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Pete_Pittock

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Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #150 on: November 19, 2013, 05:29:59 PM »
Portland, Oregon

Waverley
Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow
Royal Oaks
Columbia Edgewater
Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek)
Portland GC
Riverside
Willamette Valley
Langdon Farms
Reserve Vineyards (North)

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #151 on: November 19, 2013, 05:48:06 PM »
Portland, Oregon

Waverley
Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow
Royal Oaks
Columbia Edgewater
Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek)
Portland GC
Riverside
Willamette Valley
Langdon Farms
Reserve Vineyards (North)

No Eastmoreland?

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #152 on: November 19, 2013, 06:01:15 PM »
Portland, Oregon

Waverley
Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow
Royal Oaks
Columbia Edgewater
Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek)
Portland GC
Riverside
Willamette Valley
Langdon Farms
Reserve Vineyards (North)

No Eastmoreland?

Conditioning - If it was better it would be #7.   Did you consider Home Course on your list?

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #153 on: November 19, 2013, 06:05:38 PM »
Portland, Oregon

Waverley
Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow
Royal Oaks
Columbia Edgewater
Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek)
Portland GC
Riverside
Willamette Valley
Langdon Farms
Reserve Vineyards (North)

No Eastmoreland?

Conditioning - If it was better it would be #7.   Did you consider Home Course on your list?

I did. I have only played it twice and once was with Garland so I have tried to block it out of my memory.. ;)

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #154 on: November 20, 2013, 10:29:19 AM »
For my Twin Cities friends who were anxiously awaiting my ballot.

I'm not including Keller on here because I want to see it with my own eyes before including it.

1. WBYC
2. Interlachen
3. Minikahda
4. Oak Ridge
5. Hazeltine
6. Windsong
7. Golden Valley
8. Woodhill
9. Midland Hills (homer pick)
10. Wayzata

Others receiving consideration: Somerset, T&C, Minneapolis, StoneRidge, Spring Hill


I've never played Wayzata, and never had any real desire to. If you rank it ahead of Somerset, MGC, T&C and Spring Hill, I've got to see it.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #155 on: November 20, 2013, 10:33:58 AM »
Sean

    You need to get a grip man.  There are no fast hard rules here.  In your city, well if two cities are close by or Chicago for example it can be 60 miles from one top track to another.  Job is to inform someone of the great tracks in your city and including ones less than 60 miles is a bonus.  Mud Hens/Tigers are a team.  Windsor is divided by the Detroit River!  Luckily great bands broke hard fast rules and expanded the boundaries of music, which isn't allowed under Sean's Golfocracy.  Do great chef's deviate from the recipe (the directions)?  Sean you weren't a tattle tale in elementary school were you?

Ben  

Hi Ben.

I think you are missing some of the regional flavor we have in SE Michigan. SE MI in itself is a large area and has a lot to offer in term of quality golf but the rivalry between Michigan and Ohio is legendary and it's not just about college football. There was a border dispute at one time involving Toledo and it's well know that Ohio law enforcement has targeted cars with Michigan plates. That said, I'd love to play Inverness. There is no such rivalry with Windsor but it is another country and many don't want to deal with the border crossing or don't have a passport.

I'm glad to hear that Rosemont has had a restoration. I played there a few times 10 or so years ago and you could tell that it had great bones.

Brent Hutto

Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #156 on: November 20, 2013, 10:49:05 AM »
There's none I'd rather play than the one at my club and I'd imagine a fair number of non-members might be inclined to agree. There are other courses of similar "quality" whatever that means. But none of them would be "better" plus mine happens to suit my game perfectly.

Someone ought to start a thread asking "How far would you have to drive to play a course you like better than your home course?". For those of us lucky to play regularly at our favorite nearby course, that would be an interesting side question.

For me it would probably be about 55 miles to Palmetto Golf Club. That's the closest course I can think of that I'd choose over my own club on any given day (except for the hour-plus drive).

