The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event

[Mark Saltzman]

The  "passion" on this thread is making me tired,

The fifth hole at Crystal is flat out confusing the first time around.  It is visually awkward as the best landing area is blind.  The green has as much side slope as almost any I have played (similar to 14 on my home course The Olde Farm for any who have played there).  At high green speeds, the green is too canted but the architecture itself is fabulous.

As an interlude, I think this form of comparing courses makes it much more challenging to include thoughts about how well the course maintenance as a whole compliments or detracts from the architecture.  Overall I think Kingsley's meld is much more flattering of its architecture.  This format simply allows for hole by hole comparison.

The 5th at Kingsley is fun, a real blast.  Balls rattle around within the bowl and often can be seen rolling towards the flag.  Generally the exact results are hidden until you arrive at the green.   Serendipidity plays a very large role in the results and many less than crisply struck shots will end up with excellent results.  Oddly disparate (or balancing out) the other par 3 experiences.  Kingsley 5 may be the best proof that FUN cannot be the only criteria for GREAT architecture.  

In match play, solid Crystal win.  In 10 point must, 10-8 Crystal...

Total CD 2 up, or up 3 points.

Bart

Darn it, Bart, if guys like you and Josh keep describing the holes so perfectly, I'll have nothing to contribute.  Well said.

CD wins the hole.  KC 1UP.

[Josh Tarble]

I may chug through a couple holes today...I hadn't planned on posting this weekend, but it's raining and I was supposed to be playing.  Stupid weather.

Hole #6

Crystal Downs #6 - 384 yards - Par 4
After being bamboozled by #5, you are greeted to another gem just a few short steps off of #5 green.  Again, the scale of it all is something that must be seen, pictures do absolutely no justice to the course.  I'll try not to say that again, but so frequently that was the case at CD.  On the tee the green is tantalizingly close, is it reachable?  Can the tree be carried?  (Definitely not with my ball flight) Like the last hole, #6 does a great job of making the player question if driver is the proper choice.  An ideal ball will be hit 220-240 just at the left edge of the tree.  In my eyes the carry to the top of the hill wasn't enough to be worried about - perhaps only 160 yards or so - the real issue is the staying on top of the hill for a clear view of the green.  A ball hit too far will either run into the left rough or run down the hill in the landing zone and the player will be faced with a blind or obscured view of the green.  Shocker!  The green is another amazing one, in fact it was top 2 or 3 for me.  It was severely tilted from back right to front left and the internal contouring is absolutely magnificent.  In general, it is a double-bowl, side-by-side, but that description doesn't accurately describe the micro-contours of it all.  Simply a great green to play.

Shot from the tee...standing on the tee, the green really does look in play, pretty amazing how that works


I would say this shot is from just short of the ideal landing zone - ideal being further and left of the picture - this is just from the top of the hill, maybe 170 - 180 yards off the tee - you definitely want to approach this green with a shorter club!


Kingsley Club #6 - 396 yards - Par 4
If you thought #3 and #4 fairways were rollercoasters, wait until you see this thing!  On the tee, confusion sets in, where do I put this tee ball.  In execution, the only place you CAN'T miss is short or right.  Anything far enough and relatively straight enough will all end up in roughly the same place left in the fairway.  The one thing I found was, unlike #3 and #4, there is absolutely no advantage to hitting to a yardage.  Let the big dog eat here!  Ideal position for me was left side of the fairway, in the flat portion, probably 130 - 100 yards out.  This gives you a good look at the green and a great angle to use the sideboards right.  This green complex is a doozy too, with short grass propelling any miss left, way left.  The green itself is probably one of the more docile ones on the course, but it is slightly repelling, and kind of slopes away from all sides, except right, the sideboards right are a great feature here.  This hole is a great example of calling for precise execution but allowing the player that misses at least a shot at getting up and down.  The miss left is severe and recovery extremely difficult, but between the sideboards and the short grass, there are plenty of options to get the ball close.  A really solid par 4.

