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Tim Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« on: November 11, 2013, 11:42:22 PM »
Hi guys,
I spent this past weekend going on some college tours with my older brother. The colleges that we visited were colleges that he is interested in, but it got me wondering about my college decision. I made the decision a while ago that I was going to do whatever it takes to  try to get into the golf course architecture business, and frankly I don't really want to hear about how difficult it is to get into the business and all that. I understand that it is difficult, but I also know that there would be absolutely no way I would ever be able to live with my self if I didn't give golf course architecture a shot. I did a couple searches to try to find some similar threads, and I found some useful things but I have some more specific questions that I want to ask. What I am basically looking for is suggestions on what to do for college, after college, and even things that I could be doing right know.

On the college side of things, I would assume that most of you would suggest majoring in landscape architecture. I would be a long shot for Cornell, unless I boost my GPA a good amount in the next couple years, and put out some stellar ACT scores. Other than that I know that penn state, and Ohio state have pretty good landscape architecture schools. Those are the schools that I can come up with off the top of my head, but I would definitely be looking for suggestions on other places to look at. I am also seriously, seriously considering looking at a place like the university of Edinburg. It would be a pretty huge step to do something like going overseas, but like I said before I would literally do anything to get in the business. There are a couple problems with that option though considering that my parents would be extremely against me going to college overseas, but the way I look at it 4 years studying the courses of the UK is a lot better than 1 year on a exchange program. Another thing is that I have no idea how difficult it would be to be accepted at a place like University of Edinburg.

Like I said before I am basically looking for advice on where to go from this point forward, in trying to get into the business. Some specific questions that I have are...
1. Would it be worth it to go to college in the UK?
2. In the modern business is it more important to have studied the great courses, or to have experience in the construction process?
3. What are some things that I could be doing right now to improve my chances later on?
4. When, if at all, should I try to do some sort of internship?

Thanks in advance

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 12:39:45 AM »
To answer your 4 questions:

1.  It might actually be cheaper to attend college in the UK than the US, if you can get into the schools over there ... more Americans are starting to do that, so they are becoming much more selective.  I've had a couple of interns who went to the University of St. Andrews for a year on an exchange program, and they got a ton out of it, but you'd have to be a very good student to get the opportunity.

2.  Both, but experience in the construction process is of much more use in finding employment.

3.  You've got to find a way to stand out from all the other people who want to do the same thing.  If I could tell you how, then they would all do it, too.

4.  As soon as you can, though it will probably take a couple of years of pestering people.

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 01:44:03 AM »
Hi

Can't help you in terms of getting into the golf architecture industry but I did go to Edinburgh university (Economics) and can confirm your parents would have nothing to worry about if you were to attend.  It is a really great town and I seem to remember the crime stats were very low for the UK.  

I had a couple of friends who attended from overseas (outside the EU) and I think the fee's they paid for a humanities course were around £10K a year.  But that was several years ago.

If you need any information or have any questions about Edinburgh just let me know.


Jim Nugent

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Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 02:38:56 AM »
Question for Tom Doak and the other architects: do you feel it's necessary for a guy like Tim to go to university?  Could he break into the industry and gain the experience/knowledge he needs by working for a golf architecture firm, without a university diploma? 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 09:06:02 AM »
Tim,

I recall those days in my youth. The first test of whether you are qualified to be a gca is to see if you can withstand the barrage of well meaning advice to not go in the profession.  Sounds like you are off to a good start, but the pressure will continue!

I took the traditional US landscape architect degree path, couldn't get any summer or year long internships with architects, but did work golf maintenance and landscape construction and design (for Brickman, just sold yesterday to some big Wall St firm, but I was there when it was a small, cutesy office environment and Ted Brickman was still alive and occasionally seen around the office).  To supplement my LA courses, I did a senior thesis on golf design with a friendly professor, and also took engineering classes in surveying and drainage, not to mention some business writing and marketing classes to round out my edumacation.

Feel free to contact me.  At the very least, I am optimistic about your chances, knowing that everyone told me the golf architecture business was dead (in 1977 it wasn't much different than today's economy) and that I wasn't worth a damn, neither was my whole generation, but we/I muddled through somehow.  I just met a young man I had similarly positively counseled and he is at least on the fringes of the biz and grateful he wasn't talked out of it.