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #157 on: November 20, 2013, 10:59:37 AM »
There's none I'd rather play than the one at my club and I'd imagine a fair number of non-members might be inclined to agree. There are other courses of similar "quality" whatever that means. But none of them would be "better" plus mine happens to suit my game perfectly.

Someone ought to start a thread asking "How far would you have to drive to play a course you like better than your home course?". For those of us lucky to play regularly at our favorite nearby course, that would be an interesting side question.

For me it would probably be about 55 miles to Palmetto Golf Club. That's the closest course I can think of that I'd choose over my own club on any given day (except for the hour-plus drive).

8 miles. But it's not a strong preference. I really like my home course, and there aren't many times I wish I were at WBYC instead of Stillwater CC.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #158 on: November 20, 2013, 11:47:38 AM »
Rochester, NY (courses that are members of the Rochester District Golf ASsociation):

Stafford CC (In response to question as to whether Stafford should be ranked ahead of Cherry Hill in Ron's Buffalo listing, I would give a resounding yes.  It's routing and terrain are vastly superior; but, lacking in the greens surfaces department.  For sake of transperancy, I have been a member of Stafford CC for 39 seasons, serving as Green Chairman in charge of developing and implementing golf course long range master plan.)


Ron--Actually, there were 3 holes at Orchard Park that were removed by the Aults in 1993-94, the par-3 6th, par 4s 17 and 18, and replaced with the abominations that Ian is trying to improve.


I'll add my "independent" perspective and concur that Stafford is much better that Cherry Hill, for the reasons you stated.  The Par 5s at Stafford are far superior to their counterparts at Cherry Hill.  I'm sure I am somewhat biased, in that relatively flat courses are significantly handicapped in their ability to inspire me.  

Can you tell me how many of the current greens at Stafford are the originals built by Travis?  Obviously, some have been changed, simply by comparing greens like the 11th to the rest of the course.  The 11th may be one of the best I have seen (not having been to the UK), and bore much greater resemblance to Travis' work at Country Club of Troy.



As for Orchard Park, I'm hoping Ian can work some magic there.  Real pity what they did to 16/17 for the sake of a driving range.

I played a Charity Event at OPCC in September, and the crews were tearing up some sections.  I discovered Ian's involvement by talking with some of the crew, although I suspected it based on his other local Travis restoration work at Cherry Hill & Lookout Point.  The guys in my group were mocking my thrilled reactions every time I heard a chainsaw rev up or limbs hitting the ground.

I don't know if there's anything Ian can do to save the abomination (read "clusterf#@k") that is the new 5th hole (the "signature" Par 5).  I couldn't contain myself on the last visit, proclaiming, "Other than the fact that you have no clue where the drive-zone is from the tee, the ideal tee shot is an accidental toe-slice, it bears no resemblance to rest of the course, it's flat-as-a pancake with ridiculously artificial mounding, and perpetually covered in goose-sh!t, it's a fine hole."

The change is relatively recent, so there's probably some members still around who approved that hole when it was proposed.  Ian must have bite-marks on his tongue from people asking him what he thinks of that hole.

Doug Bolls

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #159 on: November 21, 2013, 12:13:45 AM »
So, I'll play a little here.  A couple of years ago Golf Digest published a list of the "Top 20 Cities for Golf" - if you don't remember the article, you may be surprised at the #1 city.  Contrary to popular opinion, it wasn't Philly or Pinehurst or Chicago or somewhere in Florida - it was Dallas-Fort Worth.  There are not a lot of Great Courses in the DFW area (no Pine Valleys or Marions or Cypress Points), but I would suggest that there are quite a few Very Good Golf Courses here.  I play 2-3 times a week and don't play the same course twice in 2 months.  My latest handicap is made up of 20 different courses.
Here goes with the DFW courses I think you would enjoy:

Cowboys Golf Club:  A Jeff Brauer design that took full advantage of the landscape.  I especially like the way he routed the course to maximize the hills.  A solid test of your game.  And, talk about VALUE, the greens fee includes all the food and beverages you can consume.  Come out for breakfast, play the course with a stop at the halfway house for lunch, and come into the clubhouse for dinner - all included.

