[Garland Bayley]

...
Garland Bailey, why on earth should we be promoting 2.5 hour rounds? 3.5, 3.75, 4..fine. But it will only happen on a course that allows for it!!
ie: Bethpage Black effect
...

I guess I don't know which of my comments you are referencing here. If it is the tour rounds in 2 hours, all courses allow tour rounds in 2 hours unless the player calls for a ruling. And that includes Bethpage Black.

If you are referencing my comment about the same unoccupied course being played in 2.5 hours and 4.5 hours by different foursomes. Then clearly the course referenced allows for it. That is completely beside the point. The point is that the difference is in players habits. The unfortunate thing is that when you tell the players that cause the 4.5 hour rounds that they are slow players, they don't believe they are. I've been thinking of developing an app for timing the individual players in a foursome. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

[Brent Hutto]

I think it was indeed Dean Beman who Jack specifically adopted his approach to yardages from. It was payed attention to by many players much earlier than that of course (perhaps including Hogan) but it was Beman's particularly detailed and organized approach that Jack adopted early in his career.

Thomas, I think you confuse knowing how far one is standing from the hole with standing around puzzling over infinite permutations of distances to multiple points on the course. There's no reason knowing ones distance from the green or distance from the hole has to take any longer than not knowing. It's the conversations, double-checking, over-thinking and general fussiness ABOUT those yardages that turns into several minutes per shot for some people.

[Thomas Dai]

I think it was indeed Dean Beman who Jack specifically adopted his approach to yardages from. It was payed attention to by many players much earlier than that of course (perhaps including Hogan) but it was Beman's particularly detailed and organized approach that Jack adopted early in his career.
Thomas, I think you confuse knowing how far one is standing from the hole with standing around puzzling over infinite permutations of distances to multiple points on the course. There's no reason knowing ones distance from the green or distance from the hole has to take any longer than not knowing. It's the conversations, double-checking, over-thinking and general fussiness ABOUT those yardages that turns into several minutes per shot for some people.

No confusion from me, I said "some may say" not 'me say'!

BTW, have a look 5 mins and 30 secs into this yee olde film of Harry Vardon and Ted Ray from 1914 as first posted back in October by Bryan Izatt - http://ssa.nls.uk/film/3007 - amazing in this day and age to see the speed of their shot assessment followed by the speed of their play - and Ol' Harry and Ol' Ted only won a mere 9 Pro-Majors between them, and that back in the days when there were only two pro-Majors per year.

All the best.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

...
Garland Bailey, why on earth should we be promoting 2.5 hour rounds? 3.5, 3.75, 4..fine. But it will only happen on a course that allows for it!!
ie: Bethpage Black effect
...

I guess I don't know which of my comments you are referencing here. If it is the tour rounds in 2 hours, all courses allow tour rounds in 2 hours unless the player calls for a ruling. And that includes Bethpage Black.

If you are referencing my comment about the same unoccupied course being played in 2.5 hours and 4.5 hours by different foursomes. Then clearly the course referenced allows for it. That is completely beside the point. The point is that the difference is in players habits. The unfortunate thing is that when you tell the players that cause the 4.5 hour rounds that they are slow players, they don't believe they are. I've been thinking of developing an app for timing the individual players in a foursome. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

GB-
I don't want this to go into a petty argument, but you can't play Bethpage Black in 2 Hours. Won't happen. Have played 50+ rounds a BB, 35 sleeping in a car and getting the first few tee times. All collegiate players playing in a good clip. 4:00-5:00 for 4ball, maybe a 2 ball can go round in 3:15-3:45.

Top tier tournament golf is not played in 2.5 hours. It happens occasionally when the player gets the draw, and is not in contention. Tournament golf requires thought, REAL thought. What most golfers do not do.

Not saying it can't happen faster than it is--it can. But I think this is exactly the point--the tour and what's going on in everyday play SHOULD NOT BE THE COMPARISON--the two do not belong in the same sentence.

