[Matt_Ward]

SS1:

I guess you must have missed my most emphatic point from my last post -- I DON'T BASE MY REVIEWS ON SOME SORT OF DISTANCE EQUATION. You simply keep repeating (sad to say like a parrot) that I somehow equate only my play or the aspect of distance as the be-all end-all. That is not the case at all and quite frankly, I am growing quite tired and somewhat annoyed that I have to state this over and over again.

If people don't like my opinion -- fine! But, I have seen enough golf throughout the country and rated a number of courses as being "great" IMHO that don't have the distance equation stamped on their forehead. Just see my personal top 50 listing that was listed (very few others did post there listing I might add) under the thread started by Tom Doak.

Let me also mention that too many people here on GCA spin the argument back to the messenger (in this case me) when the points I have raised are quickly forgotten or dismissed -- to wit -- there are quite a few people who follow the "star" architect syndrome and anyone not on that preferred listing has double the weight to carry up the road of recognition. If you don't believe that happens then I have land in the Meadowlands for you to buy!

When you say the statement I made that HC is not the top ten in NJ and that is some sort of "harsh statement" -- I'll counter that by saying you need to look at the courses ahead of it and please tell me which ones don't belong to make room for HC?

1). Pine Valley
2). Plainfield
3). Baltusrol (Lower)
4). Hollywood
5). Galloway National
6). Metedeconk National (1st & 3rd Nines)
6). Essex County CC
7). Ridgewood (East & West)
. Baltusrol (Upper)
9 & 10). In my mind Somerset Hills, Montclair (#2 & #4), Forsgate (Banks Course) and Atlantic City CC are all battling for the last two spots.

*Keep in mind according to Pat Mucci, Jr., that extensive work has been carried forward at Mountain Ridge in West Caldwell.

If you think also that Twisted Dune is not beyond Blue Heron Pines / East and Ballyowen so be it. I, as well as 50 other reviwers, saw it differently but I will say in all fairness that the margin between the three is not that wide and clearly when a new poll is done next year things may change (Ballyowen was rated #1 in 2000).

Puhleeeeeeeeeeeze, Architect's Club is a fine design but the reality is that until you step on the 7th tee the first six holes are merely warm-up ones to get ready for the test that lies ahead. The course is listed, if memory serves, already in the top 5-6 in Garden State public courses by Jersey Golfer and unless you may have forgotten the 9th hole was selected by me as one of the best public holes in the state.

Do me a big favor before you pontificate about my "supercillious" opinions how bout you devevelop some elephant size ones and post your comments? I said before I will likely return to Hidden Creek and see the course again. My opinion might change and it may not. I try to keep an open mind. Do you?

P.S. Even Babe Ruth struck out a few times in his career and for all those fans of the "star" architects they also strike out from time to time or at the minimum only hit a solid double base hit. One last thing -- sometimes the biggest problem they have is trying to go beyond the clear masterpieces they have designed ahead of the ones that will follow. The "pre" buzz spin you see with certain architects is a testament to what they previously designed -- it doesn't hold water that each and every course after that will equal or surpass the one before. That's something smart reviewers understand. Again -- do you?

I also think it's about time people started to observe the works of other architects who exist. I've mentioned five courses that I would drop into a top 100 before Hidden Creek and I will say this again for those with short memories -- I believe Hidden Creek to be a fine design but a top 100 listing is something that requires a Herculean result. I don't see it with the course and a return visit will tell me if my initial observations were in order. Nothing more -- nothing less.

[Jim_Michaels]

Hidden Creek is not difficult.I have a feeling that is part of what you don't like about it Matt. I loved it. Given the choice between 1 round at Hidden Creek or any combination of the Metedeconk 9s, there is no contest which I would prefer. Hidden Creek challenges your mind. Metedeconk challenges you to his specific shots. I greatlly prefer the former.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

Good points and well taken although I don't think they were directed at me. I have found your course analysis to be fair and pretty darn accurate. Anyway, how long ago was the Doak post about everyone's top 50? I would love to post mine. Also, I would assume that it is your top 50 you have played rather than just a top 50.