1. Would it be worth it to go to college in the UK?

It would be a great life experience, but I don't know if you magically absorb any of the modern construction techniques there.  Could go either way on that one, but I considered it, and stayed in the US because U of Illinois had a good LA program at that time.  (And, because my older brother had exhausted my parents patience (and savings) with out of state college tuition paid for a drug fueled party year......)

(Side note: Really check into the programs for both golf friendly and current faculty.  Professors change all the time and while its hard to know which unknown professor might touch your life, there may be a school with a glowing rep that has recently had a lot of turnover in faculty, which might make the department a mess.  Also, check the emphasis in the program, as you want one with nuts and bolts, or traditional emphasis.  Some programs are aimed at environmentalism, or urban planning, etc. and you might not get all that you need.)

2. In the modern business is it more important to have studied the great courses, or to have experience in the construction process?

Probably construction experience.  The study of great golf courses is a lifetime endeavor, and no one would expect you to be anywhere but the start of that journey.  It will help if you showed some gumption to go see at least a few of the great ones.  Also,  don't discount those hard to find design internships.  Some guys go the construction side and never get back on the design side, as they get slotted.  

Also, any good gca or landscape architect will probably know within three months if you have the overall creativity to stick in the design biz.  Not pleasant to contemplate, but there are degreed landscape architects who can't design their way out of a paper bag.  Despite desire, if you don't really have a design personality, you won't be a great designer.

3. What are some things that I could be doing right now to improve my chances later on?

Study up on architects you might want to work for.  Nothing improves your chances in an interview than presenting yourself as someone who really knows their work and wants to work for them.  Flattery will get you everywhere.  If you go in to 100 offices where it would be "just a job" to you, they will sense it.  

At the same time, be open minded about who might teach you the most.  While my mentors (Killian and Nugent) weren't well known, they were very good at what they did and great teacher of the technical side.  You might get a better experience there than with a better known firm who slots you into just one phase of a bigger production house.

4. When, if at all, should I try to do some sort of internship?

Just keep calling and knocking on doors.  Most job openings in gca are a matter of timing....and persistence.  I called on K and N at age 14, and kept bugging them.  When I finally graduated with honors at  U of I, and had done all the things they told me to do, they felt obligated to hire me.   As to persistence, I might have no work this week and next week I might have five projects.  I can recall hiring a guy a week after another qualified candidate came through the office, much to the first's dismay.  Feast or famine, just the way it is.  

So, TD is right, don't feel bad about pestering those who you think you might want to work for.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 09:08:51 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 10:34:01 AM »
Tim - you've already gotten excellent and generous answers from people who know, so I felt it okay to throw in my two cents (from someone not involved at all in gca, but who has watched myself and others building/finding careers in othere creative professions):

1. Dig deep to find the honest answer for yourself, take your time and really think it through, but decide as early and as clearly as you can: Do you want to be in the "golf architecture business" or do you want to be an "architect"?  The one doesn't necessarily lead to the other, and various industries are filled with 2nd and 3rd and 4th in commands who complain under their breaths about how the boss is doing things and about how they would do things differently if they got the chance, but who never end up taking that chance or (more accurately) come to the place where they are willing to pay the price for that chance. In short, ask yourself: what is my deepest intention and goal, and then start acting and making decisions that are in line with that goal.

2. And once your intention is clear, ask yourself this question: If despite your decisions/intentions and your very best efforts, someone could tell and predict for you (now) that you'd have a long and decent career/employment in the "business" but would never become an "architect", would you still want to be in the business?

No "wrong" answers here, nothing to feel good/bad about in any event, i.e. whether you decide you'd be happy with being in the business or only happy being an architect -- the important thing is grappling honestly with the choice and the intention. And then seeing yourself as that which you wish to be, and acting accordingly.

Peter

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 11:22:22 AM »
Tim: I attended and graduated from Cook College - Rutgers University with my LA Degree.  Rutgers may not stress GC design as much as others but I distinctly remember working on GC projects and going over to the RU course (over by the football stadium) to work on taking pix and doing some field research for projects.