If you want to talk about the tour players providing a good example, then ok, I get it. But for those of us running a golf course it comes down to educating our student's on how to play and getting the golf course set up correctly, and hopefully the canvas allows for it.

[Garland Bayley]

MSS,

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Patrick_Mucci]

GB-

I don't want this to go into a petty argument, but you can't play Bethpage Black in 2 Hours.
Won't happen.
Have played 50+ rounds a BB, 35 sleeping in a car and getting the first few tee times.


All collegiate players playing in a good clip. 4:00-5:00 for 4ball, maybe a 2 ball can go round in 3:15-3:45.

MSS, I'd agree, but, they're part of the problem.
The culture of golf, at competitive levels, has devolved into excrutiatingly long rounds.

I'd be willing to bet that my group of characters could play the course in under 3:00 without much difficulty.

While BPB is massive in scale, it's not much longer than GCGC, just down the road.
Granted that GCGC is more compact, green to tee, it's the culture, not the topography and/or design that prohibits fast play.

Top tier tournament golf is not played in 2.5 hours.

I completely agree, but, it shouldn't be played in 6.0, 5.5 or 5.0 either.
Slow play has become an erosive force that was allowed to become pervasive in tournament golf by the governing bodies.
They're all guilty, from the national level down to the regional and state level and ultimately, to the local level.

Now, it's not so easy to put the genie back in the bottle.
But, it can be done, if the governing bodies have the will, and I don't think they do.

Talk is cheap.
Put me in charge and I'd guarantee you that within five years, play would be at an acceptable pace.

It happens occasionally when the player gets the draw, and is not in contention.
Tournament golf requires thought, REAL thought. What most golfers do not do.

"Course management" requires thought, real thought, but, I'm not so sure that the act of hitting the ball requires that much thought for the skilled golfer who's hit a hundred thousand or more practice balls.

Not saying it can't happen faster than it is--it can. But I think this is exactly the point--the tour and what's going on in everyday play SHOULD NOT BE THE COMPARISON--the two do not belong in the same sentence.

Agreed

If you want to talk about the tour players providing a good example, then ok, I get it.

But for those of us running a golf course it comes down to educating our student's on how to play and getting the golf course set up correctly, and hopefully the canvas allows for it.

I think an inherent problem with slow play is that the retail or country club golfer wants to emulate the best golfers in the world, and I understand that, unfortunately, emulating them also includes their pace of play.

If I watch TV this week and the PGA Tour players start putting with one foot off the ground and affixed to the inside of their knee you can bet, within a week, that thousands of golfers will be trying that putting style (including me )

When those you look up to are part of the problem, it's difficult to disengage your everyday golfer and his habits, from those he's trying to emulate.

Thus, the governing bodies have to be the ones to promote and enforce fast play.

ANGC might be a great place to start.

And, just think, play began to slow down when they banned the Stymie.

Bring back the STYMIE

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt Ward's take:

http://www.mynegm.com/golf/whats-news/usga-slow-play-symposium/

My article:

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=2392&pid=11

[Sean_A]

I find the argument in favour of 5+ hour rounds for tour/top flight ams perplexing.  I can fully understand the issue where tv is concerned because advertising is so important, but that has nothing to do with "it should take that long".  All US sports are slowed down for tv and golf is no different.  Only golfers are somehow special because once they become great they need more time for some reason - sometimes more time than a commercial break  .  I am definitely one ex tour watcher solely because they play so slowly.  If I want to catch a nap, there are few better ways to do so than an afternoon "watching" the tour on tv - it bores me to sleep.  

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Here in the UK we pay a TV licence which pays for the BBC which in turn produces quality (some of the time) programmes and no adverts. The Open Championship is shown on the BBC and the pace of play (at least this year) was pretty good. So I can see the argument about advertisers and sponsors wanting slower player is probably true.

For amateur play I would imagine that in the US the requirement to return a card for every round played (absolute nuts ) would make play slower. Here in the Scottish Highlands I cannot recall the last time it to over 3.5 hours to play 18.