The Tribute:  Tripp Davis put together a very good representation of the most famous holes in Scotland/Ireland.  The postage stamp plays so close to the lake, you would thing you were in Troon.

Tennison Highlands:  A sister course to Tennison Park Glen where Lee Travino used to hang out.  DA Weibring redid it a few years ago - lots of elevation changes and wooded.  Part of Dallas City Munis.

Texas Star:  A very good Keith Foster design.  

Sky Creek Ranch:  A RTJ design - I would put the first 5-6 holes on this course up against almost anything you could bring.  A group of holes that demand accuracy off the tee and 2nd shots into precise landing areas. Not a cheap hole out here.

Sherrill Park #1 & 2:  Two of my favorite golf courses (D.A. Weibring) - water in play on quite a few holes.  Both of these courses take accurate shots off the tee to score well.  

Old American:  Justin Leonard and Tripp Davis put together this tribute to the "old masters".  I have enjoyed my rounds there, but maybe I'm too ignorant in architectural subtleties to fully appreciate what's going on there.  

Tierra Verde:  I played there today - it's a course with challenging holes from 1-18.  My playing partners had some trouble hitting in the fairway - lost a few balls and a few strokes.  Well in the top 10 of DFW public courses.

Golf Club of Dallas:  This is the last course Perry Maxwell designed.  I'm not sure how much of it is actual Maxwell, but the back nine has some very interesting holey that I hope are Maxwells.  OK landing areas, small greens.  A player friendly trip to the past.

Canyon West:  This is a family designed/owned course about 50 miles west of DFW.  Very interesting holes and routing - no out and back here.  I enjoy the ABSOLUTE QUIET out here on this course.  

In addition to the above courses, Jeff Brauer has contributed significantly to our golfing experience here in the DFW area.  I have enjoyed playing the following courses he designed and I think you would enjoy them too:
Indian Creek - Creek
Cross Timbers (I hate #10!!, but I love # 17)
Trails of Frisco
Ridgeview Ranch
Westridge
Tangle Ridge - should have been in my top 10





Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #160 on: November 21, 2013, 01:04:03 AM »
Metro Detroit Top 10-

Franklin Hills
Oakland Hills South
Indianwood Old
CC of Detroit
Western Golf and CC
Grosse Ile CC
Red Run
Oakland Hills North
Detroit Golf Club
Plum Hollow

** I have not played Orchard Lake yet since renovation.  Id guess somewhere 2-4 based on pics Ive seen and what was there before.


Chattanooga, TN Top 5 (just moved 6 months ago) -

Lookout Mtn
Sequatchie Valley
Honors Course
Black Creek
Chattanooga CC




Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #161 on: November 21, 2013, 01:10:20 AM »
BTW I did not include Ann Arbor in Metro Detroit

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #162 on: November 21, 2013, 02:00:42 AM »
Metro Detroit Top 10-

Franklin Hills
Oakland Hills South
Indianwood Old
CC of Detroit
Western Golf and CC
Grosse Ile CC
Red Run
Oakland Hills North
Detroit Golf Club
Plum Hollow

** I have not played Orchard Lake yet since renovation.  Id guess somewhere 2-4 based on pics Ive seen and what was there before.

You don't reckon Shepherd's Hollow is in the mix somewhere?  I think it is better than at least three on the list.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #163 on: November 21, 2013, 03:55:40 AM »

Chattanooga, TN Top 5 (just moved 6 months ago) -

Lookout Mtn
Sequatchie Valley
Honors Course
Black Creek
Chattanooga CC


Ari - in that order? You just made Rob Collins very, very happy!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #164 on: November 21, 2013, 11:57:58 AM »
Metro Detroit Top 10-

Franklin Hills
Oakland Hills South
Indianwood Old
CC of Detroit
Western Golf and CC
Grosse Ile CC
Red Run
Oakland Hills North
Detroit Golf Club
Plum Hollow

** I have not played Orchard Lake yet since renovation.  Id guess somewhere 2-4 based on pics Ive seen and what was there before.