[Mike_Sweeney]

SS1,

I enjoy a good shot or two at Matt Ward on occasion as Matt and I have a running Shinny vs NGLA debate. But I must admit he gets gets a bad rap for distance. He is a big supporter of Forsgate - Banks and that course plays a little over 6700 yards on a rolling but not hilly property. I only got to see 12 holes due to my time constraints, but I thought Matt was right on in listing it behind Essex County another private Banks course in North Jersey. I hope to get back to Forsgate in the Fall. I also like that he fights for the lesser known architects, Rees certainly doesn't need any more exposure, and I like playing under the radar courses.

I personally prefer the Doak system of rating, and New Jersey is very lucky to have a number 7's including Hidden Creek. If it is a 7.02 or a 7.23 is kind of meaningless in the big picture, and I would recommend it to anyone visiting the NY - Philly corridor.

[Ran Morrissett]

I too was disappointed with Hidden Creek's ranking - I thought it should have been much higher than #72 in the US!

The course profile of it on this site supports a lofty ranking. Anyone who doesn't think so, I would love for them to pick apart the course profile and explain the design's short comings.

Hidden Creek is very comparable to the Old Course at Sunningdale which is 44th in the world. I hope such delightful courses as Swinley Forest, West Sussex, Royal Ashdown Forest, The Addington and yes Hidden Creek might well appear on GOLF's world rankings in years to come - now there's a list of courses I really want to play!!

Cheers,

[Mike Worth]

Wow.

Thanks, Matt.  

Not much else for me to say.  Not having played all of your top #10 courses, I'll refrain from demonstrating the size of my scroti.  My comments were directed at your perceived approach to ratings.   A man's opinion is his opinion and that should be respected.  If you say length isn't a factor in your ratings, I believe.  Regarding Twisted Dune, while an intersting course with some great holes, my own feeling is that many people are in awe of the look of the course, with the mounds and vegatation (even the high voltage power lines with stantions mounted in the middle of flooded sand plains gives a unique look too) .  However, none of "the look" comes into play, it's all eye candy, IMO.  Regarding Architects Club, I'll mostly agree with your comments, except to say that prior to #6, I think #2, #3, #4, and #5 are very good holes too, #6 (isn't that the 150 yrd drop shot par 3) is so so, but the rest is a challenge as you put it.  

Hope you enjoy your return to Hidden Creek.  .  

[Matt_Ward]

SS1:

If you're interested next year Jersey Golfer will once again have a poll for the best in Jersey -- public and private as well as separate special categories (i.e. best short par-3. best conditioned, etc, etc).

If you're interested in participating send me an e-mail offline. One last thing -- there's more to Twisted Dune then simply eye-candy. I can name a number of hole where positioning (#2, #3, #4, #9 and most of the back) is well done. I've never been a fan of the closer at TD but if you think it doesn't deserve its standing I'd like you to tell me where you'd rate it among other public courses in the state. If you're saying it's not even top five then we see things dramatically different.

I'll say this again -- I don't rate solely on distance but I'm also not going to wax on and on and on like some people do who have this phobia on giving courses credit for being demanding when they have to be and yes -- distance is certainly a part of the equation.

To the group:

Let me also say that ratings should be divorced from this incessant passion a number of people have for promoting the "star" architect -- I much rather promote the "STAR" COURSE.

New Jersey is blessed with a good number of exceptional to excellent golf courses. The introduction of a new course may make waves in the public category because for too long the state only had top shelf taxpayer owned courses. That has changed over the last 15-20 years. The private side of the ledger has always been much deeper and therefore when a new course comes on board it will take something of extreme qualities to make a push into such elite grouping.

I think some people have grossly overstated the qualities of Hidden Creek but then develop amnesia and forget to see the qualities of one of the finest TF designs you can play nearby in Galloway National. The restoration effort by Tom Doak at Atlantic City CC is also solid stuff and if someone can explain to me how Hidden Creek rates ahead of them both I'm all ears.