Jon

[Colin Macqueen]

Aye Jon,

A quick roond and time enough for a wee dram!

Cheers Colin

[Matt Wharton]

GB-

I don't want this to go into a petty argument, but you can't play Bethpage Black in 2 Hours.
Won't happen.
Have played 50+ rounds a BB, 35 sleeping in a car and getting the first few tee times.


All collegiate players playing in a good clip. 4:00-5:00 for 4ball, maybe a 2 ball can go round in 3:15-3:45.

MSS, I'd agree, but, they're part of the problem.
The culture of golf, at competitive levels, has devolved into excrutiatingly long rounds.

I'd be willing to bet that my group of characters could play the course in under 3:00 without much difficulty.

While BPB is massive in scale, it's not much longer than GCGC, just down the road.
Granted that GCGC is more compact, green to tee, it's the culture, not the topography and/or design that prohibits fast play.

Top tier tournament golf is not played in 2.5 hours.

I completely agree, but, it shouldn't be played in 6.0, 5.5 or 5.0 either.
Slow play has become an erosive force that was allowed to become pervasive in tournament golf by the governing bodies.
They're all guilty, from the national level down to the regional and state level and ultimately, to the local level.

Now, it's not so easy to put the genie back in the bottle.
But, it can be done, if the governing bodies have the will, and I don't think they do.

Talk is cheap.
Put me in charge and I'd guarantee you that within five years, play would be at an acceptable pace.

It happens occasionally when the player gets the draw, and is not in contention.
Tournament golf requires thought, REAL thought. What most golfers do not do.

"Course management" requires thought, real thought, but, I'm not so sure that the act of hitting the ball requires that much thought for the skilled golfer who's hit a hundred thousand or more practice balls.

Not saying it can't happen faster than it is--it can. But I think this is exactly the point--the tour and what's going on in everyday play SHOULD NOT BE THE COMPARISON--the two do not belong in the same sentence.

Agreed

If you want to talk about the tour players providing a good example, then ok, I get it.

But for those of us running a golf course it comes down to educating our student's on how to play and getting the golf course set up correctly, and hopefully the canvas allows for it.

I think an inherent problem with slow play is that the retail or country club golfer wants to emulate the best golfers in the world, and I understand that, unfortunately, emulating them also includes their pace of play.

If I watch TV this week and the PGA Tour players start putting with one foot off the ground and affixed to the inside of their knee you can bet, within a week, that thousands of golfers will be trying that putting style (including me )

When those you look up to are part of the problem, it's difficult to disengage your everyday golfer and his habits, from those he's trying to emulate.

Thus, the governing bodies have to be the ones to promote and enforce fast play.

ANGC might be a great place to start.

And, just think, play began to slow down when they banned the Stymie.

Bring back the STYMIE

The men's golf team from UNC Charlotte is permitted access to my course (Carolina Golf Club) on Wednesday mornings during the fall and spring.  The young men usually play in either twosomes or threesomes depending on how many kids the coach brings and how many tee times we make available to them (2 or 3).  They of course walk and carry their own bags.  Coach walks with each of the groups and observes.  I have observed these young players (talented players too, mind you) on numerous occasions and I can tell you the future of professional golf will only be getting slower.  These guys take FOREVER to play golf.  I have NEVER witnessed one player ever putt out, they always mark and wait even for the shortest of tap-ins.  I mentioned these observations of mine to our Head Golf Professional over lunch one day.  Our pro played collegiately at Lamar back in the 90's and he tells me back then coaches DRILLED into their players to go through their entire routine before every shot, even the shortest of putts...because if you miss a two-footer because you didn't take your time, and that one shot cost your team a match it would be your "head on a platter" so to speak.  Thus the kids coming through the collegiate ranks today are just going to continue the current slow trend, which I find unfortunate.

[archie_struthers]

 

What am I missing , the majority of viewers don't watch golf on Thursday or Friday , but do so on the weekend . So why the argument about 144 players . Isn't there a cut for weekends?  

