Dye in London?

[Adam Lawrence]

Joel - I said in reply #2 that I thought it would be a success if, and it's a big if, they can get planning consent. A large proportion of British golfers - probably far more than play links golf - really like this kind of American style course.

[Joey Chase]

Mr. Stewart is quite dismissive, why?  There would almost certainly be interest in a Dye course in England, albeit a novelty.  I agree with Adam Lawrence that it would likely be a success.  Although there are a number of American style courses in the U.K., there aren't any in the style of Pete Dye (Whether it is Pete or Perry doing the project).  

[Jon Wiggett]

Mr. Stewart is quite dismissive, why?  There would almost certainly be interest in a Dye course in England, albeit a novelty.  I agree with Adam Lawrence that it would likely be a success.  Although there are a number of American style courses in the U.K., there aren't any in the style of Pete Dye (Whether it is Pete or Perry doing the project).  

Whilst it is true that there are many who enjoy American style courses I doubt that the vast majority of UK golfers have heard of Pete Dye. If it is in the right location, with the right marketing aimed at the right market at the right price then it will succeed. A lot of rights to get but very possible. The secret to the island green as a marketing tool will be if the target market is a once in a blue moon golfer then make it real hard but if they want the regular return player make it easy.

Jon

[Joey Chase]

Mr. Stewart is quite dismissive, why?  There would almost certainly be interest in a Dye course in England, albeit a novelty.  I agree with Adam Lawrence that it would likely be a success.  Although there are a number of American style courses in the U.K., there aren't any in the style of Pete Dye (Whether it is Pete or Perry doing the project).  

Whilst it is true that there are many who enjoy American style courses I doubt that the vast majority of UK golfers have heard of Pete Dye. If it is in the right location, with the right marketing aimed at the right market at the right price then it will succeed. A lot of rights to get but very possible. The secret to the island green as a marketing tool will be if the target market is a once in a blue moon golfer then make it real hard but if they want the regular return player make it easy.

Jon

I couldn't agree more.  It may not be the type of course I would seek out while playing in the U.K. but I do imagine there are a good number of players that have heard of Pete Dye.  It does seem a bit shtick to add the island green.

[Tom_Doak]

How are the other "American style" courses in the vicinity of London -- The Oxfordshire, East Susex National, London Golf Club -- doing as businesses?

[Adam Lawrence]

London Club OK, I'd say; I suspect the others are struggling. But they aren't really that comparable - Edgware genuinely would serve the London market, while Thame and Uckfield don't. Better comparisons would be the Grove, the Shire, Brocket Hall....

[David_Tepper]

The guess is that, since the Players Championship from TPC Sawgrass has been broadcast on TV into the UK for at least 10-15 years or more., Pete Dye is likely better known in the UK that just about any other living American GCA. Whether his name is well known enough to drive the commercial success of this project another question.

[Randy Thompson]

A Little less then 15 years ago, I was involved with a potential project with a longtime Pete Dye associate. Pete agreed to lend his name to the Project and review a few plans and make a few comments. He made it perfectly clear, this was to be a deal similar to what he does for his sons at times and in no way shape or form would he make a visit. The Project was in Cancun and the only time he worked out of the country was in the Dominican where he has a second home and a special love for that country. He hates traveling overseas but he has a big heart and like to help out family (alice makes him do it) and people that have been loyal to him and so he is willing to return the favor and allows the marketing people to try mislead the public if that what it takes to get the contract signed. My Conclusión---fat chance he will ever make a visit and his involvement will be a perception not a reality!
Oh by the way, the contract got signed, a week later the owner died, things went into letigation, a new developer rep got involved through the son of the owner and Greg Norman was hired and they eventually designed the course which today is Isla Mujeres! You win some and you lose some!

[Tom Kelly]

I am pretty confident in saying that more UK golfers will know of Pete Dye than of the likes of Donald Ross, Tilinghast, Hugh Allison, Herbert Fowler, Tom Simpson, Raynor or C.B. Macdonald. Only really Mackenzie, Colt, Braid, Old Tom and a few other local architects (Tom Williamson in the midlands for example) are known to most golfers in the UK. Most don't know or care who designed their course. I'd be confident in betting that 80-90% of the members of the course I grew up and only recently left wouldn't know who designed the course they play on today.

Pete Dye's name whether involved or not will be a great draw, mainly for his work at Sawgrass which is probably as famous over here as any major venue in the US bar Augusta. And as Adam has stated the Menai-Davis family run a successful golf course business at The Shire so will no doubt know how to get the most from the new course. Being in Egdware it will even be accessible in theory via the tube so the potential catchment area is huge. I'd be hugely surprised if it wasn't a success.

[Rich Goodale]

Typical press release not saying very much. Will be interesting to see if this really gets built. Seve also designed Westerwood on Scotland.

Jon

Vis a vis Westerwood, how true, John, and how sad.  Possibly the worst course I have ever played (and I am so stupid that I played it twice!).

[Jon Wiggett]

Typical press release not saying very much. Will be interesting to see if this really gets built. Seve also designed Westerwood on Scotland.

Jon

Vis a vis Westerwood, how true, John, and how sad.  Possibly the worst course I have ever played (and I am so stupid that I played it twice!).

Rich,

you obviously never played the opening version of the Brabazon at the Belfry which was just dire. This was then perfectly complimented by the equally appalling Derby course.

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Typical press release not saying very much. Will be interesting to see if this really gets built. Seve also designed Westerwood on Scotland.

Jon

Vis a vis Westerwood, how true, John, and how sad.  Possibly the worst course I have ever played (and I am so stupid that I played it twice!).

Rich,

you obviously never played the opening version of the Brabazon at the Belfry which was just dire. This was then perfectly complimented by the equally appalling Derby course.

Jon

You are correct, John!  That being said, from the comfort of my TV Room I always thought that the driveable 10th(?) on the Brabazon(?) was (is?) a great risk/reward "par" 4, for the pros, at least.  Can't remember any comparably goofy but great hole at Westerwood.

Rich

PS--did Thomas design the Belfry courses too?  Can't remember, don't really care, come to think of it......

rfg

[Jon Wiggett]

Typical press release not saying very much. Will be interesting to see if this really gets built. Seve also designed Westerwood on Scotland.

Jon

Vis a vis Westerwood, how true, John, and how sad.  Possibly the worst course I have ever played (and I am so stupid that I played it twice!).

Rich,

you obviously never played the opening version of the Brabazon at the Belfry which was just dire. This was then perfectly complimented by the equally appalling Derby course.

Jon

You are correct, John!  That being said, from the comfort of my TV Room I always thought that the driveable 10th(?) on the Brabazon(?) was (is?) a great risk/reward "par" 4, for the pros, at least.  Can't remember any comparably goofy but great hole at Westerwood.

Rich

PS--did Thomas design the Belfry courses too?  Can't remember, don't really care, come to think of it......

rfg

Rich,

yes the 10th was the only really good hole on the course. I remember saying in another thread that playing the same hole 18 times would be awful however in the case of the early Brabazon doing this with the 10th would have been far preferable than playing the other 17 once. Yes, Thomas was involved with Peter Allis as the name. I am not sure the course was designed but rather ill conceived.

Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

Is this the same development?


https://www.ftbchambers.co.uk/news/planning-permission-granted-new-golf-course-green-belt-barnet-london

[Adam Lawrence]

yes