Dye in London?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Menai-Davis family, who opened The Shire London in Barnet in 2007 featuring Britain's only Seve Ballesteros course, are behind the application.



http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/11/05/sports/golf/05reuters-golf-london.html?ref=golf

[Jon Wiggett]

Typical press release not saying very much. Will be interesting to see if this really gets built. Seve also designed Westerwood on Scotland.

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

Westerwood was a Dave Thomas course with Seve's name on it (we can debate how much of a role he played at the Shire, but it was his own firm that did the design).

Long, long way to go with the Dye course. There is severe local opposition - of the public comments submitted to the local council's planning portal so far, all but one are objections. It is, in part, a landfill project - the planning app states that around 250k cu m of landfill will be imported to the site - and that is one of the key sources of objection. The landowner is All Souls College, Oxford, which has apparently made a number of attempts to develop the site over many years. Several local golf clubs have registered opposition.

The Menai Davis family has been working on this project for some years. If it happens, I'd bet on it being a success - the landfill will defray the cost of construction and they've proved at the Shire that they know how to operate effectively. But planning will be a hard road.

[Matt Kardash]

The say the company name is Dye Designs. Isn't that the name of Perry Dye's firm?

[Adam Lawrence]

The say the company name is Dye Designs. Isn't that the name of Perry Dye's firm?

Correct. Is Perry's project.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Adam

Can you post a link to the council's objections please? I'd be very interested to read what the gist of the moans are.

[Adam Lawrence]

Here's the planning portal link. Unfortunately the text of the public comments does not seem to have been uploaded yet; only the fact of their existence.

http://acolaidpublic.barnet.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=makeComment&keyVal=_BARNE_DCAPR_289745

[Robin_Hiseman]

Thanks Adam

One can at least view the proposed layout and associated documents.  Archetypal 'Dye' motifs abound.

[Joel_Stewart]

Archetypal 'Dye' motifs abound.

Who ever is doing the PR is stuck in a time warp from the 1990's.  They are still trying to sell Dye as the greatest architect and the 17th at TPC as attractive.  

I hope Brian and Mark and others in the UK will comment as to the merits of this course and if the UK market will accept and support this course?

This is just more evidence on why I don't drink the Pete Dye koolaid.  Here is a guy who professes his love for the classics, Donald Ross and his beloved Seminole yet builds modern travesties.  His best course was built in the 1960's at The Golf Club and then he ran for the money with island greens and hideous unnatural mounding.

End of rant.

[Jon Wiggett]

Westerwood was a Dave Thomas course with Seve's name on it (we can debate how much of a role he played at the Shire, but it was his own firm that did the design).

But it is interesting that only Seve is mentioned not Thomas. I have played Westerwood and would say it had some similarities with Pont Royal (in france) which I really enjoyed and the remodel of Crans-Montana (in Switzerland) which is just awful. I suspect he had some input but probably not a huge amount.

Jon

[Robin_Hiseman]

Westerwood was a Dave Thomas course with Seve's name on it (we can debate how much of a role he played at the Shire, but it was his own firm that did the design).

But it is interesting that only Seve is mentioned not Thomas. I have played Westerwood and would say it had some similarities with Pont Royal (in france) which I really enjoyed and the remodel of Crans-Montana (in Switzerland) which is just awful. I suspect he had some input but probably not a huge amount.

Jon

Jon

Trust me. Westerwood is a Dave Thomas course.

[Jon Wiggett]

Westerwood was a Dave Thomas course with Seve's name on it (we can debate how much of a role he played at the Shire, but it was his own firm that did the design).

But it is interesting that only Seve is mentioned not Thomas. I have played Westerwood and would say it had some similarities with Pont Royal (in france) which I really enjoyed and the remodel of Crans-Montana (in Switzerland) which is just awful. I suspect he had some input but probably not a huge amount.

Jon

Jon

Trust me. Westerwood is a Dave Thomas course.

I think that is what I just said Robin

[Tom Kelly]

No comments on the proposed 7th hole yet?

[Mark Saltzman]

The say the company name is Dye Designs. Isn't that the name of Perry Dye's firm?

Correct. Is Perry's project.

Why do they keep referencing Pete's work in the article?

[Ben Stephens]

The say the company name is Dye Designs. Isn't that the name of Perry Dye's firm?

Correct. Is Perry's project.

Why do they keep referencing Pete's work in the article?

From an accurate source Pete Dye is to be involved in some aspects of the work. I assume that Dye designs will do most of the detail and construction work.

From the layout plans I can't help feeling that it is a repetitive Dye golf course design using 'classic' Dye template holes. The 16th is like the 16th at PGA West, the 17th is similar to Crooked Stick and 9/18 is similar to Sawgrass (the other way round). 7 is a iconic Dye island green.

I just feel a bit disappointed as I hoped it would be something different. I do agree that the Golf Club in Ohio is probably Dye's best course which needed little earthworks movement.    

[Adam Lawrence]

The say the company name is Dye Designs. Isn't that the name of Perry Dye's firm?

Correct. Is Perry's project.

Why do they keep referencing Pete's work in the article?

I'm sure if you think very hard you can figure out the answer to that question...

[Matt Kardash]

Archetypal 'Dye' motifs abound.

Who ever is doing the PR is stuck in a time warp from the 1990's.  They are still trying to sell Dye as the greatest architect and the 17th at TPC as attractive.  

I hope Brian and Mark and others in the UK will comment as to the merits of this course and if the UK market will accept and support this course?

