How Long a Course would the golden age architects build today?

[Jason Topp]

I suspect it would be much longer than you might originally think - unless the architects thought limiting the length of the walk was more important than preserving the shots they demanded at the time.  For example, this Flynn quote comes from a 2001 Linc Rhoden Feature Interview suggests to me a very long course in the modern era:

Getting back to the average good course it does seem that from 6,200 to 6,600 yards should suffice for length.

‘Dividing this up into holes there would be say four short holes ranging from the mashie to the full wood shot.

‘One real three-shotter, not merely a hole somewhere over 500 yards.

‘Two drive and full wood shot holes, one with a big carry on the drive as the premium with an easy entrance to the green, the other with accuracy on the drive but with the premium on a big carry for the second shot.

‘One drive and high spoon shot, accuracy off tee and carry to the green.

‘One drive and full cleek shot to narrow entrance and slightly terraced green.

‘One drive and high midiron carry to green.

‘Two drive and full midiron run to green with narrow entrance.

‘One drive and high mashie iron carry to green.

‘One drive and mashie to narrow entrance.

‘One drive and mashie all carry to green.

‘One drive and mashie niblic to island green.

‘One drive and run up on narrow terraced green straight away.

‘One drive and runup, elbow or cape type, with premium on length of drive.

‘ The above list is not at all arbitrary but covers generally the possibilities in an eighteen hole layout.’

[Andrew Buck]

I suspect it would be much longer than you might originally think - unless the architects thought limiting the length of the walk was more important than preserving the shots they demanded at the time.  For example, this Flynn quote comes from a 2001 Linc Rhoden Feature Interview suggests to me a very long course in the modern era:

Getting back to the average good course it does seem that from 6,200 to 6,600 yards should suffice for length.

‘Dividing this up into holes there would be say four short holes ranging from the mashie to the full wood shot.

‘One real three-shotter, not merely a hole somewhere over 500 yards.

‘Two drive and full wood shot holes, one with a big carry on the drive as the premium with an easy entrance to the green, the other with accuracy on the drive but with the premium on a big carry for the second shot.

‘One drive and high spoon shot, accuracy off tee and carry to the green.

‘One drive and full cleek shot to narrow entrance and slightly terraced green.

‘One drive and high midiron carry to green.

‘Two drive and full midiron run to green with narrow entrance.

‘One drive and high mashie iron carry to green.

‘One drive and mashie to narrow entrance.

‘One drive and mashie all carry to green.

‘One drive and mashie niblic to island green.

‘One drive and run up on narrow terraced green straight away.

‘One drive and runup, elbow or cape type, with premium on length of drive.

‘ The above list is not at all arbitrary but covers generally the possibilities in an eighteen hole layout.’

Considering they routinely built courses over 6,000 yards for the equipment of the day, and built them longer for the Haskell than the guttie, I'd guess they would build them every bit as long as today's courses and rarely would be under 7,000 yards (given the space). 

[Sean_A]

It is very difficult to say in the main because publicity/hype drive so much new design today compared to yesteryear.  I do think the ODGs generally would build to suit rather than indiscriminately create championship length courses.  You might find the lines come out just as they did so many years ago.  Tillie building hard as hell courses for championship purposes, Flynn just building hard as hell courses, CBM not giving a rats ass, Dr Mac saying what does it matter if they go low on my courses - they are still championship suitable, Colt tight lipped, etc etc.  

The courses back in the day must have been incredibly difficult when a guy like Bobby Jones plays a masterful round to shoot 66.  Golfers were made of hardier stock back in the day.

Ciao  

[Brent Hutto]

I'll bet they'd build some Par 3's of 300-ish yards to elevated greens. They were making golfers hit 200+ yard uphill shots with hickory shafts.

[DMoriarty]

One of the problems with this sort of exercise is that back then courses could be built to suit a wide variety of golfers whereas today the distance differential between long and short hitters is such that we just don't fit on the same courses absent 1000s of yards of variable silliness on the tee end.  

Still, though, provided we agree we are talking about a course suitable for the best golfers (that was the case with the old course) we ought to be able to figure out it just by substituting in the modern equipment.  