Hello

[Pete Blaisdell]

    Yardage books started in the amateur ranks in the '50's and one can credit a gentleman by the name of Gene Andrews, Deane probably picked it up as it trickled down from Gene.

     Hogan was not big on yardages. He always felt that every shot had a look, a certain " feel" to it. He would say, " Hell, I might want a four iron from 155"

[Brent Hutto]

   Yardage books started in the amateur ranks in the '50's and one can credit a gentleman by the name of Gene Andrews, Deane probably picked it up as it trickled down from Gene.

     Hogan was not big on yardages. He always felt that every shot had a look, a certain " feel" to it. He would say, " Hell, I might want a four iron from 155"

But did Hogan want to know that it was 155?

[Anthony Butler]

The Red Sox won the World Series and they are the undisputed world champions of baseball.  

On the other hand, they do make the game last a lot longer... Boston's insistence at only swinging at pitches in the strike zone resulted in 1-0 games taking 3.5+ hours... In their case, it is done to gain competitive advantage.. to get starting pitchers like Justin Verlander out of the game and into the opposition bullpen. Expect more of the same next season from the Red Sox and other teams...

The competitive advantage created by slow play on the golf course is dubious at best. On the professional level, it is most likely caused by the swing gurus and other headshrinkers who construct a one minute pre-shot routine for every shot. It makes sense for dealing with the pressure of the back nine on Sunday, but most of them go with it straight out of the gate on Thursday morning.

[Cristian]

Perhaps improving pace of play needs some drastic out of the box thinking; Enforcing some new rules that would hardly change the game for amateurs who play at a decent pace, but that would change pace of play for pro's and amateurs in tournaments dramatically. For instance:

* The Flag always stays in the hole.

* You are not allowed on the green until your ball is on the green.

* In 3/4ball play: Usage of yardage books is only allowed if it is not your turn to play.

* Maximum 2 practice strokes/swings

* If a 3 ball loose more than a hole on the previous group AND take longer than 4 hours, a stroke is added to the score of all members of the group. (Yes the slower player will hurt the others in the group theoretically, but watch what peer pressure will accomplish)

These rules would save round times by almost an hour per 4ball I reckon, on any course. It sounds drastic, but if you think of it, it is not really that dramatic. Any disadvantages to scoring opportunities would be equal to all players. So what if everybody would score one or two strokes more on average? I would much rather watch a tournament under these rules and I would surely rather play on a course where everybody abides by these rules.

What other simple rules can improve pace of play?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

If you have never played top tier golf and actually had to play for something then I promise you can't understand why it takes longer in that venue, so it's not worth arguing.

WITH THAT SAID---the top player would do better to play more off instinct then second guess--- where the problems really start internally and externally (slow play).

Blame whatever you want for that, but I bet one of you is a JACK LOVER--go watch the 71 US Open--how was that pace of play? . The players in the "golden age" were working with complex idea's--- the idea that technicality in the game is new is total bullshit. The players in the by gone era's were probably more technical then today's players---and get this-- they did it without a video camera and $30,000 missile radar!!

Get this straight--I AM BY NO MEANS CONDOING SLOW PLAY ON THE PGA TOUR. It happens to be part of the game, and the ENTIRE point of the thread is to highlight that we need not focus as much energy to the tour as our OWN clubs and courses.

To FOCUS on the BULLSHIT MAINTENANCE practiced by so many clubs that is directly contributing to slow play. Get the KNOW NOTHING Green Chairman's OUT. If I play one more New York Metro course with NATIVE that squeezes the life out of another one of these beauties I am going to PUKE. BIG UPs to Shinnecock for getting this right.

Trim the menacing limbs that encroach play and take away strategy. WIDEN THE COORIDORS. Get this--SLOW THE GREENS DOWN.

Yea, let's get the tour playing faster. I AM WITH YOU. But there's a reason why my slow ass 4 ball playing with more bets that most on this website see in a year could play 36 holes at the GREAT Palmetto Golf Club after sleeping in and playing amongst a 100 player outing all playing 27+ holes!!

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