It seems participation in scoring the holes is waning. I think that any thread that causes people to explain their reaction to golf holes is valuable.
I am going to go ahead and finsh up now.
Kingsley 16 is very cool. It offers options and has a balance in the penalty for a missed shot. Bogies are certainly very doable when one misses the green. The right hillside option is wonderfully fun to watch. My best results on the hole have occurred when I attacked the pin directly with my standard fade/straight iron shot. But Mike Devries, himself, plays the right slope like a Stradavarius. It is fun to watch. I can firmly say that this is my favorite par 3 on the course.
Crystal 16 depends so much on wind strength. I will never forget my first time around CD when my friend hit his driver solid on 16 into a 30mph wind. As we approached his ball, I heard him ask the caddie "full 3 wood". The caddie replied: "at least twice". The second shot is a full length layup on most windy days but admittedly I haven't figured out much strategy for that shot. The green, as I recall, is significantly under-appreciated with lots of contours and interesting putts.
While I have heard some be very critical of Crystal 16, I don't see it. But even yet, I like Kingsley 16 as a clear winner.
CD up 2 and 5 points.
The 17 holes at both courses have some very difficult land forms to utilize well. 17 Crystal is the more beautiful of the two but frankly, I don't like the hole. It suffers the same dilemma for me as Bandon Trails 14. I just have yet to determine that there really is a good choice off the tee. I have always played this hole into the wind and even though I am longer than average, driving the green has never been possible on my 6 plays. I have felt "out of position" after all 6 tee balls and have hit driver (1X), 3 wood (2X), 5 wood (2x) and the last time I was there I hit two balls 3 iron and 5 iron. I had one 3 wood hang up in the rough on the right slope (dead). I had a 3 wood in perfect position 60 yds short of the green...awkward uphill lie, missed green left (dead). One perfect 5 wood to right fairway. Probably my best chance, hit the green and 3 putted. All the rest ended up rolling down the hill left leaving a blind, uphill, into the wind wedge/short iron. Anyway, not an awful hole, but FOR ME, the worst hole at CD.
I'd like to love 17 at Kingsley but I just don't. The longer hitter is rewarded with a HUGE advantage if you can get the ball past the crest of the hill. In my groups there, we nearly always play the blue tee. Into the wind, getting the ball down the hill is a big hit. Downwind, it is a near sure thing if I make contact. In my last 8 plays from the blues, I have gotten the ball down the hill 7 times. Despite playing with a lot of different folks, I have only seen 2 other balls down the hill in those same 8 rounds. I have seen a LOT of balls end up 5-20 yds short of going down. I just don't think it is a reasonable reward to give me an additional 80 yds because I hit the ball 5 or 10 yds beyond the other guys. Once down the hill, the approach is no bargain, playing well more than the yardage on the ground. This hole is not awful either and it is fun to get the huge distance bonus. For me, from the blues this is clearly a par 4.5 but for nearly all my playing companions it is a par 5. Against almost any other hole at Crystal, Kingsley 17 is a loser.
I will push the 17. In the end, I believe both landforms are just too severe for GREAT golf.
Both 18th holes have very good greens.
I think the down/left tee box at Crystal is far the better tee box. Although the view is lovely from the upper tee, long hitters can bomb the tee shot leaving a very short iron approach. You have to take a line very close to the tree to avoid hitting through the fairway.
Although the 18th hole at Kingsley again features a fearsome bumpy and slanted fairway, I actually think it works very well. As opposed to 6, for example, the left edge of the fairway has a counter slope to balance the hard right to left prevailing contour. The greensite is fascinating and it is incredibly well bunkered. The angle of the green and the bunkers truly makes distance control critical.
Both are very good holes, from the lower tee I think 18 Crystal Downs is just slightly the better hole.
Final Score CD up 3 and up 6 points on the 10 pt must system.
I think there is zero shame in losing 3 down to CD. As I have tried to point out as we have gone, this scoring system fails to take into account a number of factors some of which would accrue to each course's favor if they were taken into account. I think Kingsley nearly always offers the ideal maintenance meld for the architecture. I can't say that for CD. I also think both courses are very well routed. The unfolding of the course and change in environments at both courses is a thing of delight. I do think they both offer bold, interesting features and I have always believed that bold features are what make for interesting shots. I find the front nine at CD to be the better of the two nines with an all-world stretch from 5-8. Kingsley 14-16 likewise dominated my scoring and I think Kingsley's back nine is the better of the two nines.
One last word, my scoring on this thread (and all my posts on all threads of this nature) simply represents my opinion. My opinion, like yours, is biased and flawed and shaped by my personal golf experiences. Your opinions are all equally valid as just that...opinions. I do, however, think that someone like Tom Doak's opinion should carry more influence (although it is not any more valid) because of the breadth of experience as both an architect and student/evaluator of architecture. Oh, and whatever your age, your opinion is likely to change as you see more stuff (both the successful stuff and the dreck). Thank you to those of you who have stuck with this process. Although I am not sure that any of you changed my opinion
, I certainly learned a lot about both courses.
Bart
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