[Jason Topp]

Bill Haas ranked 90th out of 180 for driving distance in 2013.  Applying the old club names to modern irons as identified in this wikipedia articale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsolete_golf_clubs and then shortening by a club to reflect the stronger lofts used today, I come up with his comparable carry distances as follows:

Play Club (Driver) - 285
Brassie (13.5 degree) - 265
Cleek (3 iron) - 225
Mashie (6 iron) - 190
Mashie Niblick (8 iron) - 160
Niblick (PW) - 132

Here is a link to the Golf Digest Article I pulled this from:  http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-equipment/whats-in-my-bag/2012-03/photos-bill-haas#slide=1

[Tom_Doak]

Bill Haas ranked 90th out of 180 for driving distance in 2013.  Applying the old club names to modern irons as identified in this wikipedia articale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsolete_golf_clubs and then shortening by a club to reflect the stronger lofts used today, I come up with his comparable carry distances as follows:

Play Club (Driver) - 285
Brassie (13.5 degree) - 265
Cleek (3 iron) - 225
Mashie (6 iron) - 190
Mashie Niblick (8 iron) - 160
Niblick (PW) - 132

Here is a link to the Golf Digest Article I pulled this from:  http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-equipment/whats-in-my-bag/2012-03/photos-bill-haas#slide=1

Jason:

Yes, but whichever Golden Age architect came up with the prescription of golf holes you quoted, was not using the 90th longest hitter in the world as his standard.  Luckily, no architect ever has.

It would be better to use a scratch golfer standard to come up with your distances, not a +5 professional who won a few million dollars playing golf last year.  Even by the scratch golfer standard, you'll find that the prescription results in a very long course.  I haven't done the math, but I'm guessing it will be 7300-7500 yards.

[Jason Topp]

My attempt at applying Flynn's recipe results in a course of 7950.  The items listed with a question mark indicate I am not sure I understand what he means in terms of yardage for those holes.

As David suggests, I do not think the yardage for the 18 handicapper would have increased all that much - which illustrates the strain increased driving distance has on the golf course.


‘Dividing this up into holes there would be say four short holes ranging from the mashie to the full wood shot.  (190, 215, 240, 265)

‘One real three-shotter, not merely a hole somewhere over 500 yards. (650)

‘Two drive and full wood shot holes, one with a big carry on the drive as the premium with an easy entrance to the green, the other with accuracy on the drive but with the premium on a big carry for the second shot.  (550, 540)

‘One drive and high spoon shot, accuracy off tee and carry to the green.   (530)

‘One drive and full cleek shot to narrow entrance and slightly terraced green. (525)

‘One drive and high midiron carry to green. (490)

‘Two drive and full midiron run to green with narrow entrance. (490, 490)

‘One drive and high mashie iron carry to green. (475)

‘One drive and mashie to narrow entrance. (475)

‘One drive and mashie all carry to green. (475)

‘One drive and mashie niblik to island green. (450)

‘One drive and run up on narrow terraced green straight away. (440?)

‘One drive and runup, elbow or cape type, with premium on length of drive.  (430?)

‘ The above list is not at all arbitrary but covers generally the possibilities in an eighteen hole layout.’

[Jason Topp]

My carry distances (I am pretty sure on the driver - for the irons I subtract 5 for woods, 5 for irons and 0 for a pitching wedge)

Play Club (Driver) - 225
Brassie (15 degree) - 205
Cleek (3 hybrid) - 190
Mashie (6 iron) - 155
Mashie Niblick (8 iron) - 135
Niblick (PW) - 115

[BCrosby]

The math is pretty simple. We've been over this many times. Assuming you want a modern course to play the way a 6500 yard course played in 1930, and assuming further that average scratch drives then were 235 (which is probably at the high end) and assuming average scratch drives today at 280, you get a modern course at 7,745 yards.

You can tweak those numbers as you wish, but the bottom line is that a 7200 yard course today is incredibly short, historical apples to historical apples.

Bob  

[Jason Topp]

For me - I get 6280 - at least for a course with no roll off the tee:

‘Dividing this up into holes there would be say four short holes ranging from the mashie to the full wood shot.  (160, 175, 190, 205)
‘One real three-shotter, not merely a hole somewhere over 500 yards. (550)
‘Two drive and full wood shot holes, one with a big carry on the drive as the premium with an easy entrance to the green, the other with accuracy on the drive but with the premium on a big carry for the second shot.  (430, 430)
‘One drive and high spoon shot, accuracy off tee and carry to the green.   (420)
‘One drive and full cleek shot to narrow entrance and slightly terraced green. (410)
‘One drive and high midiron carry to green. (390)
‘Two drive and full midiron run to green with narrow entrance. (390, 390)
‘One drive and high mashie iron carry to green. (380)
‘One drive and mashie to narrow entrance. (370)
‘One drive and mashie all carry to green. (370)
‘One drive and mashie niblik to island green. (350)
‘One drive and run up on narrow terraced green straight away. (340)

‘One drive and runup, elbow or cape type, with premium on length of drive.  (330)

‘ The above list is not at all arbitrary but covers generally the possibilities in an eighteen hole layout.’