The view from short and left of the fairway...most decent tee balls are going to end up just past the fairway bunkers left


A view from above and right of the green, here you can see all the short grass surrounding the green and the slight repelling nature of the contours


I'm not sure if the sixth at the Downs is really as overlooked as people say, or it's just the middle child to the 5th and 7th, but not much is written about the 6th.  It's tempting nature, wild fairway and (I'm not sure of the right superlative here) green.  It is just as good as it's more famous siblings on either side.  The tee shot needs to be precise, but yet is forgiving and the green is gathering, but I'm sure birdies are rare because of the amazing contouring.  The 6th at Kingsley is also a great, great hole.  At many courses the 6th would be a standout, that tells you how good Kingsley is.  It requires solid execution, but allows for the lesser, thinking player to navigate it's challenges.  Against almost any other competitors, the 6th at KC takes it in a cake walk - but here, the all-world sibling at Crystal Downs takes this one for me Crystal Downs 2 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP

[Mark Bourgeois]

Okay, guys, thanks for listening. I appreciate that. My question on the two 6s is why does either hole have trees? CD's look especially goofy.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm enjoying the thread very much - hope my occasional tidbits of random thoughts are not misconstrued as meaning otherwise. Here's another:

One of the interesting things about this matchplay is the probably unique combination of three elements: 1) it's a Golden Age course vs a modern one; 2) the modern day architect grew up playing and revering that golden age course and its architect, and has been influenced by both; and 3) the two courses are basically in the same region, and share some topographical and vegetational similarities.

In short, what an excellent window into the changing/not changing essence and ethos and philosophy and aesthetics and intention and playability of golf course design yesterday and today.

Peter  

[Jason Thurman]

Round 6

It's raining here too, but I'm still gonna go play in an hour. I've been waiting three months since I bought my bucket hat for this day. Suck it up, Tarble...

The sixth at Crystal Downs is perhaps the finest test of golf on the entire course. Anyone who birdies this hole, particularly after stuffing an approach to inside three feet, is one who earns the approval of Old Tom Morris.

It's a deceptively un-straightforward hole, perhaps the result of modern technology as much as anything. It looks conventional until it makes you misjudge a step. I think of it as a golfing equivalent of Bernard Hopkins in that regard. The tee shot sets up so nicely for a drive right down the middle of the tongue of fairway that comes down the hill. And yet, as Josh mentioned, modern technology (and his 120 mph swing speed) brings a bit of temptation to go around the tree into play. Of course, if you go around the tree successfully, you have an obscured approach from behind a berm to a double-punchbowl green that requires a lot of precision to get close to the pin. The right play is a smooth drive down the middle to 120 yards or so, and then an approach to a green that invites a knockdown short iron shot.

The sixth at Kingsley is yet another example of the best features of the course. I played it as a 3w off the tee because it's the easiest club for me to control in high winds, and the 6th tee is exposed at one of the highest points of Kingsley's property. A low, slinging draw will kick down to the left side of the fairway in most circumstances, though there is a plateau right that offers a nice stance but a poor view of the green. The trick on the approach is to miss right, as balls can kick down the dune and onto the green. It's perhaps my favorite hole on the course.

6 at Kingsley is Manny Pacquiao, a hole that overwhelms you with its terrain, scenery, wind, and awkward visuals that make each shot just a bit uncomfortable. 6 at Crystal Downs is a counterpunching Bernard Hopkins, looking innocuous until it baits you out of position. I hope to judge this matchup with less integrity as the fight goes on, in the true spirit of boxing judgment. Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to do it yet. I love 6 at Kingsley. It sets up perfectly for my eye, and it's rambunctious and fun and one of the coolest pieces of terrain I've been able to walk on a course. Yet, 6 at Crystal just seems to have more guile and variation to me. It's the hole that can change more from day to day, as pin positions can alter strategy and certainly change the feel of the approach shot. Crystal Downs has spent three straight holes out-boxing its opponent, and so closes the first third of the fight. Like Ali-Frazier III, I have a feeling that we'll get a different style in the second third.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9

Running Total: CD 58, KC 55

[Jud_T]

This one is a lot closer than one might suspect.  Both are great holes, but CD wins by a nose due to the superior driving characteristics of the hole.  Both greens are first rate.  This might be one of the holes where CD has even better greenside ground game options than KC, due to the aforementioned internal contours, which is no small praise.

