Fazio versus Nicklaus

[Nigel Islam]

Which architect do you prefer, and give reasons. I know both are not extremely popular here in the treehouse, but I want to have a better understanding of the criticisms. Possibly the two most prominent post Dye/RTJ architects who are at the back end of their careers.  Look forward to some interesting discussion!

[John DAngelo]

I'd love to offer specifics for what I'm about to say, but I'm struggling to come up with the goods.

Still, since I had a strong and immediate reaction, I'll offer that I have never played a Fazio course that I didn't and least enjoy and in several cases, enthusiastically loved playing.  The same is not true of all Nicklaus courses i've played, although I've played several Nicklaus courses that I very much enjoyed.  In the same breath, I can't site a single Nicklaus course that i've enthusiastically loved.

Ans sorry, like I wish I were better at describing why I like one Pinot over another - because it would help me describe what I'm looking for in an unfamiliar list - I struggle to describe what it is about Fazio courses that make them so appealing to me.

Now, having said all of that, if someone can get me out at Wade Hampton I promise to make note of specifically what I like and report on same.

[Kevin_Reilly]

This reminds me...the architecture philosophies (or at least one aspect) of Fazio and Nicklaus were contrasted many (25+) years ago by Golf Digest in a feature.  

Fazio was summarized by one page with the heading "Come on over" featuring a picture of a welcoming (to the approach shot) green site, with all the challenge then coming on the green, and Nicklaus summarized as "I dare you" with the picture of an approach to a green shown with a fronting bunker and a water hazard.  

The idea was that Nicklaus challenged your ball-striking, while Fazio had greens that challenged your putting and short game.

Not sure why I remember that article, after so many years.

[DMoriarty]

I can't really help with a meaningful comparison of too many courses, but I will recommend the Fazio book to you if you haven't read it.  Lots of pretty photos, but also what I found to be a very candid description of his approach to golf course architecture, including some discussion on his views of some of old greats.  Reading the book helped me realize that Fazio's critics and defenders were largely talking past each other. 

[Matthew Rose]

This reminds me...the architecture philosophies (or at least one aspect) of Fazio and Nicklaus were contrasted many (25+) years ago by Golf Digest in a feature.  

Fazio was summarized by one page with the heading "Come on over" featuring a picture of a welcoming (to the approach shot) green site, with all the challenge then coming on the green, and Nicklaus summarized as "I dare you" with the picture of an approach to a green shown with a fronting bunker and a water hazard.  

The idea was that Nicklaus challenged your ball-striking, while Fazio had greens that challenged your putting and short game.

Not sure why I remember that article, after so many years.

I remember this too, but I believe that Pete Dye was actually the "I Dare You" and the photo was the 17th at Sawgrass.

IIRC, for Nicklaus they had a hole at Shoal Creek.

[Jason Topp]

I am not sure how many courses I have played by both but I suspect it is at least ten each.  To my eye Fazio courses are generally comfortable to play.  While some of his courses are quite difficult, you know where to hit it, the green surrounds give you a chance to save par and the hole distances tend to be at "comfortable" distances.  I view his design approach as a reaction to the severity of Dye designs.  Instead of intimidating you, his holes tend to make you comfortable.  I find his courses to be consistently enjoyable but rarely stunning.  Shadow Creek and Fallen Oak are probably the best of his that I have played.

Nicklaus courses are more difficult to characterize because I believe his approach has varied significantly over the course of his career and (I presume) based on the desires of the client at a location.  His nasty courses (e.g. Desert Highlands, Old Corkscrew) place extraordinary demands on iron play - requiring you to fly the ball to a precise spot at the correct trajectory or pay the consequences.  Some of his other courses tend to be boring - with wide fairways and welcoming approaches (the course at Kiawah resort, Bearpath) and others are brilliant strategic courses interesting from tee to green and playable for all class of golfer (May River, Cabo del Sol Ocean). Almost all of his courses have at least a couple of approaches that are very demanding and will punish an indifferent iron shot with vigor.

Play their respective courses at Kiawah to compare designs from each to accommodate a resort player.  Compare May River with Fallen Oak to see their respective best on an inland location.  Estancia v. Desert Mountain Chricaua for their respective approach to desert golf in a private setting.  Ventana Canyon v. La Paloma for desert golf in a resort setting.

[Kevin_Reilly]

This reminds me...the architecture philosophies (or at least one aspect) of Fazio and Nicklaus were contrasted many (25+) years ago by Golf Digest in a feature.  

Fazio was summarized by one page with the heading "Come on over" featuring a picture of a welcoming (to the approach shot) green site, with all the challenge then coming on the green, and Nicklaus summarized as "I dare you" with the picture of an approach to a green shown with a fronting bunker and a water hazard.  

The idea was that Nicklaus challenged your ball-striking, while Fazio had greens that challenged your putting and short game.

Not sure why I remember that article, after so many years.

I remember this too, but I believe that Pete Dye was actually the "I Dare You" and the photo was the 17th at Sawgrass.

IIRC, for Nicklaus they had a hole at Shoal Creek.

Thanks...would be interesting for someone to dig that up (if possible).

[Martin Toal]

I have played fewer courses by either Nickalus or Fazio than many here:

Nicklaus: Monte Rei, Portugal; Montecastillo, Jerez; Grand Cypress New, Orlando:, Eldorado (pre-changes), Cabo Ocean, Palmilla, all Cabo;

Fazio: Pelican Hill, Newport Beach; Primm Valley, Nevada; Raptor Grayhawk, Scottsdale; Sandy Lane Green Monkey, Barbados; Grand del Mar, San Diego

I like Nicklaus courses, and thought Monte Rei in particular, was terrific. OK, they are grand courses built with lots of nice of unimaginative features, but I remember some of the holes well. Likewise Montecastillo and Eldorado. I was much less impressed with Grand Cypress which I struggled to remember even shortly after finishing. Some of the themes of Nicklaus courses work for me - downhill shots to levels, few shots at the horizon, good framing with bunker, WYSIWYG.