[DMoriarty]

I have the opposite reaction as TD. These courses don't seem nearly long enough to replicate what they were doing then with regard to "Championship" courses.

I suspect that in the 1920's there was much less distance differential then between a world class golfer and a scratch golfer, so in essence these courses were being built with the World's best in mind. If you go far enough back into the 1920 scratch meant you were pretty close to being world class.

And I doubt that Bill Haas is the 90th longest hitter in the world, or even close to it. Look at the distances on the senior tour, college, or even high school to see that he is not.  And I am not sure why we are using carry distance.  The old guys weren't.  To get a better idea of  Bill Haas' distance on a well struck drives, in 2013 30% of his measured drives went over 300 yards.

It seems like if we were going to build a "championship course" to the their standard then we'd have to assume "championship" distances off the tee, and I'm not sure 280 off the tee would cut it.  Wouldn't most "championship" golfers be hitting fairway woods on a hole requiring no more than a 280 tee shot?

[Jason Topp]

It seems like if we were going to build a "championship course" to the their standard then we'd have to assume "championship" distances off the tee, and I'm not sure 280 off the tee would cut it.  Wouldn't most "championship" golfers be hitting fairway woods on a hole requiring no more than a 280 tee shot?

To back up this notion - here are driving distances from the Minnesota State Am in 90 degree weather with relatively light winds.  Based on my experience playing with about 20 of the participants I do not think the distances were greatly affected by weather conditions.  I would guess the average handicap is 0-1 with a low of around +3 and a high of around 3-4.

Haas 285 carry distance is a pretty good approximation of the 287 yard average driving distance identified in these numbers.

http://www.mngolf.org/mga_amateur_driving_distances.html

[BCrosby]

Using 287 as the modern driving average for a scratch player means that a modern course needs to be 7,938 yard to play as a 6,500 yard course did in 1930.

Bob

[jeffwarne]

Using 287 as the modern driving average for a scratch player means that a modern course needs to be 7,938 yard to play as a 6,500 yard did course in 1930.

Bob

The bigger question, assuming no enviromental/cost constraints, is how WIDE would a Golden Age architect build a course today???

[Dwight Phelps]

My attempt at applying Flynn's recipe results in a course of 7950.  The items listed with a question mark indicate I am not sure I understand what he means in terms of yardage for those holes.

As David suggests, I do not think the yardage for the 18 handicapper would have increased all that much - which illustrates the strain increased driving distance has on the golf course.


‘Dividing this up into holes there would be say four short holes ranging from the mashie to the full wood shot.  (190, 215, 240, 265)

‘One real three-shotter, not merely a hole somewhere over 500 yards. (650)

‘Two drive and full wood shot holes, one with a big carry on the drive as the premium with an easy entrance to the green, the other with accuracy on the drive but with the premium on a big carry for the second shot.  (550, 540)

‘One drive and high spoon shot, accuracy off tee and carry to the green.   (530)

‘One drive and full cleek shot to narrow entrance and slightly terraced green. (525)

‘One drive and high midiron carry to green. (490)

‘Two drive and full midiron run to green with narrow entrance. (490, 490)

‘One drive and high mashie iron carry to green. (475)

‘One drive and mashie to narrow entrance. (475)

‘One drive and mashie all carry to green. (475)

‘One drive and mashie niblik to island green. (450)

‘One drive and run up on narrow terraced green straight away. (440?)

‘One drive and runup, elbow or cape type, with premium on length of drive.  (430?)

‘ The above list is not at all arbitrary but covers generally the possibilities in an eighteen hole layout.’

What really strikes me as missing from this list is 1 or more short Par 4s.  Perhaps the last 2 that you've shown with questions could be interpreted as a short 4.  It would not surprise me to find that a golden age architect had incorporated 2 to 3 320-375 yard holes into a modern design.  For example, I'd imagine that the 10th at Riviera could get made at a similar distance to how it is now - though I don't know how long it was as originally designed.  That's obviously only one example based on a relatively famous hole.  But I think that the affection for TOC would lead golden age architects to incorporate shorter 4s even with the massive increases in technology and distance.

[DMoriarty]

Dwight,   I think the last two would be short par 4s.   I think many of the golden agers would have included one or two holes that would have been just out of driving distance for the best and longest golfers.

For example, CBM's Cape at NGLA was 290 yards direct line to the hole and while the hole was not intended to be drivable, it was thought that the largest and straightest drive might get close enough to putt it on.  

The trouble nowadays is that a hole that is out of driving range for the longest hitters is a medium length par four for most golfers.

[Mike Hendren]

Are there facts to support my opinion that the Golden Age architects generally designed/built much longer one shot holes - perhaps one per course over 225 yards, often requiring driver for all but the longest hitters?    By comparison, I don't see many modern courses with par threes exeeding, say 275 yards.  