Landscape Construction experience when in school is key - learning how to build things really helps.  Landscape construction jobs in the warmer months are fairly easy to find. You grade things out, build decks/walls/patios, etc.  All of this helps when designing tees, greens, practice areas etc.  Grasping the principals grading and drainage will make design school much easier - it's funny how often the fundamental rule of grading & drainage - "water will not run uphill" - is put to the test!! Lanscape construction is hot & hard but you work outside all summer and will really appreciate going back to school in September.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 11:50:48 AM »
I would say learn as many of these skills as you can; 1- knowledge of growing, maintaining grasses, a good start is reading Beards book.
2- Learn how to drive an excavator or blade, so you can shape, if you are a good shaper you will get work.3- Learn to speak Chinese, Korean, Russian, Bulgarian. Thats where the action is going to be.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 12:11:20 PM »
Peter,

LOL on the guys grumbling under their breath. It has happened in every office I worked in, including my own.

This might be a separate topic, of why did any gca in the biz go on their own, but I recall getting really upset that we never used grass bunkers or chocolate drop mounds.  I placed one on the front right of a first green near the end of my KN career and despite discussions upon discussions, they saw it in the field and said "we don't do that."  

I spent a half a year with just Killian after they split up, redesigning the Desert Rose course in Las Vegas for him.  On the then 15th green (think the nines have flipped) I put a grass bunker behind the green, and the normal green backing mounds beyond that.  On the tee, he loved it.  The client loved it.  It gave real depth and a different look.  Then, we got up there close, and he insisted that the bunker be taken out and mound moved up to the green, again because "that's the way we do it."

The client became my first client on my own.....and to this day, I fear I will become as stereotyped as many gca's before me have gotten.  So, there is getting in the biz, and staying in the biz, and then there is staying FRESH in the biz!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 12:12:24 PM »

2. And once your intention is clear, ask yourself this question: If despite your decisions/intentions and your very best efforts, someone could tell and predict for you (now) that you'd have a long and decent career/employment in the "business" but would never become an "architect", would you still want to be in the business?

No "wrong" answers here, nothing to feel good/bad about in any event, i.e. whether you decide you'd be happy with being in the business or only happy being an architect -- the important thing is grappling honestly with the choice and the intention. And then seeing yourself as that which you wish to be, and acting accordingly.

Peter


This is the best advice you will ever get.  The odds of grand success are small, the real key is whether you really love THE WORK.  That's why it is important to get out there and find out before you've spent $100,000 on your education.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2013, 12:14:53 PM »
With regards to St. Andrews U:  A close friend's daughter is a senior there now.  Although it is more competitive than it used to be to gain entrance it's still easier than a comparable school here which has become even more competitive.  It's also less expensive than most top private schools on this side of the pond, travel costs notwithstanding.  One caveat: be aware that they adhere strictly to the U.K. composition methodology over there for writing.  This apparently takes some getting used to for U.S. students and may involve a heavier workload freshman year.  Perhaps you could write a thesis on the changes being wrought at TOC...

P.S. Tom, $100,000?  You can't even go in state to many schools and pull that off these days after room & board, books etc....
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 12:35:48 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2013, 12:53:16 PM »
Can't really help you on the architecture business, but if you want to get into The University of Edinburgh,
you might want learn how to spell "Edinburgh"  ;) ;) (pronouncing it properly is another kettle of fish ;))
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2013, 02:25:46 PM »

P.S. Tom, $100,000?  You can't even go in state to many schools and pull that off these days after room & board, books etc....

Jud,

I've got some idea of college costs, with my son at Grand Valley and a daughter at Michigan Tech.  I'm well aware you can spend far more than 100 grand at some schools today (though I wasn't counting room and board as "education".  I will say that in my professional opinion, spending more than $100,000 to get a landscape architecture degree would not be a wise investment for a future golf architect.  Luckily, most LA programs are at big state schools where the tuition is not as high as for the private colleges in the northeast (or my own alma mater).