CD 1 Up

[Josh Tarble]

Mark,  in regards to the trees, it certainly is an interesting question.  I think they do add a bit of interest to the holes and they are very nice specimens, so in my amateur opinion not overly offensive.  Not sure I have a great answer though.

Peter, All those things you mentioned as well as the general composition of the course...It's amazing how similar the routing and layouts are.  Close knit, very "social" front 9s and back 9s that meander through the woods, almost keeping each hole isolated.  Very cool routings though.


Also Jason, Old Tom would been ashamed at any birdie that utilized a red driver!  Even if the approach was a thing of beauty.

[Nick_Christopher]

I am behind on the thread - but would agree that #5 is a clear win for CD, but it highlights a frustration with this method of comparison for me.  #5 at TKC is the most fun par 3 on the course.  A 2 is difficult, but a big number is unlikely.  I would rate it perhaps the most fun of all 9 par 3s on the two courses.

Mark has a good point about the tress on #6 at CD - I don't know why the bunkers would have been carved into the hill if the plan was going to be to defend the shortcut of the fairway with a large tree.  Challenging the scab bunkers and failing would make for a pretty cool risk/reward.

#6 at TKC is fun as well, but I think the nod goes to CD because of the cool approach shot and awesome green - it is huge with all kinds of humps and bumps.

All Square.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

the 6th tee is exposed at one of the highest points of Kingsley's property

Jason, thanks for pointing that out - it is painfully obvious now that you mention it, but something that never really occurred to me before...

In my experience, you almost need something with a little cut on it to ensure you hold the fairway and provide the best angle into this green.  It is certainly a tough hole to get comfortable on the tee shot, but one that you do get more at ease with after repeated plays.  As someone previously mentioned, short right is horrible and the best play for me from there is a wedge back into the middle of the fairway...

As for the trees, it seems to me that the birches on the left hand side of the fairway by the bunkers have gotten significantly bigger over the past few years (I supposes trees tend to do that) - I almost wouldn't mind seeing them thinned a bit and opened up.  It is interesting to note, that in Josh Smith's painting of the #6 at Kingsley he used artistic license and eliminated them completely...

[Chris_Hufnagel]

I was interested to see just how big the trees had gotten over the years - below is a photo from the Course by Country tour here on GCA - the tour is from 2002...



Compare this to Josh Tarble's photo at the start of this match...

Below is Josh Smith's painting of the hole - not even a hint of a tree...

[Josh Tarble]

I'm going to go ahead and post #7 - feel free to discuss both 6 and 7 - but fortunately the rain has stopped so I am out the door shortly.

Crystal Downs #7 - 335 yards - Par 4
Stepping onto the tee, the ONLY play should be a 190 - 210 yard shot to the end of the upper fairway.  That will leave a short approach, especially to an upfront pin.  However, this again is surely a hole that has been made even more confusing by modern equipment.  I knew what the play was and I couldn't NOT hit driver.  It was only 280 ish to the front edge and what's the worst that could happen?  Little did I know this famous green is diabolical.  Not only is it the famous crescent shape, dropping at least 7 feet from top to bottom, but the internal contours are amazing and vexing.  An accurate wedge with spin is the only way to get an approach shot close.  But I can't say I wouldn't hit driver every time...it's just so tantalizingly close.  The one question I'd ask, I don't know why anyone would purposely play for the lower fairway.  Blind, delicate pitch.  Maybe it makes sense to a pin that's in the upper half of the crescent.

The view from the tee, just put a driver between the uprights, right?