This is just more evidence on why I don't drink the Pete Dye koolaid.  Here is a guy who professes his love for the classics, Donald Ross and his beloved Seminole yet builds modern travesties.  His best course was built in the 1960's at The Golf Club and then he ran for the money with island greens and hideous unnatural mounding.

End of rant.

This isn't a Pete Dye course. It is Perry Dye. Pete Dye built an island green at Sawgrass and was forced to build a second at PGA West. He doesn't do island greens anymore. Dye Designs = Perry Dye.

[Ross Harmon]

Think about this... does Perry want to just build the same "island" green over and over again, or do developers and investors regularly ask for it as it's the most recognizable hole in golf?

I'm willing to bet it's the latter. Give us the island green and we'll let you do what you want on the other 17 holes.  

[Matt Vandelac]

This is one confusing thread.  First off how is Joel Stewart able to speak on a subject he knows know nothing about?
Secondly, Pete Dye is not Dye Designs.
Gaining a fraction knowledge of what Pete Dye has brought to golf course development before you 'rant' would be appreciated.
Glad you're done.

[Joel_Stewart]

This is one confusing thread.  First off how is Joel Stewart able to speak on a subject he knows know nothing about?
Secondly, Pete Dye is not Dye Designs.
Gaining a fraction knowledge of what Pete Dye has brought to golf course development before you 'rant' would be appreciated.
Glad you're done.

Enlighten us on what you know?

I'm one of the few people on this site to have met Pete Dye and I've been around long enough to play many of his courses.

The press release says the following;

""The course will feature a Dye-signature island green similar to the famous 17th at TPC Sawgrass," the company said in a news release on Tuesday.

"Dye-designed courses have hosted over 50 championships worldwide and our team is looking forward to creating our first course in the United Kingdom."

The firm is named after celebrated American golf course architect Pete Dye.""

From this you can surmise, Pete Dye is Dye Designs and Pete himself will be involved.  My guess is he will mail it in like many of the Dye Designs since nobody is going to walk across the street to play a Perry Dye golf course.

Perhaps you're young and naive to believe otherwise.

[Matt Kardash]

This is one confusing thread.  First off how is Joel Stewart able to speak on a subject he knows know nothing about?
Secondly, Pete Dye is not Dye Designs.
Gaining a fraction knowledge of what Pete Dye has brought to golf course development before you 'rant' would be appreciated.
Glad you're done.

Enlighten us on what you know?

I'm one of the few people on this site to have met Pete Dye and I've been around long enough to play many of his courses.

The press release says the following;

""The course will feature a Dye-signature island green similar to the famous 17th at TPC Sawgrass," the company said in a news release on Tuesday.

"Dye-designed courses have hosted over 50 championships worldwide and our team is looking forward to creating our first course in the United Kingdom."

The firm is named after celebrated American golf course architect Pete Dye.""

From this you can surmise, Pete Dye is Dye Designs and Pete himself will be involved.  My guess is he will mail it in like many of the Dye Designs since nobody is going to walk across the street to play a Perry Dye golf course.

Perhaps you're young and naive to believe otherwise.

Joel, Dye Designs is Perry Dye's firm. There is no debate here. Look a the wording, they say Dye designs is named after Pete Dye. It's tricky wordplay. It's a Perry Dye course. His dad might go see it once, and will probably be there when it opens for publicity. He is very supportive of his sons and will use his name to help them out.

[Ross Harmon]

Another thing to think about...

Pete will be 88 next month, he'll turn 90 (or, as he'll say - halfway to 180) in 2015 when construction is scheduled to begin. How many trips across the pond do you think he'll want to make at that age?

As much is as made of Pete's work in the dirt, he's also quite skilled at providing his input via topos and photos.

[Tom_Doak]

As much is as made of Pete's work in the dirt, he's also quite skilled at providing his input via topos and photos.

Really?  Pete Dye looks at dirt photos and makes suggestions?

It is hard for me to believe he has gone to that.

Dye Designs and Pete Dye are two different entities.  Generally, Perry will pay his dad to make a visit for a couple of days, so that the course can be legitimately advertised as Pete's work ... but that is a far cry from the way Pete built all the courses for which he's famous.  Most of those projects, he and Alice rented a home nearby, and Pete was out on site 5-6 days a week.

Still, Mr. Dye is almost 90, and he sure doesn't have to answer to any of us.  He can be as involved or as uninvolved as he pleases.  I'm just happy to hear he is still keeping busy and working, because I know it's what gets him up every day.

P.S. to Joel:  The last six guys who have posted on this thread have spent WAY MORE TIME with Pete Dye than you have.  Three or four of us have worked for him on several different projects.

[Ross Harmon]

As much is as made of Pete's work in the dirt, he's also quite skilled at providing his input via topos and photos.

Really?  Pete Dye looks at dirt photos and makes suggestions?

It is hard for me to believe he has gone to that.

Tom - thanks for chiming in, of course this is not Pete's preferred method of working - at any age.

I probably should have chosen my words better and said "certainly capable of" instead of "quite skilled at".

As you know, he always has a large stack of topos and other materials on his dining room table to review when he's at home.  

[Joel_Stewart]

  Generally, Perry will pay his dad to make a visit for a couple of days, so that the course can be legitimately advertised as Pete's work ...

I know it's Perrys firm and I think that's what is bothering me among other things.  It's a sad state when you have to live off your fathers name but then the Jones brothers did it for years as well.  Thank god Ross and Tillinghast didn't have sons that went into the business.

The other thing that smells is bringing this type of American architecture to the UK.  It's not something that we should be proud of.  I'm still waiting for some of the UK participants to say if there is a market for this and will it be successful?