News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« on: November 10, 2013, 08:26:27 AM »
Michael Hendren on another thread refers to Dye as bridging the gap between one era of gca and another and being the most influential architect of all. Is that purely an American-centric view or does that stand up for his influence in Europe and indeed elsewhere out of the US ?

FWIW, I have no view either way and look forward to reading everyones response.

Thanks

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 08:30:51 AM »
There are a hell of a lot of island greens on modern courses across Europe
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2013, 05:03:30 AM »
so, is that it ? A few lousy island greens, nothing else ?

Niall

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2013, 05:51:33 AM »
It seems the response to this thread may have answered your question.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2013, 06:01:06 AM »
Railroad ties in the bunkers at The European Club?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2013, 06:07:44 AM »
Personally, I think the American designer who had the biggest impact on European golf is Robert Trent Jones, by a considerable distance.

Jones and his firm built a number of high profile courses across Europe at a time when golf was really starting to grow in those countries, both as a tourist proposition and among local players. But his influence extends far beyond his firm's own courses.

Some of the key players in today's European design sector were Jones trained in one way or another: Cabell Robinson in Spain to David Krause in Germany and Jeremy Slessor, the boss of European Golf Design, the European Tour/IMG joint venture that is by a distance the continent's largest design shop.

More than that, though, the Jones style of design - called it the modern movement if you like - remains the dominant form across much of Europe. We see courses that have large greens, lots of water and big, complex shaped bunkers all over the continent, some created by American firms, but also lots by Europeans who came to the game at a time when Jones's ideas were dominant.

Look at the European course rankings. Obviously Valderrama is a Jones/Rulewich course, but places like PGA Catalunya, though created by Europeans, reek of his influence.

Even today we see new courses being built in this image - I would say that the International course in Amsterdam, which a number of GCAers saw this summer, is clearly a course in that mould.

We see little of a direct Dye influence in European golf, except on a very facile level - the island greens that are everywhere, the Whistling Straits fantasy of Sand GC in Sweden.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2013, 06:13:37 AM »
Railroad ties in the bunkers at The European Club?

No, was the other way round Scott.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2013, 07:34:38 AM »
Personally, I think the American designer who had the biggest impact on European golf is Robert Trent Jones, by a considerable distance.

Jones and his firm built a number of high profile courses across Europe at a time when golf was really starting to grow in those countries, both as a tourist proposition and among local players. But his influence extends far beyond his firm's own courses.

Some of the key players in today's European design sector were Jones trained in one way or another: Cabell Robinson in Spain to David Krause in Germany and Jeremy Slessor, the boss of European Golf Design, the European Tour/IMG joint venture that is by a distance the continent's largest design shop.

More than that, though, the Jones style of design - called it the modern movement if you like - remains the dominant form across much of Europe. We see courses that have large greens, lots of water and big, complex shaped bunkers all over the continent, some created by American firms, but also lots by Europeans who came to the game at a time when Jones's ideas were dominant.

Look at the European course rankings. Obviously Valderrama is a Jones/Rulewich course, but places like PGA Catalunya, though created by Europeans, reek of his influence.

Even today we see new courses being built in this image - I would say that the International course in Amsterdam, which a number of GCAers saw this summer, is clearly a course in that mould.

We see little of a direct Dye influence in European golf, except on a very facile level - the island greens that are everywhere, the Whistling Straits fantasy of Sand GC in Sweden.

Very thoughtful analysis Adam. Maybe a key influence you can add is von Hagge, who has some Dye influences, and has been very influencial on the European scene, with some very good courses

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2013, 08:17:44 AM »
Didn't Brancaster and Westwood Ho! have railway sleepers many moons before Pete Dye was born?
Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2013, 09:53:52 AM »
Mark

Point well made but in fairness to Pete Dye I don't think he wasn't claiming to have come up with that by himself, indeed quite the contrary. Do you think that there might be a case in saying his major influence was to encourage other designers to go back to what had gone before and reinterpret it ?

Niall 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pete Dye's influence on European golf ?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2013, 09:57:16 AM »
Adam,

Very interesting post and I suspect that there can't be too many that have seen as much modern architecture in Europe as you have. Do you see any difference in what has been done in the UK compared to mainland Europe or is it all pretty mcuh of a muchness ?

Niall