The view from the ideal layup shot


The bottom portion of the crescent shaped green - this thing goes on at least double the amount shown in the picture - the contours in this portion of the green are really incredible - need to be seen to appreciated, very small details


Kingsley Club #7 - 569 yards - Par 5
The seventh at Kingsley...from the tips I think this drive is the most uninteresting on the course.  Just bang a driver out to the fairway, no choice, just hit it long and straight.  Which is why I'm going to discuss it from the blues.  From 512 yards a difficult choice is presented to the player, do you lay up short of the hill or try to crush driver out over the edge of the hill.  Down wind, this is a very tough choice for me...however, none of the hill can be cut off unless you REALLY bomb it.  It probably takes a carry of 280-290 to really get into the upper flat area...it may be even more than that actually.  Because of this all shots are really played short of the hill or just in the area of the pine trees.  The second is where it gets interesting.  Do you take less club and lay back to the upper area for a good view of the pin or do you hit more to get a shorter club into the severe green, but a blind shot.  The green is another great one...sloped significantly from back to front with a few distinct ridges, back right pin is a brutal one and don't ever be long on the wrong tier. A tough hole that calls for proper execution.

View from the tee


Landing area for the drives


This is where a lot of second and poorly played third shots will end up, a very difficult pitch to a green sloping hard from back to front and away from you


Unfortunately, not much needs to be written here.  The 7th at Kingsley is one of my 3-5 least favorite holes while the 7th at the Downs is one of my 3-5 most favorite holes.  If this were a true boxing match, I'd be worried Crystal was on the verge of a knockout, before Kingsley is even able to get going.  As its only a hole by hole match.  Crystal Downs takes this one 3 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP

[Nick_Christopher]

In a different era (early 1990s), I recall the prevailing wisdom on #7 at the Downs as follows:  With the pin in the back, you would stay on top, but if the pin was upfront, you would hit it to the bottom and pitch up.  The logic was that you had a good look at the flag stick, if not the green from down there and had a much shorter club to control your distance.  Not everyone would have agreed with this, but many played it this way.

#7 at Kingsley has a great approach and a diabolical green (keep it below the hole at all costs!).  It doesn't stack up time after time however to the greatness of #7 at CD.

CD 1 Up.

[Jud_T]

OK,

This one isn't that close either, but it's not quite the blowout that many think.  For one thing the main criticism of 7 at KC is that one is forced to just hit a 230 yard shot off the tee otherwise it brings trouble into play.  Can't a similar criticism be levied against the hole at the Downs?  I will say that KC 7 was perhaps the hole that took me the longest to get comfortable with both the tee shot and the blind second, not in and of itself a bad thing.

CD 2 UP

[Bill Seitz]

Seven at Kingsley is the only hole where my strategy is dictated by the wind. Downwind or no wind and I want to lay the second shot back on the shelf about 115 out. Into the wind and I'd rather be down the hill about 75 yards out. I think it gets dinged for a boring tee shot, and probably rightly so, but there's more to that hole than it gets credit for, and it's really got a great green.

In my only round at CD, I was advised by our host to lay it back on the higher part of the fairway instead of banging it down to the bottom. I don't think I'd do that if I were to play it again. It felt like there was plenty of room down there, and I would have rather had the extra 15-20 yards, but tough to tell after only one play.

[Josh Tarble]

OK,

 For one thing the main criticism of 7 at KC is that one is forced to just hit a 230 yard shot off the tee otherwise it brings trouble into play.  Can't a similar criticism be levied against the hole at the Downs?

CD 2 UP

I would say yes and no.  For me, CD 7 is a great example of knowing I shouldn't hit driver but it is just so tempting. Basically it would take a career drive, but in the 1 out of 100 chance it happens the reward is far greater than the risk. I know it's going to be a fairly awkward second regardless of where the ball ends up, so why not go for it?  At KC it's opposite in that while tempting, a bad tee shot is a lost ball at worst and a punch out at best. A good tee ball may end up in the flat section but more likely it ends up rolling back towards the trees anyway, so what's the point?

