Sand Belt. I found all those courses very easy and predictable to bump and run on, "laughably" so!

[John Mayhugh]

David,
The biggest problem with the 18th is the green and surrounds.  Part of this is maintenance and part of this is design.  

The photo below isn't very good as it's been zoomed in from a larger one.  In your defense of the hole, you talk about how common it is for members to play run up shots on the hole, but given the way the green falls away front and left, it seems that a successful run up approach is more likely from the left side (rather than the right), so why take on the fairway bunkers or drive near them to get a worse approach angle?  This is especially true when there is hay growing to the left of the green.

In an earlier post, you said:
what I don't like about left of this green is that it falls off too severe. I would like this to be raised up a bit, left of the green is definitely a penalty and too be avoided, right is safe.
I don't understand what you mean by saying the right side is safe.  I really wouldn't want to end up in the bunker guarding the front right when a missed shot long out of there means a likely lost ball (during the summer, anyway).

The comparison of this green to the 5th at Mildenhall doesn't work for me.  Yes, there is a more severe fall-off on each side of that green, but one is left with a difficult recovery - not a lost ball.  This is also a par 3 where the distance of the shot and angle is established by the tee, not the first shot, and everyone has a perfect lie to hit the approach.  

[Mark Pearce]

David,

No, we didn't play together.  I was standing behind the green waiting for your group to finish.  I'm slightly surprised that you don't remember the round, given that you earlier claimed to remember that in none of your 400 previous rounds had you seen a ball lost left of the green.  Your photo doesn't show the green but the area I am taking about is just short of the rough on the left in John's photo.  I know from discussions at BUDA that several players lost their balls in that rough during the 2 rounds I was there for.

I think John's photo also gives an idea of the steepness of the slope fronting the green and the difficulty of running a ball up.

[Diederik Visser]

I haven't seen many lost balls short left either in 150 rounds or so. I have seen many lost balls around the fairway bunkers though.
What I don't like about the changes is:
(1) the long walk back
(2) the chance that groups will wait on each other to hit on the fifteenth and eighteenth tee. Making play even slower during our back tee tournaments.
What I do like very much:
The loss of the runway tee

David,

Is the hole really such a push-over for the stronger players even when the wind is up?

Another more general question:
Is there anyone who has played Noordwijkse who thinks the course isn't enough of a challenge? Or too short?

[David Davis]

David,

Is the hole really such a push-over for the stronger players even when the wind is up?

Another more general question:
Is there anyone who has played Noordwijkse who thinks the course isn't enough of a challenge? Or too short?

Diederik,

You might have to define what you mean by when the wind is up. Does that mean our annual average wind of 4.8 windforce or do you mean up as in 6,7 and above? I would say for all winds except straight into your face which almost never happens the hole is too easy of a finishing hole for the guys between hcp 4 and +4. If they can hit iron, then wedge or 9 iron that's just not a strong finish because the green is large for Noordwijkse standards and there is just little risk of danger.

As I've mentioned in this post, I'm mixed on the hole idea of making things longer.

I believe Mark, Ulrich, John, Michael and Ward all found the course too short and far too easy. However, in my opinion, I think it's too hard which is why I'm pushing for the points I've mentioned here in this thread.

We played the BUDA in July and you can see the rough was up quite a bit (at least for these guys), we know that this was a very light rough year, nothing compared to the year before which I hope never to see again.

With that I'll defend Mark that it may have been possible to lose a ball left there. Just not as likely a place as by the bunkers indeed. However, at the end of the day it's possible to lose a ball anywhere at Noordwijk if you miss hit, pull or push anything from the fairway.

I'm also guessing Mark was completely beaten up by the time he made it the 18th and may have lost his last Pinnacle. As hopefully he would of smartened up a bit after playing #2 and #4, #5 etc etc and losing those expensive Pro V1's he's normally playing.  

[Ulrich Mayring]

How many members have handicaps between -4 and +4?

If I remember correctly we had a match decided on #18 by way of a player narrowly missing the right bunker and getting stuck in the hay. I don't think that is how finishing holes should work

By the way, why is a finishing hole "too easy", when good players attack it with long iron and wedge? They could certainly drive the green then. And even if they can't (because of the hay left of the green) it still is a very difficult hole, because they would need to make birdie and par is a ho-hum score.