The Fazio courses are also an interesting bunch. I loved Green Monkey, but I don't know how much of that was the spectacular setting and wonderful condition. Would any decent architect have done just as well with that canvas and budget? I really like Grand del Mar (formerly Meadows del Mar) and enjoyed Pelican Hill and Primm at the time although I don't remember those courses very well.

I think a lot of the sniffiness about Nicklaus, in particular, is a bit unfair. It seems to me that he is hired to give a reliably decent course with a big name cachet, and that is what he does. Perhaps it is a bit like eating in a reliable safe bet chain restaurant rather than a smaller, riskier but possibly more rewarding bistro in a quiet street. Nothing wrong with either one at the right time.

[Andy Troeger]

I've played about 30 courses each.

As far as trends, I find that Fazio tends not to take many risks with routing or potentially controversial features. Aesthetics are always well done and prioritized. Strategy can be hit-or-miss, but it is often better than his detractors would like to admit. Difficulty seems to vary. Fazio builds a lot of 6-7's, a few 8's, maybe 1-2 courses in the 9 range (Victoria National and maybe Gozzer Ranch). Compared to most other architects, he's built very few duds. Only 2 of his courses are in the bottom half of my personal list, and one of those is very much in the middle of the list.

Nicklaus puts a lot of pressure on the tee-to-game range and uses a LOT of relatively narrow angled greens that require shaped iron shots. He developed the reputation for favoring a fade, but some of these greens require draws. Coming up short on the angle is almost always penalized very severely, but long is often not great either. I find his courses often have a lot of good holes, but that the sum is not always equal to the flow because of extreme difficulty. I find that I like Jack's oldest courses best, including Muirfield Village, Castle Pines, Valhalla, Shoal Creek, Sherwood, Desert Mountain Renegade, and Sycamore Hills. The new ones are often exhausting, although I haven't seen May River or Sebonack. Nicklaus courses seem to find the middle of my listing, with a few in the top area and a few heading further down.

[Bob_Garvelink]

Tom Fazio blows Jack out of the water.  I feel that Fazio courses are made for the average golfer and still challenge the low handicappers.  They are a joy to play and you never leave a Fazio course with a bad taste in your mouth.  Jacks courses on the other hand are terrible....funky greens and to be honest the majority of the people in my circle typically don't have positive comments about the type of golf course he builds.  If you give me 10 rounds between the two ill pick 8 Fazio and 2 jack......just my opinion

[Howard Riefs]

Tom Fazio blows Jack out of the water.  I feel that Fazio courses are made for the average golfer and still challenge the low handicappers.  They are a joy to play and you never leave a Fazio course with a bad taste in your mouth.  Jacks courses on the other hand are terrible....funky greens and to be honest the majority of the people in my circle typically don't have positive comments about the type of golf course he builds.  If you give me 10 rounds between the two ill pick 8 Fazio and 2 jack......just my opinion

Strong opinion. Which Fazio and Nicklaus courses have you played that contributed to that view?

[Carson Pilcher]

I prefer Fazio over Nicklaus.  Generally, I like the look of Fazio's grand bunkering and not the grassed-in effect of Nicklaus'.  His greens are better too.  More character and slopes.

However, I had the pleasure of watching and walking with Nicklaus as he created Ruby Hills Golf Club.  It was a fantastic experience to hear his thought process as he designed the course.  I am not sure if it because of this that I think Ruby Hills is one of my favorite course designed by Nicklaus, but I am sure it had an effect.  In Ruby Hills' design, Nicklaus utilized some design techniques that were a departure from his normal routine.  Nicklaus utilized greens that were bowls and funneled shots to the middle.  At Ruby Hills, he built some greens with run offs and surrounds ala Donald Ross.  He kept the same grassing effect on the faces of bunkers, but for some reason it did not seem out of place.

[Bob_Garvelink]

Tom Fazio blows Jack out of the water.  I feel that Fazio courses are made for the average golfer and still challenge the low handicappers.  They are a joy to play and you never leave a Fazio course with a bad taste in your mouth.  Jacks courses on the other hand are terrible....funky greens and to be honest the majority of the people in my circle typically don't have positive comments about the type of golf course he builds.  If you give me 10 rounds between the two ill pick 8 Fazio and 2 jack......just my opinion

Strong opinion. Which Fazio and Nicklaus courses have you played that contributed to that view?

Howard,

The Fazio courses I have played include Treetops Premier, Shadow Creek, and Pinehurst #4 & #8.  Fazio typically allows golfers to score well.  I love his ability to create short par 4's which gives the golfer multiple options.  Additionally, he is known for creating shorter par 3's on most of his courses.  He's greens tend to be fair and his wide fairways allow the average golfer to spray it around and have a good time.

Jacks courses in my opinion tend to be over the top.  They remind me of a beautiful woman with to much makeup . I have played the Grand Traverse Resort (Bear) Harbor Shores,  and the Grand Cypress Golf Club.  Although its only 3 courses you can get a feel for a designers taste.  There are a lot of golfers that play Jacks courses and will never return.  Greens are way to tricked up and the bunkering around the greens seems over the top.

Just my opinion and I'm sure other will disagree with my thoughts

Bob