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2013, 03:02:04 PM »
Best advise you'll ever get is not to get into a dying declining business. History is full of examples: Polaroid, kayak, Sears, Montgomery wards, blockbuster,

Lots of long term opportunities out there for engineers, computer, china , math, language arts, hedge funds, silicon vallet, etc. Go where the action is
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2013, 03:07:52 PM »
Best advise you'll ever get is not to get into a dying declining business. History is full of examples: Polaroid, kayak, Sears, Montgomery wards, blockbuster,

Lots of long term opportunities out there for engineers, computer, china , math, language arts, hedge funds, silicon vallet, etc. Go where the action is

best advice I can give is follow your passion.
If you're passionate and perseverant, someone will recognize that and opportunities will come your way-whether in your original field or not-and you'll have no regrets.

plenty of miserable engineers and hedgefund wizards
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2013, 04:55:42 PM »
Tim,
I'm still not sure the "golf architecture business" has ever been more than a fabricated business consisting of a huge amount of hype.  NOW...what I'm talking about is the hand waving and extensive plans part of it.  70 page sets of plans were mainly there to justify fees and if one looked closely at some of the signatures they would take a 200 scale drawing and then jump it up to 50 scale so they could show more pages etc.  Many went to extremes to show how critical it was to have an architect checking on the project and many efforts were made to portray him as the "professional" over the builder etc.  I THINK WE ARE NOW PAST THAT TYPE OF ARCHITECT....  Study how Pete Dye did it or watch the guys that are building today with their own crews.  My advice would be to learn how to build and know the construction fundamentals of getting it done.  Then study the courses you wish to study and sell your ability to get it built to the client.   Now others will disagree but this is my thoughts on the future of this business...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2013, 05:05:21 PM »
Tim,

Golf architecture has never been part of my career, but from a very young age (maybe about 2-3 years old!) it has certainly been a love of mine.

Along the way  I have fortunate to meet many of the folks that have worked for Tom Doak. One reality check: the work is just that......work.

Doesn't mean it isn't fun work, but it is work, not just the glamour of opening day.

Like Peter has suggested, you have a have a passion for that work.
Tim Weiman

Tim Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2013, 05:21:37 PM »
To answer your 4 questions:

1.  It might actually be cheaper to attend college in the UK than the US, if you can get into the schools over there ... more Americans are starting to do that, so they are becoming much more selective.  I've had a couple of interns who went to the University of St. Andrews for a year on an exchange program, and they got a ton out of it, but you'd have to be a very good student to get the opportunity.

2.  Both, but experience in the construction process is of much more use in finding employment.

3.  You've got to find a way to stand out from all the other people who want to do the same thing.  If I could tell you how, then they would all do it, too.

4.  As soon as you can, though it will probably take a couple of years of pestering people.

I thought about the University of St. Andrews, and determined that I would have a decent shot to get in there, but I didn't think that it had a landscape architecture program. If there are some other majors that the school offers which would be of aid for a job in golf course architecture, then it could definitely be a possibility. I am beginning to think that I am going to have to think a little bit outside of the box.

Pertaining to the questions about whether or not I would be content just working in the business, even if not as an "architect", I would probably have to get my hands dirty a little bit to give a definitive answer. From working on a golf course this summer, I can probably tell you that I would rather work that job for the rest of my life, than work a job that doesn't have anything to do with golf. I have also considered pursuing a career as a superintendent, but have decided to go for golf course architecture instead. Like I said before I would probably have to gain some experience in a job that is more specific to golf course architecture to know if I would be happy just being in the business somehow... even though I can't possibly imagine me not enjoying anything that has to do with golf course architecture.

and Jeff, my phone auto corrected the spelling to "Edinburg" so I just assumed that was the correct spelling. Good to know it wasn't though.    

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2013, 05:29:17 PM »
There is no LA program at St Andrews.  Not sure where in Scotland they have one.

Glad you did not have to listen to Tom Fazio talk about the future of the business last night in Pinehurst.  He sounded like Cary :(

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2013, 05:54:00 PM »
To answer your 4 questions:

I thought about the University of St. Andrews, and determined that I would have a decent shot to get in there, but I didn't think that it had a landscape architecture program. If there are some other majors that the school offers which would be of aid for a job in golf course architecture, then it could definitely be a possibility. I am beginning to think that I am going to have to think a little bit outside of the box.


