Whittens "Big 4"

[Joel_Stewart]

Ron Whittens article mentioning the big 4 (C&C, Doak and Hanse) is interesting but I feel he has excluded so many people that it’s unfair. 

I do agree that they (the big 4) have overtaken the Nicklaus, Fazio, Jones, Engh, Norman mentality and helped educate the golfing public, but there are so many other architects that have made such a big impact that it’s important to recognize them.  Collectively they have made almost as big of impact as the Big 4.

Examples,

David Kidd – Told he feels slighted that he is not considered in the big 4 category. Bandon will always be his signature course. Some of his other work not very well received.

Mike Devries – Kingsley and Grey Walls as new courses and restoration at Meadow Club have all received national attention.  Breakout course in Australia could elevate him.

Kyle Phillips - Big portfolio of courses including Kingsbarn which is Top 100 world. His restoration work especially at Cal Club, Incline Village, Menlo and RTJ are very well done.

Others which I’m not qualified to comment are;

Frank Pont
Mike Clayton
Mike Nuzzo
Dan Hixson
Todd Eckenrode

I’m sure there are many others not including the developers and shapers who are the backbone of this movement.

[Bill_McBride]

Rod Whitman
Mike Young
Baxter Spann
Jim Urbina

How can C&C count as two?  

Lots of solid designers out there.  Too bad there's not more work.  

[Ally Mcintosh]

None of the above architects have made anywhere near the impact of the ones Whitten mentions...

Let's for an instance imagine that the internet takes a dive in the next few years; the date is 2103 and all we've got to go on are library archives of old periodicals, a few books about GCA and some overheads... and the golf courses that remain...

If we are to follow Whitten's argument and nominate those that belong to the second "Golden Age", then as things stand, you have Doak leading the pack by a country mile (primarily because he writes - be published or be damned!) with Coore & Crenshaw lagging behind and currently David Kidd and Gil Hanse distant thirds... Kyle Phillips could be one of this crew or just a more modern version of the "other" crew that Joel refers to... The rest of the names above are only known by the few nerds who dig GCA or by those who are members at their courses...

That's effectively where we are now with the first golden age (which is about 90 years old)... Architects that are household names can be counted on one hand... MacKenzie, Colt, Tillinghast, Ross and not many others....

I think he's got it dead-on... And that's only if we genuinely are ignoring the last generation of architects who made a much bigger impact than these 4 have yet to.... History may change that...

[Ronald Montesano]

1. I agreed wholeheartedly with Joel until ...

2. I read what Ally had to say and remembered that life is tough and we must be tougher.

3. A developer needs to look past the fluff (is there still fluff?) and pick the correct designer/architect. A committee needs to interview the correct list and pick the most appropriate guardian to restore a classic course. Ron Whitten is entitled to an opinion and it need not line up with any other.

[Garland Bayley]

IMO there is only a big two, Doak and C&C. Whitten has to stretch to get four by counting two from C&C.
IMO David Kidd doesn't need to feel he's been slighted, he needs to produce better, which is not necessarily more as he seems to produce too much. When your first full design is and remains for a long time your best effort, you need to slow down, regroup, and do better.

[Ronald Montesano]

When your first full design is and remains for a long time your best effort, you need to slow down, regroup, and do better.

Irish Cream (i.e., Bailey)...that's a sharpened sword of a statement. 13 courses in total for David Kidd. I've played one of them (Bandon) and cannot speak to its place in his roster of accomplishments, nor how it fits in the pantheon of courses designed since 1995, nor courses designed since 1495.

I'm curious as to the sourcing of the statement. Is it personal opinion based on on-site experience or what you've read/discussed with others?

with admiration, RM

[Dan_Callahan]

When your first full design is and remains for a long time your best effort, you need to slow down, regroup, and do better.

Not sure that's fair. Salinger, Heller, Tartt ... it's not uncommon for "artists" to reach the pinnacle in their first public work. The fact that subsequent efforts don't quite rise to the level of the first isn't necessarily a sign of lack of effort.

[Rich Goodale]

How much input does "gentle" Ben actually contribute to C&C.  From what I have heard, and reading all the tea leaves, I suspect that it is not enough to be part of any "Big 4."  Have I been misinformed?

[Joel_Stewart]

How much input does "gentle" Ben actually contribute to C&C.  From what I have heard, and reading all the tea leaves, I suspect that it is not enough to be part of any "Big 4."  Have I been misinformed?

This has been discussed before and I believe the answer is quite a bit, much more than people think.  Matt Ginela stirred the pot earlier this year on Golf Channel when he said something like Ben doesn't contribute that much.  

Ally:  I'm thinking on much larger "Macro" scope on the contributions to the movement.  I think Kyle Phillips is just a step away from being in the Big 4 game.  I forgot to mention his work at Wilshire CC which has elevated that club immensely.  It could be his budgets are holding him back since many of his jobs have been quite costly (I'm told).

[Garland Bayley]

When your first full design is and remains for a long time your best effort, you need to slow down, regroup, and do better.

Irish Cream (i.e., Bailey)...that's a sharpened sword of a statement. 13 courses in total for David Kidd. I've played one of them (Bandon) and cannot speak to its place in his roster of accomplishments, nor how it fits in the pantheon of courses designed since 1995, nor courses designed since 1495.