Stated otherwise, are you more likely to pull a driver or 3-wood on a old hole than on a new one?

Bogey

[BCrosby]

Bogey -

That would be my guess as well. Apples to apples, you simply don't seen many modern golf courses with par three's that require a golfer to reach a green at the limit of his longest clubs.

You see lots of holes like that on Golden Age courses.

Bob

[jeffwarne]

Are there facts to support my opinion that the Golden Age architects generally designed/built much longer one shot holes - perhaps one per course over 225 yards, often requiring driver for all but the longest hitters?    By comparison, I don't see many modern courses with par threes exeeding, say 275 yards.  

Stated otherwise, are you more likely to pull a driver or 3-wood on a old hole than on a new one?

Bogey

I'd say it's not so much that they built longer par 3's (in absolute terms) iin the Golden Age,
but more that in this age of multiple tees on every for EVERY holes, that the on modern courses even the longest par 3's end up being not so long from every tee except the championship and the one tee up from there.

The difference was if from their back tee a hole was 235, it would be 225 from the next(and probably only other) tee.
If there was a ladies tee it would be 185

Now 235 is followed by 210, 185, 160, and 120

As Bob points out, it would be nice to see more 3 woods and drivers on some par three holes, but that would be politically incorrect because many would not be able to reach in regulation, a preordained modern right , even for a player receiving a shot on the hole

[Garland Bayley]

"Yes, but whichever Golden Age architect came up with the prescription of golf holes you quoted, was not using the 90th longest hitter in the world as his standard.  Luckily, no architect ever has."

But Bill Haas is not the 90th longest hitter in the world. He would not even be the 900th longest hitter in the world. Perhaps he might fall somewhere near the 9000th longest hitter in the world.

I think comparison to Bill Haas is very appropriate. I think they would undoubtedly be building 8000 yards.

[JESII]

Do we presume they would have the same costs to hold and maintain as today's guys?

[Mark Bourgeois]

For me the big question is, how did golfers of yesteryear come by their length?

I think the length of many Golden Age courses should be considered in light of conditions back then: carries probably being much shorter but rolls being much longer, so much so that for many players back in the day the gap between our versus their overall distances might not have been, under certain course conditions for them, as great as we might think.

Please don't take my words to mean floggers don't hit the ball miles farther today, just that I suspect if Golden Age architects came back today they might spend more time on things like bunker placement than on length. The change from a carry-plus-roll game to an all-aerial game I think would be what they thought hardest about. Par 3s for example would be longer, sure -- maybe not as long as you think though if they knew they didn't have to factor in roll but only carry. Would they give up on holes / designs that could be played with putter?

I think there are a lot of interesting questions that come up if you consider the change from a carry-and-roll game where overall distances could vary with conditions vs an all-aerial game. Length is only part of that discussion.

[Matthew Essig]

My attempt at applying Flynn's recipe results in a course of 7950.  The items listed with a question mark indicate I am not sure I understand what he means in terms of yardage for those holes.

As David suggests, I do not think the yardage for the 18 handicapper would have increased all that much - which illustrates the strain increased driving distance has on the golf course.


‘Dividing this up into holes there would be say four short holes ranging from the mashie to the full wood shot.  (190, 215, 240, 265)

‘One real three-shotter, not merely a hole somewhere over 500 yards. (650)

‘Two drive and full wood shot holes, one with a big carry on the drive as the premium with an easy entrance to the green, the other with accuracy on the drive but with the premium on a big carry for the second shot.  (550, 540)

‘One drive and high spoon shot, accuracy off tee and carry to the green.   (530)

‘One drive and full cleek shot to narrow entrance and slightly terraced green. (525)

‘One drive and high midiron carry to green. (490)

‘Two drive and full midiron run to green with narrow entrance. (490, 490)

‘One drive and high mashie iron carry to green. (475)

‘One drive and mashie to narrow entrance. (475)

‘One drive and mashie all carry to green. (475)

‘One drive and mashie niblik to island green. (450)

‘One drive and run up on narrow terraced green straight away. (440?)

‘One drive and runup, elbow or cape type, with premium on length of drive.  (430?)

‘ The above list is not at all arbitrary but covers generally the possibilities in an eighteen hole layout.’

I agree with others that there is an absence of short holes on the list so I think the "run up" in the last two is supposed to be a shorter shot.

The drive and run up on narrow terraced green straight away would be like 12 at St. Andrews (316).

The drive and run up, elbow or cape type, with premium on length of drive would be a bit like 10 at Riviera (315).

[Jason Topp]

Did Flynn build short par fours?