I guess my question is: what is your definition of difficult in the sense of "fitting for a final hole, where matches get decided"?

Ulrich

[David Davis]

Ulrich,

I figured out that there 20 guys, maybe more. That's about 10% of our active membership. I'd say that justifies this.

And yes I think a closing hole should be one of the tougher holes ending in a bit of a climax I guess. That makes our last 3 holes a really strong finish.

Mark, Ward, Michael, John and Ulrich,

Take a look at the Pine Valley thread. I know you complain because Noordwijkse is too hard, try playing Pine Valley. I'd suggest you've not seen hard until you play that course. Look at the photo of the first hole. Left side has a steep and deep slope fall off into deep rough. Hit there and you might just hope you don't find your ball so you aren't forced to pick up after the first couple hacks.

[John Mayhugh]

Here's all I have said about the difficulty of Noordwijkse:
On most all of the courses in Holland, the surrounds (and sometimes greens) were simply too lush.  In my view, Noordwijkse is made a good bit tougher by this maintenance practice.  On a links, one ought to be able to bounce the ball onto greens.  When there are elevated greens and soft surrounds, this becomes very difficult.  For very good players, this may not make much difference.  For guys at my skill level, it really impacts scoring and enjoyment of a course.

I have never "complained" about the course being "too hard" as David states. 

David, I'm really confused by your reaction to discussion of the course.  I can think of numerous times where you've talked about the difficulty of the course and how visitors should add ten shots to their normal score.  At Buda, you encouraged people to play from the back tees so they could properly appreciate the difficulty of the course.  Yet you also seem to be piqued by any suggestion someone makes that the course is tough or too tough.  Which do you want?  Do you want everyone to agree it's very tough and we need to add shots to our normal score, or do you want us to have fun?  Lesser players like me may equate difficult with fun.

[Mark Pearce]

David,

Let me reiterate a few points I have made in this thread which you may have missed:

1.  I don't mind difficult courses.  I loved Carnoustie, I really enjoyed Wolf Run.  I didn't break 100 at either.
2.  Noordwijkse is a very good golf course indeed.
3.  Noordwijkse is on a world class piece of land.
4.  Noordwijkse is very difficult.

My view is that Noordwijkse is a missed opportunity.  On that piece of land it should have been possible to build a World Top 50 course.  It isn't, and it isn't close.  Why?  Not simply because it is difficult.  From having talked to friends who know my game I am sure I'd love Pine Valley.  INoordwijkse is a bit repetitive.  It asks the same question time and time again.  It doesn't give the mid-handicapper a way to play it.  The penalty for a missed shot is too often a lost or unplayable ball.   Taking out ALL the trees would undoubtedly help, as would allowing more greens to be hit and held in a way other than a high flying soft landing aerial shot.  Noordwijkse is, as you proudly claim, damn difficult.  What it is short of, which all truly great courses have, is lots of challenging AND fun shots.  There are probably a hundred ways whatever money will be spent lengthening the 18th could be better spent to improve the course.

[David Davis]

John,

Apologies, didn't go back through and read all the comments just wrote your guys names all down. I agree with your comments by the way 100% and I've posted about that fact before. Guys at the club still seem to have mastered running it up so they think I'm crazy saying it's needs to be firmer in order to run it up consistently.

I was more aiming at the severe drop off to the left of the 18th with this post. I stand corrected, thanks for pointing that out. Disagree though with you calling yourself a lesser player. You just need a couple rounds to get use to the course.

Although if your like me you need a couple 100 and still can't seem to figure it out. But working on it. I think the course is indeed really tough, although I don't mind that. What I also don't like is losing balls, no more than the next guy. So in the past I think you would find that when I commented and even complained it was not this year but mainly last year in the summer when a missed fairway even by an inch resulted in a lost ball or a hack out. I found that ridiculous and it made an already very tough course impossible unless you were straight as an arrow, which is tough in high winds.

So I like tough courses, but I like easier fun courses too and I'd play at a crap local muni if that was the option and have done that a lot. Even one in NL with freeways running through it. No problem.

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