[Jason Thurman]

Round 7

I hope Kingsley has a good cut man...

The 7th at Crystal Downs is an icon. One of the best short fours in the world. Where Tom Morris meets Salvador Dali. It's the kind of hole that makes you think too much or reveals that you thought too little, and you're not sure which one. It has arguably the greatest green on a course with one of the best sets of greens in the world. The location and shape of the 7th green is proof that we give routing skill far too little credit on this site. We all like to believe that a great routing reveals itself to the architect willing to listen, and all he has to do is put the holes where they naturally fit. The 7th green at Crystal Downs is proof that a great routing can also be the result of incredible creative vision and audacity on the part of the architect. I can't imagine looking at that knoll and thinking "Yeah, a green should go there." But it absolutely should.

Meanwhile, the 7th at Kingsley Club is a uniquely poor take on the Art Hills 3-shot Par Five template hole. Let's run through the checklist for meeting that template:

1. The hole is a reachable length on the scorecard, but great attempts are made to make it unreachable by making the routing as unnatural as possible (check)
2. The green is completely over the top and features jarring contours (check)
3. The strategy is dictated by clear, flat target areas surrounded by trouble (check)
4. The green has at least one severe fallaway edge, and ideally more (check and check)
5. There are trees in play for a ball in the middle of the fairway (check)

As a judge, Kingsley's seventh is the point at which I think one of these courses has been truly overmatched. In my eyes, it's a blemish so decisive that Kingsley could be the best "top 17" holes of any course I've ever played, and the presence of the 7th would be enough that I wouldn't even consider it competitive with a course of Crystal Downs' caliber. If I could stop the fight, I would. If I could award a knockout, I would. But I can't, because I'm just a judge. As much as I'm shaking my head and wishing the ref would stop this madness before someone gets hurt, all I can do is write a score on my card. But make no mistake. This is an easy 10-7 round.

1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10 - 9
4th round: CD wins 10 - 9
5th round: CD wins 10 - 8
6th round: CD wins 10 - 9
7th round: CD wins 10 - 7

Running Total: CD 68, KC 62

[Jud_T]

10-7?  From your description it should be a 10-0 knockdown with a couple of ten counts and a timeout for blood clotting.

[Bob_Garvelink]

I must be getting old......I can't keep up with this thread so I don't think I will keep updating my scorecard  . I will say that 5,6, and 7 is my favorite group of holes at Kingsley.  #5 is. The best hole at Kingsley in my opinion.....I'll never forget the first time I played it.  I pulled a 3 wood left and i figured it was in the tall stuff but my host ( who's in this discussion) just smiled and said wait......within a few seconds there she came just rolling towards the pin which always brings a smile to my face. I had a great line on my putt but left a birdie putt short    #6 is a great hole as it requires an accurate tee shot....if my memory serves me right if your too far right you have a blind tee shot.  The approach is unique and gives you a few creative options.  # 7 draws a lot of criticism on those site and I've never understood why.  It's actually my second favorite hole at Kingsley.  The view from the tee was amazing and the tall pines on the left give the hole some flavor.  If I remember correctly you have more room than you think on the left side.  I also enjoyed the backdrop on the approach shot.  

Kingsley is a very special place and I hope I can someday say is my home course . I have no doubt that CD is an unbelievable course....... "But as for me..........give me Kingsley or give me death"

[Bart Bradley]

The sixth at Kingley features another awkward landing area.  With a perfectly placed 3 wood it also features another wedge approach.  In truth, I have always thought that a bit more shaping of the left side of the fairway would improve the hole.  The sixth green is small and sheds balls left but you can use the right side(if your tee shot is in position) to feed the ball towards the hole.  Interesting hole but not one of my favorites at Kingsley.

As has been stated, the sixth at Crystal offers lots of options for club and line off the tee.  It features a wonderful green.  As many have said, just an elegant, beautiful hole.

