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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2013, 07:51:04 AM »
Matthew,

There is some evidence that a wife who plays golf both provides a semi frequent playing partner, AND is more tolerant of her hubby playing at other times.  So, we got that going for us.....but to be honest, I wonder how much public perception and actual experience has varied over the years.  Doing the dishes last night, I reminded my step son that my grandfather always did the dishes for my grandmother.  They were married for their entire lives, and got along.  Somehow, I gather that the point is those old guys figured the same thing out, and had different types of time pressure when it came to work and family.  I doubt we have it any differently than they do, or at least not much differently, so that ain't an excuse.

Also, I believe this ties into the other thread on Tee It Forward, although there are some perception issues to overcome.  Specifically, most males, even though they never would consider the back tees for play, somehow associate a good course with back tee yardage over 7000, and just like the ideas that those tees are back there.  But nine holes is okay, but only if there are another nine to play, i.e., its an 18 hole "championship" course.

Always hated that term, and we have discussed what terms might have been substituted to have eased marketing all these years. Somehow revamping courses with fewer (although not none) bunkers, flatter greens and more tees, pushed forward is probably the way to go.  As we have all noted those championship courses are beyond fun to play.

No doubt there are more competing sports/activities/hobbies than ever.  I wonder if the whole getting away from nature (i.e., more video games, sunburn concerns, etc.) isn't the real problem golf faces.  Hey, at least we rarely suffer concussions!

Golf is in a strong position to compete, IMHO, it just needs to figure out better marketing, rather than stand and answer the phone.  (Yes, I know tee time services are out there, so there is some progress)

Thomas,

Land is still in great supply.  In most areas, water, not so much, at least perception wise, and perception is reality.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2013, 07:52:04 AM »

 I'm not about to stop her from doing so and visa versa. Time we stopped blaming others for our own inability to seize the day. Ultimately, we've all got choices.          

Well said.  It's all about trade-offs, but golf, it seems, has become such an easy target as the easiest thing to trade off?  I'm in the same age range as well and I see it with my friends too.  They take up other hobbies, but not seemingly because they necessarily want to.  Is it the time?  The money?  

I think the overall time it takes to play golf is a deterrent to some to take up the game.  But the epidemic of slow play that we all hear about on tour, AJGA, etc. is not stopping people from playing.  But maybe it's the new slow play problems that are preventing those that used to play from playing more.  

Cost is a huge factor as well but I feel like, for whatever reason, country clubs face a huge perception issue nowadays as well.  Costs are down and many clubs are more accessible, but memberships are still waning.  So why is that?  It seems like for many people, there is just something about the idea of a golf club that is holding them back

Mike Wagner

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2013, 09:27:50 AM »
You wouldn't get too many competent doctors if you left everyone to their own devices.


Garland,

Would you mind explaining this please?  I think it's quite the opposite.

Andrew Buck

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2013, 10:16:20 AM »

 I'm not about to stop her from doing so and visa versa. Time we stopped blaming others for our own inability to seize the day. Ultimately, we've all got choices.          

Well said.  It's all about trade-offs, but golf, it seems, has become such an easy target as the easiest thing to trade off?  I'm in the same age range as well and I see it with my friends too.  They take up other hobbies, but not seemingly because they necessarily want to.  Is it the time?  The money?  

I think the overall time it takes to play golf is a deterrent to some to take up the game.  But the epidemic of slow play that we all hear about on tour, AJGA, etc. is not stopping people from playing.  But maybe it's the new slow play problems that are preventing those that used to play from playing more.  

Cost is a huge factor as well but I feel like, for whatever reason, country clubs face a huge perception issue nowadays as well.  Costs are down and many clubs are more accessible, but memberships are still waning.  So why is that?  It seems like for many people, there is just something about the idea of a golf club that is holding them back

I really think we have a couple different issues, but in reality *most* of the issue with the "golf business" is simply a supply issue.  While the number of "golfers" is clearly down from the height of the Tiger Boom, a quick search shows number of golfers is up about 17% from 1990, and double that from 1984.  The problem is rounds are down (for multiple reasons) and too many courses have been added.  

While there certainly are some difficulties in the economy, and that has impacted people, it is really hard to find data that shows people were much better off, other than for brief periods at any point in the last 100 years.  The "income gap" has grown, and perhaps the benefit has been realized heavier at the top than the bottom, but still every quintile has grown, albeit some slowly.  Cost is certainly a factor, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN, but there I don't see a huge shortage of affordable options as a reason golf may not be growing.  I think there are several reasons that Country Clubs that have a long stable history are hurting now, and overall participation may slide:

-  Societal changes around kids activities.  Kids activities are much more organized, even at a young age, than they were 30 years ago.  Often families with multiple kids have kids in different activities that require them to each drive kids around to multiple things.  I could argue this is not a good thing, but it certainly is real.
-  Societal changes around the way kids "get around" and play in non-organized activities.  It was not uncommon for kids 5 and up to simply play in the neighborhood unsupervised all day 30 years ago, walk or bike to their little league game on their own, etc.  That just isn't the case today.
-  Societal changes around drinking and driving.  Don't get me wrong, people still do it, but not at the same percentage and it certainly impacts the number of people who stick around spending money on drinks at clubs.
-  Societal changes on expectations of fathers.  Now, the family revolving around kids *may* have swung to far, but I'm not sure the previous generations had it perfect either.  I know my dad, and about 25 of his friends, all with young kids never missed a Wednesday, Saturday or Sunday of golf.  That is a lot of time away from your kids.  I don't know of any of our members with younger kids who play that regularly and religiously.
-  Shift in ways to spend "disposable income".  College has increased, and the expectation to pay for kids has increased with it.  We don't just *NEED* cell phones, we need cell phones that come with data plans that have a monthly cost which in a year will exceed the cost of annual passes at many publics.  We need to have granite countertops in our "starter" home, and the big SUV for our one child.  
-  And of course, supply.  Quite simply we have options and they need to compete.

Chris, I agree with you that a Country Club can carry a "stigma" to many non club golfers.  People assume they are elitist, and in fairness some Club players, even at small modest clubs, do portray that attitude.  However, I think the biggest hurdle for most at this point is the cost when other options exist.  Joining a country club vs getting the annual pass at the reasonably decent semi-private down the street doesn't just come with the 3X or more dues, it also comes with mini charges for things (fireworks assessment, much more expensive member guest, etc).  In addition, most already have friends who golf, so you don't have to convince one guy that it's worth 3X, you have to convince a group of guys that like to play together.    

Phil Lipper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2013, 10:39:18 AM »
I think is tough to overstate the impact that pace of play has on the popularity of the game. In NJ where I live if you have to play at a county owned course your looking at a 5 hour round of golf and thats the best part of the experience. People that play at the county courses tell me that they invest an hour of their week every week in working the phone system to get a weekend tee time before noon. I'm an extremely avid golfer and if I wasnt fortunate enough to be a member of a club I'm not sure if I would play regulary.

Mike_Young

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2013, 11:29:27 AM »
SOMEWHERE NUMBERS ARE LYING TO THE INDUSTRY.

We are told we have approx 16000 exisiting courses and we have 480 million rounds.  That equates to 30,000 rounds per course on average. That should work BUT those numbers are pure BS from NGF....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2013, 12:14:05 PM »
Very possibly the figures are wrong but, regardless, it's not necessarily the clubs which have higher numbers of rounds being played which are succeeding. Does anyone that's visited an isolated, empty course in Scotland really need any more evidence that a healthy future lies in the past? If you can keep the books in the black with 100 members pay £400 per year and, say, 2,000 visitors paying £20 for the day, why on earth would you fork out on anything which, at best, is only going to make you money when times are good?

I refer anyone that wants to listen to the many points Tom Doak has been making for as long as I know about this topic.

  
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2013, 01:05:41 PM »
I think is tough to overstate the impact that pace of play has on the popularity of the game.

With courses becoming lengthier and pace of play declining, a full round of golf within the time frames many of us knew from decades gone by has extended the amount of time that folks with existing family/work etc commitments need to play 18-holes and then chill out with friends afterwards. Once you're retired however, the perspective may change.

As to the economic effect, it is a great shame that the economy has been in poor shape for some time and that this is likely to continue, and I sympathise with anyone in a difficult situation, but the economy has gone up and down numerous times over the centuries that golf has been played and will no doubt continue to do so.

In places where it's usually hot and dry, and even in more temperate climates in summer, water availability surely has to be a highly important factor. Water abstraction for drinking, farming, food etc is surely going to receive priority over abstraction for golf, and, let's be a bit controversial here, do the fairways and the rough really need to be irrigated? There are plenty of dry, hot places where it's only the greens that receive water, and then not too much. Just as an example, and not picking on one place to target or criticise, let's recall the origins of theTexas wedge

All the best.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2013, 04:30:53 PM »
Thomas,

I live in Southern California, where we get absolutely NO rain from May till October and temperatures range from 70-90 degrees. Do you really think we could go without irrigation for that long a period and still maintain grass?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2013, 05:05:39 PM »
SOMEWHERE NUMBERS ARE LYING TO THE INDUSTRY.

We are told we have approx 16000 exisiting courses and we have 480 million rounds.  That equates to 30,000 rounds per course on average. That should work BUT those numbers are pure BS from NGF....

Actually, we are closer to 15K courses, no.  We cracked the barrier going the wrong direction, though.

Over the years, it has been well known that the golf courses aren't as good at tracking golfers as many other industries are at tracking their customers.  While they MAY know how many receipts are in the cash register (even those $0 comps) very few seem to know if they are 9 or 18, weekday or weekend, etc.  

We saw a business study for one course where they claimed 60% cart rentals on 45K rounds, which should have been about 14,000 rentals, but cash receipts totaled less than half that.  Bad records or lots of free cart use!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2013, 05:31:05 PM »
Thomas,
I live in Southern California, where we get absolutely NO rain from May till October and temperatures range from 70-90 degrees. Do you really think we could go without irrigation for that long a period and still maintain grass?
Pete, out of curiosity I be interested to know what SoCal golfers did from May to October in the many decades before irrigated fairways and rough? Did they cease playing golf entirely in their home region or did they carry on playing under less visually attractive circumstances and adopt their golf games accordingly?
All the best

Pete Lavallee

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2013, 05:54:24 PM »
Thomas,

They played on dirt fairways with oiled sand greens; must have been great fun!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2013, 06:10:06 PM »
Thomas,
They played on dirt fairways with oiled sand greens; must have been great fun!
Pete, I've played on dirt fairways and oiled sand greens. Admittedly not the most visually attractive form of the game, but probably better than not playing at all, and I learnt to play some new shots!
Interesting article on golf and water in this months Golf Digest.
All the best.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2013, 09:55:50 AM »
I'll add one more thing that I believe has had a slight impact on both "Clubs" and golf.

With each generation, fewer people return from college to begin their career near where they were raised.  I think joining a club earlier in life, is much easier for a variety of reasons if its' the club you grew up at.  

In addition, when the young professional leaves to work in a different city, not only do they likely have competing social priorities, they also are probably being asked to pay for golf for the first time in their life (if they grew up with a family membership, working in the industry, or playing competitively), and there is a shock associated with that.  By the time that shock wears off and priorities begin to shift back to golf, kids are right around the corner.    

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2013, 10:04:00 AM »
You make a good point.  It was definitely a shock going from working at a course throughout college/grad school and not having to pay for anything to seeing the cost of dues, etc.  But the flip side, is that it became my primary social outlet especially when I moved to a new town.  It helped expand my social network outside of just work too

Andrew Buck

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2013, 10:11:22 AM »
You make a good point.  It was definitely a shock going from working at a course throughout college/grad school and not having to pay for anything to seeing the cost of dues, etc.  But the flip side, is that it became my primary social outlet especially when I moved to a new town.  It helped expand my social network outside of just work too

I agree with your point, and joining a club would be a primary social outlet for my family should we move.  

I think it's a harder sell for your typical 22 - 25 year old single guy, depending on the location.  If they move to a major metro business hub, NYC, SF, Chicago, Clubs are very expensive and far from the best night life areas where they likely live.  

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2013, 11:09:06 AM »
Oh, it totally depends on the market.  My working career has taken me to such exciting metropolis as Dayton OH, Bentonville AR and Battle Creek MI.  Golf is about as exciting as it gets in these towns  ;D

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2013, 12:59:32 PM »
You wouldn't get too many competent doctors if you left everyone to their own devices.


Garland,

Would you mind explaining this please?  I think it's quite the opposite.

The thread is about the informed ideas on this website not being acceptable to the general public, thereby could be the end of golf if implemented. My take is that you don't just let people make their own conclusion, you engage in education. An example that is going on now is an effort by the USGA and others about brown is the new green.

In the history of the world, if you left everyone to their own devices, you ended up with witch doctors. If you educate and disseminate information and make it a standard, you get highly educated and competent doctors produced by fine educational institutions.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2013, 01:06:36 PM »
I for one feel that given the opportunity, the narrow prevailing attitude expressed on here would in fact kill the game quicker than what is currently happening


Perhaps you don't understand the narrow prevailing attitude expressed on here. That's almost certainly true, given that it doesn't actually exist, imho.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2013, 02:37:18 PM »
My simple (simplistic?) view is that golf, like the economy, went through a big boom period.  The economy fell, and so did golf.  Both have to work off the excesses.  My own sense is that golf has a long way to go before it turns things around.  Sad to say, the economy probably does, too.      





Grant Saunders

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Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2013, 05:19:13 PM »
You wouldn't get too many competent doctors if you left everyone to their own devices.


Garland,

Would you mind explaining this please?  I think it's quite the opposite.

The thread is about the informed ideas on this website not being acceptable to the general public, thereby could be the end of golf if implemented. My take is that you don't just let people make their own conclusion, you engage in education. An example that is going on now is an effort by the USGA and others about brown is the new green.


Garland

Thanks for actually addressing the question that was posed at the start of the thread. Wile there have been some very interesting points raised, most of them have been based around perceived ideas on the problems facing golf in general.

Regarding your comment above, I'm not sure I agree with the approach you are advocating. Removing or reducing peoples ability to reach their own conclusions or opinions seems almost like brainwashing on some level.

Things like acupuncture and herbal medicines that once seemed like "witch doctoring" are now common place and proven to have real benefits to those using them. Fortunately, they were not simply dismissed by people who saw it as being out of step with their views.

Golf Club Atlas is a cool place to hang out and share thoughts with like minded souls. I just feel that a lot of posters need to perhaps take a step back and view it as the niche it really is. Theres a lot of passion in some of the writings but which is great but there are times when it crosses into zealotry. Lets not completely dismiss the views of the rest of the golfing population but rather respect the right for them to look at things differently because at the end of the day, most of the things talked about on here are simply opinion and not fact. Many posters on here (myself included) got pretty worn down and sick of hearing the ultra narrow view points of Melvyn. He was fully entitled to his views and stood as a minority within a minority but his continual lecturing and picking fights didnt serve his message well. GCA is a minority in the golfing world and we dont wont to be that annoying preaching voice beating everyone down with our message.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2013, 06:58:49 PM »
...
Regarding your comment above, I'm not sure I agree with the approach you are advocating. Removing or reducing peoples ability to reach their own conclusions or opinions seems almost like brainwashing on some level.
...

It's not brainwashing. It's brain rebooting. (Or as I alluded to above, education.)

E.g., They have already been brain washed to think golf courses should be hard so golf courses should incorporate trees. I spoke about removing some trees at a club meeting. First people to approach me afterwards, husband and wife handicaps 28 and 31. "Golf is not supposed to be easy!"
 ::)

They have been brain washed to think golf courses should be verdantly green.

You get the idea.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2013, 10:52:58 AM »
You wouldn't get too many competent doctors if you left everyone to their own devices.


Garland,

Would you mind explaining this please?  I think it's quite the opposite.

The thread is about the informed ideas on this website not being acceptable to the general public, thereby could be the end of golf if implemented. My take is that you don't just let people make their own conclusion, you engage in education. An example that is going on now is an effort by the USGA and others about brown is the new green.

In the history of the world, if you left everyone to their own devices, you ended up with witch doctors. If you educate and disseminate information and make it a standard, you get highly educated and competent doctors produced by fine educational institutions.


Who's standard - the government?  Or the individuals who actually do the groundbreaking work who were left to their own devices?

Your take is to not let people make their own conclusions....but to engage in education.  Education is great - but your verbiage on why you want it is what scares the shit out of me.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2013, 11:37:14 AM »
Mike,

By standard I mean accepted social norm, as in it is an accepted social norm for children to attend school or be schooled.

Right now it seems most golfers are being educated about golf course architecture by TV commentators and tour golf professionals. That's what scares me. Although, I did enjoy Donald Trump interviewing LPGA players obviously trying to get them to say how wonderful the architecture of Trump National LA was, and all he could elicit was "the scenery is wonderful." :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Future of Golf
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2013, 03:16:06 PM »
Mike,

By standard I mean accepted social norm, as in it is an accepted social norm for children to attend school or be schooled.

Right now it seems most golfers are being educated about golf course architecture by TV commentators and tour golf professionals. That's what scares me. Although, I did enjoy Donald Trump interviewing LPGA players obviously trying to get them to say how wonderful the architecture of Trump National LA was, and all he could elicit was "the scenery is wonderful." :)


GJ,
While the above may be a noble cause there are not many that care to be educated about GCA.  There are too many other things they would wish to learn first plus in the overall scheme of things it is not a large enough subject to attract many.  Money rules the game presently.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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