[DJames]

A guy in my office has a 2003 Amazing But True Golf Facts Desk Calendar.  Yesterday's tid bit was:

More than 250,000 stones, some weighing more than seven tons, were used to landscape the property around the spectacular Olde Stonewall Golf Club north of Pittsburgh.  There are enough to make a great pyramid.  Instead, course architects Michael Hurdzan and Dana Fry built a great golf course -- one that is routinely selected as one of the top ten public courses to play in the country.

Has anyone played this course?  Is it truly considered among the top ten public courses or is that just some self-promotion hype?  What's with the stone fetish or were there a lot of "stones" on the land before the course was designed?  Where is it relative to Pittsburgh?  "North" is pretty vague -- Erie is "north" of Pittsburgh.

[ATLRay]

Although I now live in Atlanta, my parents remain in the Pittsburgh area, giving me an occasional opportunity to play some Northern courses while visiting.  Olde Stonewall is located about 1 hour North and West of the city and is easy to access off the PA Turnpike heading West.  I've been on Olde Stonewall three times and each time I walked away amazed at how enjoyable the front 9 is to play and how ridiculous the back side is.  The short of it is Olde Stonewall is a very well maintained course with front 9 holes that mix short and long par fours well, makes good use of water hazards, has moderate elevation changes and adds nice natural appearing architectural touches using stone quarried on site.  But the back nine heads into the high ground on the site and the elevation changes are too severe, too much dirt moved to fit in the holes and indeed, stone support walls everywhere giving a "manufactured" feel to the whole thing. My back side scores are always 4-5 strokes higher than the front and part of it is because I can never get comfortable with how the holes should be played.    Is it top 10 or even top 50 on any kind of list?  No way!!  Will I go back to play it again?  It's already planned for August!

[George Pazin]

DJames -

Hard to believe you've missed our discussions on this course.

I think I probably agree with ATLRay's overall feelings on the course, though my specifics are probably quite different.

I found the front 9 okay. A little bland to me, with a little too much water (note: personal bias here against water - think it's way overused on golf courses, mostly just for picture purposes). There were probably 3 or 4 holes that I really liked on the front. If I had to guess, I'd say 3, 4, 7 & maybe 8 - my lack of memory probably says a little something, as I have no problem remembering holes on courses that I love.

I had similar feelings on the back 9, except instead of water the big challenge is severe elevation changes. This worked on a few holes, didn't work as well on others. There were again maybe 3 or 4 holes I really liked, others were okay. Again guessing, I'd say 12, 13, 16, maybe 18.

If I had to sum up my feelings in one sentence, I'd say the following: I really liked the green complexes all around the course, but it's way overpriced to me, relative to other public courses in the area.

If granted a second sentence, I'd say: LOSE THE FAKE ANIMALS! Good Lord, you're in fairly rural western PA, we have plenty of real wildlife that wanders our courses.

P.S. No one outside of the parties involved would put this course in the top 10 public courses in the country. Not trying to be mean, just honest.

[JohnV]

Come on George, Golf Digest ranks it higher than Stonewall, Whitemarsh Valley and Fox Chapel to name a few.  Its the fourth best course in the Pittsburgh area after Oakmont, Laurel Valley and Sunnehanna.  It must be great, they said so.

[Matt_Ward]

To be totally frank -- Olde Stonewall is a good golf course, but it's a far cry from pacing it at the top of Pennsy public golf. If I had to name two other choices that could seriously grapple for that honor I would name Nemacolin Woodlands / Mystic Rock GC in Farmington and Great Bear in Marshalls Creek.

When you have severe grade changes -- as a number of back nine holes do at Olde Stonewall -- the ability to maintain solid and consistent shot values can be distorted. I don't doubt Olde Stonewall gives you an eye-ful, however, man's hand is clearly in abundance on the site and in many ways takes away from what could have been achieved. Still -- a fine course and if they ever get their act together again at Quick Silver in Midway I'm sure both courses would be a great contest in seeing which one is preferred bythoe visiting the greater Pittsburgh area.

[DJames]

George:

Obviously, I've been asleep at the switch to have missed the Olde Stonewall discussions on this board.  

That description I quoted sounded like more hype than substance and the posts appear to confirm that -- 250,000 stones may be an interesting bit of trivia to some folks, but if a course is supposed to be among the top 10 public courses, I would think that they could come up with more substance.

[Jonathan Cummings]

AltRay - I agree with you on Olde Stonewall.  H/F tried to route the inward half through a way too constrained piece of property.  The results are cramped and squeezed holes and examples of less than great architecture.  There are 50+ better courses in PA than Olde Stonewall.  Another thing about the course is the clubhouse, which is the roadside stone faux castle and startlingly out of place compared to the surroundings.  Also, the lifesize animal carvings (deer, dinosaur, aligator, etc) are a little to zoo-y for me.  

JC

[Tom_Doak]

I just wish they had the courtesy to come up with their own name for the course.  Since we built Stonewall ten years ago there are 2-3 others with the same name ... this one is also in PA, and there's another in VA which is probably also trying to take advantage of mistaken identity.

As a consequence we have no idea what to name the two courses at "the original Stonewall" ... we can't use Old and New because of the copycats.

[George Pazin]

DJames -

No harm meant, just poking a little fun.

Regarding the hype, it's a fun course, a good course, but nowhere near the top 10 public in the country. Matt mentioned Quicksilver with it. I generally prefer Quicksilver, but I could see how others might prefer OS - but not at two and a half times the price.

Regarding the stones, they are not as obtrusive as the calendar makes it sound. There are some strewn about the periphery of the course, but the majority line the water on the front - think a different type of railroad tie. According to everything I've read & heard, they are indigenous to the site.

Regarding that stone castle, wow, I get a chuckle at that one. Looks kind of like something a child would construct out of modern cinder blocks. I've heard the restaurant is pretty decent, though.

JV -

Shows how much I know. Actually, that would be a good litmus test for me if they ever want the thin the ranks of GD raters: If you rate OS over Fox Chapel, you're gone.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Love the idea on how to weed out raters -- the problem is that too many of them WOULD prefer OS over Fox Chapel because of all the eye-candy and the supposed "wow" factor.

Just shows you how ratings have slipped because so few people really know quality when they see it. Call it the McDonald's mentality when it comes to hamburgers!

P.S. I don't really care what a clubhouse is designed for or how it looks. The meat is the golf corse and OS, while still fun to play, is overly produced and man's hand has gone intop overdrive to produce what one sees there. All in all, I would still have the course among the top ten in Pennsy public golf simply because the Keystone State is not much different than the Empire State -- the gulf between private and public is still noticeably apparent.

George -- one last thing -- I was told by a few sources that a major investment at Quick Silver is planned. Let me know how it turns out this summer because they've got plenty of work to do with all the bunkers and in a few other areas.

[Jonathan Cummings]

TD - you probably know this but the VA Stonewall course is named after Stonewall Jackson, not the stone walls that your course and the Olde are named after.  JC

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