I spent a semester abroad at the University of St Andrews studying business management, so I can't speak to the majors and those programs, but I can tell you that as a student, you get a really sweet deal on a yearly pass on all of the courses.  Plus, you have much easier access to study the great links courses over there--which is mostly what I did as the course structure was much more lax than college in the states.  So while you might not get the best course work, you might get the best golf experiences in a span of a few years.  Maybe even try to caddy at the Old Course...

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2013, 06:11:32 PM »
There is no LA program at St Andrews.  Not sure where in Scotland they have one.

Glad you did not have to listen to Tom Fazio talk about the future of the business last night in Pinehurst.  He sounded like Cary :(
He is probably right though, the whole business is shrinking and in that climate there is not much room for newbies to get work, newbies do well when there is a glut of work. If you go East there will be work, if you can speak Chinese and operate a machine you will be of value to someone and perhaps from there doors will open.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2013, 06:33:38 PM »
Good luck Tim
How old are you?

If your priority is golf course design, I would not go to college.
I would go to work.

I spent the last 10 days with a young designer/builder
He has a L.A. degree
He has worked at some very good places and on projects (5 years of experience)
He is talented and hard working
He was able to design some of the details and was given opportunities to share his opinions
He spent half of his time shoveling gravel and laying sod

I could care less about his L.A. degree, and his recollections were spending most of his time on irrelevant studies
The best thing about his degree seemed to be the internships at great locations

You don't have to go to college to get an internship
Good luck
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tim Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2013, 06:46:52 PM »
Good luck Tim
How old are you?

If your priority is golf course design, I would not go to college.
I would go to work.

I spent the last 10 days with a young designer/builder
He has a L.A. degree
He has worked at some very good places and on projects (5 years of experience)
He is talented and hard working
He was able to design some of the details and was given opportunities to share his opinions
He spent half of his time shoveling gravel and laying sod

I could care less about his L.A. degree, and his recollections were spending most of his time on irrelevant studies
The best thing about his degree seemed to be the internships at great locations

You don't have to go to college to get an internship
Good luck

Sorry, I should have mentioned my age in my initial post. I am 16, a junior in high school, from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I would definitely be willing to just go to work right after high school, but the real problem would be convincing my parents. I can't even imagine how mad they would be if I told them I didn't want to go to college. If I could ever convince my parents, and make sure that this is what I want to do with my life, even if I don't get very high up in the food chain, then I would be all for it. Who needs school anyway.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2013, 07:22:25 PM »
Good luck Tim
How old are you?

If your priority is golf course design, I would not go to college.
I would go to work.

I spent the last 10 days with a young designer/builder
He has a L.A. degree
He has worked at some very good places and on projects (5 years of experience)
He is talented and hard working
He was able to design some of the details and was given opportunities to share his opinions
He spent half of his time shoveling gravel and laying sod

I could care less about his L.A. degree, and his recollections were spending most of his time on irrelevant studies
The best thing about his degree seemed to be the internships at great locations

You don't have to go to college to get an internship
Good luck

Sorry, I should have mentioned my age in my initial post. I am 16, a junior in high school, from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I would definitely be willing to just go to work right after high school, but the real problem would be convincing my parents. I can't even imagine how mad they would be if I told them I didn't want to go to college. If I could ever convince my parents, and make sure that this is what I want to do with my life, even if I don't get very high up in the food chain, then I would be all for it. Who needs school anyway.

did TF go to college?  or did he go to work for his uncle....worked out pretty good for him didn't it... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Advice on how to get into the golf architecture business
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2013, 07:37:47 PM »
Tim,
Go to work ASAP at a local club on the maintenance crew. Even if only on weekends or after school. Get out on the golf course.
My advice would be to get a college education. I look back now and wish I had majored in English, sure some here wish that as well.

Anything worth attaining is tough. You will not succeed by trying to be the next Tom Doak or C & C. Find something you believe in and chase that. Innovate, don't copy. And when you do, and show a little success, they will hit back hard. Believe in what you do and have faith in yourself as it is a dirty business.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 07:40:00 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

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