You don't reckon Shepherd's Hollow is in the mix somewhere?  I think it is better than at least three on the list.

Ciao

No I would definitely not put Shepherd's Hollow in the mix.  I am not a big fan of SH and definitely dont think its top 10 in the area.

Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #165 on: November 21, 2013, 12:00:48 PM »

Chattanooga, TN Top 5 (just moved 6 months ago) -

Lookout Mtn
Sequatchie Valley
Honors Course
Black Creek
Chattanooga CC


Ari - in that order? You just made Rob Collins very, very happy!

Yes in that order.  I think Sequatchie is THAT good and I think Honors is a bit over rated.  If Sequatchie were 18 holes and the other 9 was the same quality as what is there it would easily be #1 in the area imo as much as I love LM.  

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #166 on: November 21, 2013, 12:09:36 PM »

Chattanooga, TN Top 5 (just moved 6 months ago) -

Lookout Mtn
Sequatchie Valley
Honors Course
Black Creek
Chattanooga CC


Ari - in that order? You just made Rob Collins very, very happy!

Yes in that order.  I think Sequatchie is THAT good and I think Honors is a bit over rated.  If Sequatchie were 18 holes and the other 9 was the same quality as what is there it would easily be #1 in the area imo as much as I love LM.  

I agree with you, Ari, re: SV. The greatness of this course is apparent the moment you set foot on the property. The massive kick plate of the redan at the 9th literally smacks you in the face as you venture to the first tee. Amazing! A triumph in golf design and a course that deserves all the accolades it receives.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #167 on: November 21, 2013, 12:09:42 PM »
Metro Detroit Top 10-

Franklin Hills
Oakland Hills South
Indianwood Old
CC of Detroit
Western Golf and CC
Grosse Ile CC
Red Run
Oakland Hills North
Detroit Golf Club
Plum Hollow

** I have not played Orchard Lake yet since renovation.  Id guess somewhere 2-4 based on pics Ive seen and what was there before.

You don't reckon Shepherd's Hollow is in the mix somewhere?  I think it is better than at least three on the list.

Ciao

No I would definitely not put Shepherd's Hollow in the mix.  I am not a big fan of SH and definitely dont think its top 10 in the area.

Ari

I can understand not being a fan of SH, I'm not.  But is it better than some of those you listed?  Say Red Run, Western and maybe even Plum Hollow. I think Birmingham is better than those three and SH.  I only mentioned SH because it is public.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rob Collins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #168 on: November 21, 2013, 12:21:53 PM »

Cheers guys! Glad y'all liked it so much.

Chattanooga, TN Top 5 (just moved 6 months ago) -

Lookout Mtn
Sequatchie Valley
Honors Course
Black Creek
Chattanooga CC


Ari - in that order? You just made Rob Collins very, very happy!

Yes in that order.  I think Sequatchie is THAT good and I think Honors is a bit over rated.  If Sequatchie were 18 holes and the other 9 was the same quality as what is there it would easily be #1 in the area imo as much as I love LM.  

I agree with you, Ari, re: SV. The greatness of this course is apparent the moment you set foot on the property. The massive kick plate of the redan at the 9th literally smacks you in the face as you venture to the first tee. Amazing! A triumph in golf design and a course that deserves all the accolades it receives.
Rob Collins

www.kingcollinsgolf.com
@kingcollinsgolf on Twitter
@kingcollinsgolf on Instagram

Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #169 on: November 21, 2013, 12:46:37 PM »
Metro Detroit Top 10-

Franklin Hills
Oakland Hills South
Indianwood Old
CC of Detroit
Western Golf and CC
Grosse Ile CC
Red Run
Oakland Hills North
Detroit Golf Club
Plum Hollow

** I have not played Orchard Lake yet since renovation.  Id guess somewhere 2-4 based on pics Ive seen and what was there before.