I'm curious as to the sourcing of the statement. Is it personal opinion based on on-site experience or what you've read/discussed with others?

with admiration, RM

The Golfweek raters have spoken on its place in his roster of accomplishments.
Read the Seventh at St. Andrews and you will begin to understand that his efforts go to rain making now much more than when he worked at Bandon.

[Garland Bayley]

When your first full design is and remains for a long time your best effort, you need to slow down, regroup, and do better.

Not sure that's fair. Salinger, Heller, Tartt ... it's not uncommon for "artists" to reach the pinnacle in their first public work. The fact that subsequent efforts don't quite rise to the level of the first isn't necessarily a sign of lack of effort.

Methinks that if you think architects are able to do their best work right out of the box with no meaningful experience then I hope you have the chance to run an engineering firm that eschews experienced engineers for fresh college grads.

Good Luck with that.

[Dan_Callahan]

Pine Valley

[Garland Bayley]

Pine Valley

Follow on courses to compare to?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

How much input does "gentle" Ben actually contribute to C&C.  From what I have heard, and reading all the tea leaves, I suspect that it is not enough to be part of any "Big 4."  Have I been misinformed?

As a member of a course designed by Crenshaw, I would whole heartedly disagree.  It is far better than anything else I have seen in Texas and Coore consulted supposedly on one green.

I don't disagree with Whitten's list.  I think he thought it out before writing it.

[Anthony_Nysse]

How much input does "gentle" Ben actually contribute to C&C.  From what I have heard, and reading all the tea leaves, I suspect that it is not enough to be part of any "Big 4."  Have I been misinformed?

As a member of a course designed by Crenshaw, I would whole heartedly disagree.  It is far better than anything else I have seen in Texas and Coore consulted supposedly on one green.

I don't disagree with Whitten's list.  I think he thought it out before writing it.

He was very involved and made numerous site visits during my 2 summers at Friars Head. He certainly deserves the credit he gets.

[DMoriarty]

Pine Valley

This example cuts both ways.  On the design end, Crump had the help of Harry Colt (and perhaps others.)  On the engineering/construction end, the Pine Valley project went on for a over half a decade and still wasn't finished by the time of Crump's unfortunate death.

[Joe Hancock]

Garland,

Mike Devries and Kingsley.....many would argue it's his best course, but not for lack of effort on other projects. The Mines golf course had equal thought and effort, but, as a public course and a disjointed property, required restraint and a mind on making it work in all ways possible. Greywalls is very good, but it was a difficult property. By all accounts, it's a homerun. You see my point.

I think you're being a a bit myopic with your assumption, as many who got started in the last decade haven't had much for new golf courses, let alone properties to work with the likes that TD and C&C have had.

Hope you're well,

Joe

[Mike_Young]

I think Ron Whitten has it right and I don't feel anyone should feel slighted.  That doesn't mean I haven't seen excellent work from others but that has always been the case in all lines of work.  It seems to always be the "fans" that want these list.  If an architect has a passion for what he does and stays in the business he must be doing something right whether he is getting national press or not.  I can show you several frustrated architects right now because they feel their success is based on national acclaim.  I just don't think anyone can go looking for that....it just has to happen...and if it doesn't and the architect is happy and loves his job then great.  
Now, what intrigues me with "fans" is how they can grab hold of a guy who has done one or two redos or one or two designs (maybe even under another architect )and just rave about the guy over some really good guys that have done 15 or 20 courses.  I know several very good competitors in my area that most of you have never heard from.  Not to say  there are bad architects with 30-40-50 courses but in most cases on equivalent land the experience will prevail.  And often  with the lesser experienced fellow, it is hidden from the "fan" because it was on the job in the form of extremely experienced shapers and finishers guiding the architect thru the tight spots.  I don't begrudge the big four being recognized by Whitten at all.  In fact, I'm still not sure the average golfer recognizes any ODG name other than Ross and maybe McKenzie.  He might know of Pete Dye and probably confuses Robert Trent Jones with Robert Tyre Jones....so four is a lot for a specific period....

[Tom_Doak]

In fact, I'm still not sure the average golfer recognizes any ODG name other than Ross and maybe McKenzie.  He might know of Pete Dye and probably confuses Robert Trent Jones with Robert Tyre Jones....so four is a lot for a specific period....

I would agree with that.  In a business as small as golf course architecture, when has there even been room for more than three or four guys at the top of the profession?  The Big 10 is a football conference, not a group of architects.

That's not to say that there are not a lot of guys out there doing great work.  There is an enormous wealth of talent out there today, and not enough projects for all of them, and we all benefit from having some of that young energy helping to build our courses.  But, to look back, even a guy as talented as Tom Simpson or George Thomas was never one of the "big 4" back in the Golden Age.  Ross and Tillinghast and MacKenzie and Raynor got WAY more work than they did.  That is the nature of the business.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Kyle Phillips - Big portfolio of courses including Kingsbarn which is Top 100 world. His restoration work especially at Cal Club, Incline Village, Menlo and RTJ are very well done.

What is the status of Menlo...has it opened yet?