Mr. Hurricane:

When I posted my personal top 50 I have played all of them. Keep in mind -- others from the cheap seats in left field lobbed grenades at my list but had parakeet b*lls in posting their own.

Jim Michaels:

Can you tell me what nines at Metedeconk you played? The new 3rd nine I believe is something that elevates the layout. If you care to share why Hidden Creek is ahead of Metedeconk I would most appreciate that. Thanks!

[GeoffreyC]

Ran

You must be joking! (notice NO smilies).

Hidden Creek is on topography much like a Garden City which you so eloquently wrote about in another thread.  I'll grant you that the greens surfaces might be more complex and interesting but that's where the comparison ends.

The bottom line is that but for a few hazards such as the challenging bunker on the right approach to the par 5 3rd, they are look good play easy non entities.  A typical example is your long description of the bunker on #1 greenside.  You say that challenging the left off the tee (even with the fairway sloping from left to right) give you an unencombered line into the green.  That's true but it really makes NO difference to finding about any pin location and the bunker is of no consequence.  Its depth and playability are minimally challenging and is is well far away from the green surface to come into play for only the weaker player or a really poorly played shot.  That's what I see for so many of the hazards at Hidden Creek.  They make for a nice story in a review but in reality they are easily played from or they are just non-entities due to their placement.

Maybe I need to see it again but that's my take.  It has wonderful greens, very good variety and its a great contender for the bottom 1/3 of the GW Top 100 modern list but Top 100 in the US is way too big a stretch.

Ran- I read your reviews of Huntingdon Valley and I took you to Fenway.  Those also are glowing.  Please tell me why Hidden Creek has more attributes then these two gems?  I'll give you a whole list of others after that!

Ran again- You always speak that great golf courses must have great golf holes.  I agree completely.  Does HC have a short par 4 to match Fenways' 15th?  Does the long par 4 10th at HC match the great 5th at Fenway?  Is there a match to Fenway's long par 3 6th or 11th for that matter at Hidden Creek?  Does HC have a great par 5 to match the 3rd at Fenway? Are the green complexes at any of these at HC equal to those at Fenway?  Fenway doesn't even make the Golf list so we can equally do the same comparisons with many other courses.  Your comparison where Garden City matches Muirfield could also show it overtakes HC on EVERY point.

Please use the same critical judgement you apply to Muirfield, SFGC and others to HC and you will come up with the same conclusion.

[Mike Worth]

Matt Ward.  I would agree Twisted Dune is in the top 4 in New Jersey.  I believe, however, Ballyowen and BHP East are much better.  I agree with the rest of what you said about TD, and totally agree abou #18.  When I played it, i think it was a 505 yard par 4, which is silly.  Agree with your other assessment of the holes as you posted.  

[Mike Worth]

Mr. Childs.  I totally disagree with your characterization of Hidden Creek's bunkers being "look good, play easy".  I would agree with your other statement that you might want to see it again.  From a member's perspective,there are many more bunkers that are strategically place and DO NOT play easy.  Examples:  #4 right side green bunker, #9, left side fairway bunker, #11, several bunkers, to include left greenside bunker and the tiny pot bunker even with the middle of the green on the right side.  The Cross bunker on #12 is penal and comes into play very often, the line of bunkers on the left side of #13 and the cross bunker on #17 also qualify for your description.  

 

[GeoffreyC]

SS1- as a member (I assume) you should be happy to play such a good course regularly. Placing it as an excellent contender for GW top 100 modern says that I think a lot of the course.  However, Top 100 of all the 30,000 courses in the US and making th WORLD top 100 list brings it into a different realm entirely. Sorry for not buying that argument.

2nd hole- the central fairway bunker is very playable.  It certainly doesn't cause too much concern off the tee as for instance seeing tose marker flags that show the location of the pots at Garden City! From the righ side of that fairway the view might be obscured but the bunker is of little consequence unless you happen to find a bad lie in the right rough (that's a very wide fairwat too).

5th hole- that "subtle hidden approach from the right" is a bit too subtle as again its only of consequence to a poor player who misses a shot by a good deal.

8th - great green but again the central bunker is playable to the green unless you really get up against the front lip.

11ht - teriffic hole as you mention but my up and down from the blind rear right bunker was pretty routine. Again to make the comparison with hazards at Garden City- (there are none). Still a wonderful hole.

13th- as Mike Cirba first mentioned- dropped from the moon- different and contrived andout of place with the rest of the course.

14th- very interesting and unique green but could also be thought of as sticking a flag in the middle of a field.

17th - looks great but that's about all.

As I said HC is a wonderful course with many attributes that I could equally write about but you, Ran and maybe others are trying to put it into company with the very elite few (Top 100) IN THE WORLD! Given its flat topography like a Garden City the ground game opportuunities don't work as well as they should because the hazards aren't hazardous enough. I'll certainly look at it again carefully if they ever let me set foot on the property again (remember top 100 modern isn't bad   ) but that's my take.

[mike_malone]

 I love it when marginal  college basketball schools get all excited because they made  it to the 64 in the NCAA.The commentators argue that S.Illinois should have been there instead.
     It does not make a difference since either one is going nowhere in the tournament.


  This relates to Lehigh making it into the top 100.I have little doubt that it is because Mark Fine did a good job of exposing people to the course.There are probably 100 or 200 courses that can be in the bottom half of the 100.But none of them is heading for the top 25.
 
  Lehigh is a wonderful golf course and does not embarass the list by being there.But many other courses could easily replace it the next time the ratings come out.


  It would be more interesting to hear why Merion does not belong in the top 100.That would generate more heat,although maybe not much light.

[Ran Morrissett]

Geoffrey,

I vote for Fenway in the world top 100; clearly there are those that think it doesn't belong in the top 100 of the US but I'm not one them (my guess is that not many panelists have visited it since Gil's work or perhaps even know about Gil's work as, like many private clubs, Fenway keeps a relatively low profile).

However, you ask if HC has a par three better than 6 or 11 at Fenway? I assume you have forgotten about the great 4th at HC?! Also, the 11th at HC is a true gem and overall, HC's one shotters certainly beat the one shotters at Fenway (which is the weak link of that course).

Also, for intangibles, HC has infinitely superior playing corridors and playing angles than Fenway. Are you all of a sudden pretending that Fenway doesn't have a tree problem?!

I disagree completely about the 13th at HC as being cut from a different cloth. The 14th green is the height of subtlety as it runs down and away from the player though few realize and allow for that fact. Do you find no charm in its apparent simplicity? I do.

Yes, 99% of the architects would have manufactured a green site that looks comfortingly at the player and is built to receive and hold shots. Not so with C&C. You shouldn't get a 5 on the 14th very often but I guarantee that plenty of 4's make there way onto the card. It is a great example of a shot bleeding away with the player never understanding why.

And I think that's true for the course in general. I remember the thrill of hitting the 3rd in two but the approach released to the back. The hole was forward and a two putt was beyond my ability. I can't play it any better but par was all I could do. Same for the 17th - that little mound left front of the green was just enough to deflect a seemingly perfect running approach from getting nice and close.

Coore and the boys spent quite a lot of time on site at Hidden Creek. I for one think that they spent the time VERY WISELY, giving each and every hole character and good golfing qualities. There are very, very few modern courses where the same can be said.

Cheers,

[GeoffreyC]

Ran

Points well taken.  

I think the 4th at HC needs a rear right bunker. Otherwise its a really nice hole and about on par with the 16th at The Kingsley Club. It is of a different gendre then the brute 6th at Fenway or the wild uphill 11th as well. We can disagree on that one.

Trees are a big problem at Fenway.  They've removed the offensive ones short left (near the OB) of the green on #3 and many on the left of #5. Hopefully MANY more will follow. They've also added the cross bunker on #1 and the choices off the tee have increased a lot.

I agree that C & C made the most out of an uninteresting property and turned a 2 into a 7. Its a wonderful golf course.  

Remember this quote "GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote the frank commentary on the world's finest golf courses."  I think we are doing just that.

[Ran Morrissett]

Geoffrey, You've done it again! Please don't refer to HC's property as uninteresting    The pre-existing sandy pit prior to the 3rd green, the hogback 5th fairway, the rolling 12th - these are all dream features for an architect to discover on any site and Coore's routing took full advantage.

I am changing the front of web site to read  "GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote the frank commentary on the world's finest golf courses, unless you are a molecular scientist in which case you need to play Hidden Creek several times before being so sure that you didn't miss anything."  

[GeoffreyC]

Ran

I look forward to seeing the front of the web site recognize molecular biology.  I must say its about time!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Ran;

You have a great eye for subtlety.  And yes, no question, there are "some" interesting natural features at HC, utilized effectively by the architects.

Most modern architects on the very same property would have created a course which pales in comparison, or which would have been over-engineered to create something more dramatic.  We agree wholeheartedly.

Geoffrey is being generous with his "7", however, and I'll call him out on it.  I think the course is a 7 or even 7.5 for the first twelve holes, and then peters out.  The final result is closer to a Doak Scale 6, and that's hardly a criticism.  A "6" is one of the best 200-300 courses in the country, out of 20,000, which  is a GREAT compliment.  It would be a real treat to be a member there, no question.

However, I just think that although C&C maximized the property, there are inherent limitations to the property that prevented a purely minimalist approach from achieving more than they did.  Let's not forget, this isn't the rolling sand dunes of Sand Hills, or the interesting variety of land forms that Friar's Head provided.  Instead, it's a relatively flat, forested course with perhaps 30 feet of total elevation change with long, flattish stretches in the pine woods of south New Jersey.  

The fact that the course has such tremendous holes as 3,4,6,8,10,11,12 is testament to the talent of the architects, and the whole atmosphere of the club is evidence of the superb vision of the owner, yet I still find it hard to accept that the course provides enough shots one would want to try over and over....for 18 holes...to elevate it to the status that Golf Magazine has.

I'm very happy for the club that they've achieved this honor, yet I can't find myself agreeing with the assessment.

[GeoffreyC]

Mike-

I am duely called out   .  As per our many conversations you know that I fully agree with your honest assessment of HC.  It's a teriffic course and everything you said is true (IMO) but I think the lavish praise given to this course by Ran and perhaps Ron Whitten in his GD article can only take away from the truly amazing, unique, elite, world class, (insert more complimentary adjectives here) courses like Friar's Head that really deserve them!

[Matt_Ward]

Ran:

I would be most interested in your assessment of two neighbor courses to Hidden Creek -- Galloway National and Atlantic City Country Club.

Thanks!

Geoff:

I am a big fan of Fenway and it's a shame that the course is not highlighted by those who are supposed to be "in the know." I will say this for sure that Fenway most certainly deserves to be rated when I see other courses in the listing now. However, if I removed those courses and substituted a few of the ones I previously mentioned on this thread I don't know if it would still garner a spot. It's possible no doubt - but the competition from the others is not lite weight stuff by any means.

[Ran Morrissett]

Gentleman and former friends,

There in lies the difference - I like the last 6 holes at Hidden Creek as much as the middle 6 or the first 6. In particular 16 with its cross hazard and one of the 2/3 best greens on the course and the great swing hole 17 are GREAT favorites. However, so is the bunker placement on 13, the green as discussed previously on 14 and 15 with its down and up sweep capped off by its tough green.

Perhaps we aren't as far apart as you might think - if you too liked the last 6 as much as I do, then you would see Hidden Creek as a bullet proof work of art, most deserving of any and all praise.

Cheers,

PS When next in England, don't worry about playing Walton Heath - it sounds like it is too flat   for your tastes  

[Mike_Cirba]

Ran;

If we agreed with you on everything, we'd be a pretty boring lot now, wouldn't we?  

Nah, I don't think "Ran's Sycophants" would be of as much continuing interest as our current passionately debating group, although it does have a nice ring to it!  

[GeoffreyC]

Ran my friend still

Garden City is a masterpiece.  It's on flat/subtle land and yet Travis has on hole after hole been able to impart THRILLING golf shots.  Much of that has to do with the bunkering placement AND depth and playability. IMHO Hidden Creek does not share those thrilling shot values and because of that it goes down in my opinion.  "Subtle" landforms are all well and good but to reach the pinnacle of golf course design you must put indecision and risk of consequences into the equasion.

I think we'll disagree on this one and perhaps YH as well but that's OK.

[Mike_Cirba]

Having been away from this board for a little bit, I just went back and read this whole thing.  Phew!

A couple of quick thoughts.

Huntingdon Valley deserves to be in the Top 100, clearly.  Philadelphia Country Club also should be a strong candidate, and although I loved Lehigh, both of the other Flynn's are superior.

SS1;

I think you're splitting hairs.  If you named Ballyowen, Blue Heron Pines East, Architects Club, and Twisted Dune as your four favorite publics in NJ, I'm not sure how you can act with such dismay that Matt's publication lists TD as #1, Ballyowen as #2, and BHP East very high as well.  

The only one I think doesn't belong as high as you place it is the Architects Club, although it's a fun and challenging course.

I think that me, you, and Matt would agree that Blue Heron Pines East, Twisted Dune, and Ballyowen are top five publics in NJ, so the rest comes down to personal preference.  

I really enjoyed Hidden Creek, as well, but the Golf Magazine ranking is too high in my opinion.  It's not in my top 10 in NJ, either.

That's less a criticism of HC as a reflection of the wonderful wealth of great courses in the Garden State.

[John Morrissett]

I'm shocked at this reaction to Hidden Creek's debut in the rankings.  Great work was done there.

I don't want to get drawn into a mind-numbing argument over this (or would it be a debate with numb minds?   ), but a few comments:

(1) This spring I played a number of heathland courses around London and on more than one occasion caught myself thinking "OK, they are trying to emulate Hidden Creek but have not quite got all the details right."  Playing those courses only heightened my admiration of HC.  The 2nd at HC would fit seemlessly into Swinley Forest, and the 2nd at SF would be right at home at HC.

(2) I have played HC twice, with a full year between the rounds.  After my initial round I did wonder about the last six holes (individually fine, but taken together perhaps a bit of a letdown).  The second round, though, changed this perception a good bit, as I appreciated more, for example, the need to challenge the dog-leg on 15 (or else be left with a surprisingly long shot into the green), the great 16th green, and the ingenious 17th, where so much could happen at that stage in the round.  (Holes 1-12 are still outstanding, with the 7th and 9th slightly less so.)

[Mike Worth]

J. Morrisset

Finally a positive comment about Hidden Creek  

I just wanted to echo some of your observations.  I will admit the 1st time I played the course I sort of wondered about the strength of the last 6 holes.  But that "feeling" goes away after a second playing of the course.  Many of the members feel the 13th green is one of the more interesting on the course - I'm not sure where these comments come from that 13 looks like it was dropped out of space and doesn't fit.  14 is not an easy par even for single handicap golfers - the green is very complex - ditto your comments on 15 if one is not aggressive you can be left with 180+ yards uphill for a 2nd shot.  On 17, not sure I totally agree about the green being that difficult.  17 is a hole one expects to make birdie and in a tight match, that just adds to the joy of the course.  17 makes for an interesting change of pace after getting the crap kicked out of you on 10, 12 and 16.  Finally, 18 at first glance appears to be a no frills closer, but after playing several times you'll appreciate the angles of attack needed to score well on that hole and the green and green complex are not easy.

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