You don't reckon Shepherd's Hollow is in the mix somewhere?  I think it is better than at least three on the list.

Ciao

No I would definitely not put Shepherd's Hollow in the mix.  I am not a big fan of SH and definitely dont think its top 10 in the area.

Ari

I can understand not being a fan of SH, I'm not.  But is it better than some of those you listed?  Say Red Run, Western and maybe even Plum Hollow. I think Birmingham is better than those three and SH.  I only mentioned SH because it is public.

Ciao

I have not played Birmingham for some reason.  Not sure why as my parents live a mile away from the course and I maybe live 10 min.  I think Western is alot better than SH I think Western is way under rated.  With a little tree clearing and a little other work I think Western would easily be top 5 in the city.  Maybe better than that.  It is a fantastic and unique piece of land.  I dont understand why it doesnt get more love.  I also really like most of the holes at Red Run (other than the one next to the road) and think PH is definitely a step above SH.  Definitely agree that the area is lacking for good public tracks.    

BCowan

Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #170 on: November 21, 2013, 12:58:41 PM »
Toledo
Inverness
Sylvania
Highland Meadows

Toledo CC (some cool holes and awful ones)
Riverby (public)
Belmont (like playing in florida and most greens slope back to front)
Ottawa Park (I think the 3rd oldest public course west of New York) must play for sentimental reasons
Valleywood
Maumee Bay
The Legacy
White Pines

« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 11:02:40 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Julian Wise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #171 on: November 21, 2013, 01:06:36 PM »
Westchester, NY Top 10 Courses

Limiting it to Westchester courses (keep in mind Garden City GC is only 25 miles to southeast and Country Club of Fairfield is only 25 miles to the north), my order would be:

1.  Quaker Ridge
2.  Winged Foot West
3.  Sleepy Hollow
4.  Winged Foot East
5.  Century
6.  Hudson National
7.  Metropolis
8.  Wykagyl
9.  Fenway
10. Too close to call betweeen a few courses

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #172 on: November 21, 2013, 01:10:43 PM »
Well BCowan, you sure are unique.  Not only is Toledo in your world of Detroit, but Western is the best track in the metro area - thats a twofer worth remembering  :D.

Ari

When I last saw Western it was a mess of foliage and damp - overwatered.  Red Run doesn't do much for me, but its a decent enough course. Plum Hollow, again, good course, but not one I would suggest folks see.  I haven't seen any of these in quite some time, but they are not high on my Detroit Bucket List.  Mind you, surprises come to those who gamble. I was very surprised by Birmingham last year.  Its not great, but it is good and I think it will get better - I would definitely return.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCowan

Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #173 on: November 21, 2013, 01:19:53 PM »
I meant to say Western was one of metro D's finest.  Yes, someone with independent thought is great!  If Western was restored by notable architect (prichard) it could be top 3, it has the bones.  Yes, putting two Toledo courses in and noting them is a sin, lol.  Including Western's lack of drainage and conditioning as a factor in rating is not fair to compare or is something wise people don't do.  You take design in acct, not green committee's lack of common sense in course set up.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 01:21:52 PM by BCowan »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best courses in your city
« Reply #174 on: November 21, 2013, 01:40:16 PM »
Including Western's lack of drainage and conditioning as a factor in rating is not fair to compare or is something wise people don't do.  You take design in acct, not green committee's lack of common sense in course set up.

This is an interesting PoV which may need its own thread.  I definitely take how a course is presented into a "rating".  Be that trees, rough, poor drainage etc, if I think the course should be better presented then I will definitely knock a rating down.  It may not be a big knock unless I know the problems are long standing, but combined with a design which I think is not stellar anyway, it could mean the course gets the axe in my eyes. I only have so much time and money so I try not to waste it on courses that could be .... unless the course is cheap enough and convenient enough.  I have driven well past quite servicable designs to other courses because of presentation issues; mainly trees, drainage and rough.  Life is too short to work on the principles of coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing