[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:
In the 50's or in your 50's?  

I'm happy to say......... BOTH

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,

you seem to fail to understand the difference in noise qualities. A golfer playing next to a very busy highway will tune out the constant drone of traffic driving by but if at the top of the backswing some motorist beeps his horn that will be off putting. The basketball player would have a problem if just before he shot the crowd went silent. It is the unexpected nature of the noise that is key.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

I recall a story about Joyce Wethered, the British lady amateur of the 1920's, of whom Bobby Jones is supposed to have said something like "she is the best player, man or women, that I've ever seen play". In some tournament in Norfolk (Sherringham/Cromer?) a steam train passed close-by during her backswing swing. "What train" she is supposed to have replied when asked why she continued with the shot. Or maybe she was just hard of hearing!
All the best

[Michael Felton]

Serious, non-rhetorical question:

Do people believe there is something much more difficult about hitting a golf ball than, say, hitting a baseball, such that quiet is required for the former but not the latter?  NOTE:  This is not a question about whether a golfer expecting quiet will be affected by loud noise; I assume that's the case, but one could also say the same about baseball if the rule were that you had to be quiet during at-bats.  The question instead is about whether golf's rule about quiet is necessary or appropriate for reasons relating to performance, or if it's really just about decorum.  

They are quite different I think. I have heard it said that hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in professional sports (I don't agree, but I've heard it said). However, when you're hitting a baseball, it is reactive. The pitcher pitches the ball and you try to hit it. You can't wait until you feel right to swing. You swing at the time determined by the pitcher. But also think about how the bat must be oriented at impact. If you hit a little high or low on the bat, you're going to be in a spot of bother unless you get lucky, but if the bat is 5° open at impact, and you hit it solidly, it's probably going out of the park. Likewise 5° closed. If your driver is 5° open at impact (assuming it's normally square) you're asking for another ball. Same thing with rotation. The rotation of the baseball bat is irrelevant, but with a golf club it makes a world of difference. Hitting a baseball is an imprecise action. Hitting a golf ball is a precise action and that makes it different IMO.

[Martin Toal]

I didn't see the Tiger vs Rory exhibition, but it was an exhibition, so perhaps different rules apply.

Anyway, each spring when the Phoenix Open is on at the very forgettable TPC Scottsdale, I wonder at the 16th. On the one hand, it is amazing that they managed to turn that utterly boring hole into an event, but on the other hand the crowd mob there really is a display of lowest common denominator beered up vulgarity. I am confident that there will not be a similar hole at a European event anytime soon.

[Garland Bayley]

"Garland,

you seem to fail to understand the difference in noise qualities. A golfer playing next to a very busy highway will tune out the constant drone of traffic driving by but if at the top of the backswing some motorist beeps his horn that will be off putting. The basketball player would have a problem if just before he shot the crowd went silent. It is the unexpected nature of the noise that is key.

Jon"

Jon,

You seem to fail to understand that is exactly what I said in my last post.

[Garland Bayley]

"Garland

Have you ever attended a professional golf tournament or match?"

Yes, and the people with the quiet signs seem to be overzealous people lacking in common sense.

[Garland Bayley]

I recall a story about Joyce Wethered, the British lady amateur of the 1920's, of whom Bobby Jones is supposed to have said something like "she is the best player, man or women, that I've ever seen play". In some tournament in Norfolk (Sherringham/Cromer?) a steam train passed close-by during her backswing swing. "What train" she is supposed to have replied when asked why she continued with the shot. Or maybe she was just hard of hearing!
All the best

And, I am of the opinion that she is a better athlete/competitor/golfer than the goof ball that backs off his shot for bird singing, and that she has every right to beat that person in a noisy golf match.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I recall a story about Joyce Wethered, the British lady amateur of the 1920's, of whom Bobby Jones is supposed to have said something like "she is the best player, man or women, that I've ever seen play". In some tournament in Norfolk (Sherringham/Cromer?) a steam train passed close-by during her backswing swing. "What train" she is supposed to have replied when asked why she continued with the shot. Or maybe she was just hard of hearing!
All the best

And, I am of the opinion that she is a better athlete/competitor/golfer than the goof ball that backs off his shot for bird singing, and that she has every right to beat that person in a noisy golf match.

But, you don't know if he backed off the shot because of the bird singing, or that he just remembered that he forgot to pay his car insurance bill, or that he just figured out that maybe his wife is having an affair or that the endorsement he was about to sign needed to be amended.

I think the better golfers are better able to tune out everything else in their life while they're on the golf course, including distractions on the golf course.  But, I've seen some of the best golfers in the world back off a shot for reasons unknown to the viewing public.

Anybody remember Doug Sanders on the 72nd hole at the British Open over a 3 footer.
I didn't hear any birds singing, did you ?

That's part of the problem with golf, you have too much time to think................ about everything

[Jon Wiggett]

Yes, golfers are too precious.

If a basketball player can make free throws with all the distractions the opposing crowds throw up, then a golfer should be able to play on with crowd noise. Throwing people out of tournament crowd for perceived slights by prima donna golfers is ridiculous.

No, the comparison is not flawed. Put the golfer putting in the basketball arena. I suggest he will know how to tune out the noise just as the basketball player does. Put the basketball player on the line at a relatively quiet golf setting, and unexpectedly click an SLR camera in the middle of his shooting stroke. I expect the results to be similar to clicking during a golf stroke.

Perhaps basketball crowds should be silent during opponents free throws except of course the designated air horn blower.

Garland,

I presume you are retracting your first opinion and now agree with my point of view because otherwise you still don't get it

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

Yes, golfers are too precious.

If a basketball player can make free throws with all the distractions the opposing crowds throw up, then a golfer should be able to play on with crowd noise. Throwing people out of tournament crowd for perceived slights by prima donna golfers is ridiculous.

No, the comparison is not flawed. Put the golfer putting in the basketball arena. I suggest he will know how to tune out the noise just as the basketball player does. Put the basketball player on the line at a relatively quiet golf setting, and unexpectedly click an SLR camera in the middle of his shooting stroke. I expect the results to be similar to clicking during a golf stroke.

Perhaps basketball crowds should be silent during opponents free throws except of course the designated air horn blower.

Garland,

I presume you are retracting your first opinion and now agree with my point of view because otherwise you still don't get it

Jon

No, I don't have a first opinion to retract. I am saying that our opinions of noise effects on basketball players and golfers is the same, and has been the same all along.

[Jon Wiggett]

You see Garland, I knew I was right all along

[Garland Bayley]

...
I do not think you can compare one sport to another. ...

If you were right all along, then how did you end up comparing one sport to another and insisting you were right on your comparison?

[Jon Wiggett]

...
I do not think you can compare one sport to another. ...

If you were right all along, then how did you end up comparing one sport to another and insisting you were right on your comparison?

  oh no, was I wrong No, wait......I didn't compare, I was clearly showing the differences saved by myMuccilike ego   so guess that makes me right and you wrong on what ever this was about


Jon

[Carl Nichols]

Jon-
Your argument depends entirely on the fact that the background/baseline rule in golf is for there to be quiet, and thus deviations from that rule will affect the players. But that doesn't answer whether that baseline/background rule makes any sense.

[Jon Wiggett]

Carl,

to be serious for a moment. Yes, you are correct about a baseline level of noise but as most golfers only play in front of one to three other people even if they all make a noise at the same time it would still be individual, random noise and not the homogenous sound created by a crowd of several hundred+.

There are other games/sports where quiet is expected such as snooker or bowls.

Also the etiquette is that each individual should be quiet should the player wish it not background noise. I find it odd that anyone should be arguing that it is okay to talk while someone is playing a shot if the player wishes for quiet. It seems to be a similar mentality those who thought it was okay to smoke at the dining table whilst others were still eating.

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

Carl,

to be serious for a moment. Yes, you are correct about a baseline level of noise but as most golfers only play in front of one to three other people even if they all make a noise at the same time it would still be individual, random noise and not the homogenous sound created by a crowd of several hundred+.

There are other games/sports where quiet is expected such as snooker or bowls.

Also the etiquette is that each individual should be quiet should the player wish it not background noise. I find it odd that anyone should be arguing that it is okay to talk while someone is playing a shot if the player wishes for quiet. It seems to be a similar mentality those who thought it was okay to smoke at the dining table whilst others were still eating.

Jon

Smoke? Really? Terrible analogy Jon.
The player is immensely rich compared to 99.9% of the spectators paying to watch him. So the player gets all the rights because he is collecting all that money? Are those paying to watch him just suckers with no rights?

When watching TV, I sometimes say hit the putt Furyk. If I attend in person, I shouldn't be able to say that?
When watching TV, I sometimes say hit the shot Keegan. If I attend in person, I shouldn't be able to say that?

[Matthew Lloyd]

Would anyone else like to see more player-created crowd noise in golf?  I'm referring to moments like the Ryder Cup at Medinah when Bubba Watson fired up the crowd for his tee shots.  That was awesome!!!  I would love to see more of this, especially on the opening tee box like that.  The Ryder Cup was certainly a unique circumstance for that, and I'm sure it wouldn't go over well during The Masters, for instance, but I thought that brought a level of excitement and fan engagement that golf could benefit from.  It also helped drown out any knuckleheads trying to make clever comments.

On the whole, I agree with the posters suggesting golfers need to toughen up a little bit.  I understand how and why it's annoying to deal with noise, but I also think that's an occupational hazard so it has to be expected. 

[Garland Bayley]

I would like to see the present Tour medal play tournaments disappear. I would like to see a Major League of Golf with teams playing Ryder Cup style matches as the spectator events. Make it world wide.

[Matthew Lloyd]

I would like to see the present Tour medal play tournaments disappear. I would like to see a Major League of Golf with teams playing Ryder Cup style matches as the spectator events. Make it world wide.

The only events I'd miss are the majors, the Torrey Pines tournament, Riviera, and the Memorial.  Other than that I would totally go for what you're proposing.  Most of the tour events are a complete snooze-fest.

[Jon Wiggett]

Carl,

to be serious for a moment. Yes, you are correct about a baseline level of noise but as most golfers only play in front of one to three other people even if they all make a noise at the same time it would still be individual, random noise and not the homogenous sound created by a crowd of several hundred+.

There are other games/sports where quiet is expected such as snooker or bowls.

Also the etiquette is that each individual should be quiet should the player wish it not background noise. I find it odd that anyone should be arguing that it is okay to talk while someone is playing a shot if the player wishes for quiet. It seems to be a similar mentality those who thought it was okay to smoke at the dining table whilst others were still eating.

Jon

Smoke? Really? Terrible analogy Jon.
The player is immensely rich compared to 99.9% of the spectators paying to watch him. So the player gets all the rights because he is collecting all that money? Are those paying to watch him just suckers with no rights?

When watching TV, I sometimes say hit the putt Furyk. If I attend in person, I shouldn't be able to say that?
When watching TV, I sometimes say hit the shot Keegan. If I attend in person, I shouldn't be able to say that?

GJ,

why is it a terrible analogy?

I believe the tour professional should be afforded the same courtesy that all golfers are (your 4ball excepted but then again it is your choice and not forced on you)
When you are watching TV do you believe that the players on the tele can actually hear you??? I can not believe you do not understand the difference between being there in person and watching TV  

GJ, I get the impression that because some professionals earn a lot of money that gives you the right to abuse them. I don't agree and neither does golfing etiquette.

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

GJ,

why is it a terrible analogy?

Because no golfer is going to die from my talking.

I believe the tour professional should be afforded the same courtesy that all golfers are (your 4ball excepted but then again it is your choice and not forced on you)

The tour professional should be afforded the same courtesy that all golfers are. That courtesy emanates from their fellow competitors.

When you are watching TV do you believe that the players on the tele can actually hear you??? I can not believe you do not understand the difference between being there in person and watching TV  Roll Eyes

Are you interested in a serious discussion, or do you just want to spew BS.

GJ, I get the impression that because some professionals earn a lot of money that gives you the right to abuse them. I don't agree and neither does golfing etiquette.

Professional golf tournaments are a form of entertainment, just like all other professional sports. Golfing etiquette originates from the treatment of fellow competitors, not from the entertainment industry. I am not entertained by watching tediously slow play. Why should I put up with it. If I went to the professional theater, and the actors stumbled over their lines, and required constant prompting, should I put up with it?

Jon

[Phil Lipper]

The thing that is missing from the analogy with other sports is that added adreneline helps most sports, basketball and football players work hard to get themselves pumped up and excited. The energy of the game translates into great play. Golfers work at keeping themselves relaxed and on an even keel which is entirely different.
In my earlier days I played alot of playground basketball at some of the NY's best parks and I have never seen anyone call a foul on themselves. When you get fouled orthink you get fouled you yell it out, thats very different than golf and what was described earlier. The fact is golf is a different sport with a different decorum than basketball, baseball etc.

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,

you seem to be under the misguided view that spectators are not expected to follow etiquette. There are some sports that do expect a certain level of behaviour and golf is one of them. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

An interesting reaction to the smoking analogy. I can only take it that you never allow anyone to smoke in your presence as it will kill you

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

So Jon,

You think that if I go to the box office and ask for my money back because the players are playing too slow, then they will give it to me?
PGA tour treatment of spectators is arrogant and uncaring.

I hope you have recognized that Sergio and Tiger have to play nice to each other when paired, but I don't have to be nice to either. No conflict in that.

Phil,

We out here in the west think New Yorkers are uncivilized. Play pick up basketball with them at your own risk.
And, by the way, how does adrenaline help free throw shooters?

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