CD now 3 up and on the 10 pt must up 4


The seventh at Crystal is iconic, unique, memorable and cool.  The boomerang green is well done and totally captivating.  Architecture junkies are in heaven.  The hole is well known and well described.

7 at Kingsley is a head scratcher.  I always hit 3 wood now because driver for me nearly always ends up with tree trouble on the left.  On first arrival, the hole is deceptive and one tends to think that a big drive could carry a portion of the right hand hill.  Maybe for today's longest hitters but not for anyone who isn't insanely long.  The 3 wood tee shot means it is always a layup hole and unfortunately leads to another wedge approach.  If I am playing well that means I have likely hit  5 wedges, 1 8 iron (on 2) and one long iron (on 5) for my approaches.   7 has a wonderful, intriguing green that has a great balance of contours.  A good shot can use the slopes to get close and a poor shot will feed away and possibly off the front or left side.

This is a lopsided victory for CD.  CD now 4 up.  I guess it is a 10-8 round but closer to 10-7 than 10-9.  Total CD up 6 on the 10pt must system.  Knowing we are moving to the 8th at crystal, some corner men would throw in the towel to stop this thing before someone gets hurt

Bart

[Howard Riefs]

Playing catch-up...

#5 plays shorter than the number on the card thanks to the bowl green, which uniquely may have both the easiest (back right) and most difficult (back left) pin positions on the course. The upper tee (blue, gold) is subtly angled to the right of the green, forcing the higher handicap player to adjust lest he wants to play from the junk or front right bunker.




On #6, get your tee shot into the fairway and hope for somewhat flatish surface for your approach.  Most all drives funnel down to the left thanks to the severe, rolling fairway. If your drive finds one of the right bunkers, the smart play is a 9W or PW back down toward the flat area by the front left bunker … and hope you get down in two from the fairway. The sideboard on the right is an often-used feature, especially to a left pin. The runoff left of the green is not a good spot to be while the area behind the green is less steep. Among greens at Kingsley, #6 has some subtle movement but could be the most tame.    





View from #4 tee



#7 is a head-scratcher on the first play ... and still one to figure out how to master on the 50th play. It takes the driver out of the hand of most every player as it’s a 300 yd carry to land on the upper shelf by the bunker on the left. It’s ok big hitters, you make up for it on #17, when length is a premium. For me, it’s a 3 wood down the hill to the left center portion of the fairway – even with the juniper on the right. Then a blind mid-iron shot that hopefully stops short of diving down the valley. From there, another wedge that hopefully is not short right whereby it rolls back down to a collection area or left to meet a similar fate. If you find yourself in the collection area, the sideboard right is a nice feature to get to a front left or middle pin.

[Mike Hendren]

Sorry to be a little late to the game regarding the 5th's.  Perhaps the 5th at Crystal Downs was playing downwind my only time there but I easily bombed it (a phrase I get to use about every five years) over the hill and had an easy pitch left.   While the 5th is cute, it can't carry the jock strap of the previous hole - I continue to believe the 4th at CD is stellar.

I'm a sucker for a punchbowl green so I might be in the minority in calling this a push.  An no, JC I am not patronizing you.  Besides, Crystal Downs is about to go on a run.  I'm enjoying the comments on the 6th's.  Two good holes.

Bogey

[Jason Thurman]

Michael, I can't imagine you were tempted to take a direct line toward the green on 5 at Crystal (no offense intended of course). You hit a good shot, probably to the middle/right side of the fairway, and had a straightforward pitch. I assume your tee shot was mostly on your intended line, or at least what your intended line would be on a return visit.

For me, what makes holes like the 5th so great is the way that they provide ample width while still requiring precision off the tee. There's probably a 60 or 70 yard wide aiming cone on that hole to hit the fairway, but going too far right in the cone will send you bounding down the hillside and leave a very awkward shot with the ball below your feet from a longer-than-ideal distance. Going too far left leaves a terrible angle of approach and potentially a blind one as well. That's the shot I had. I hit a great pitch (I thought) and listened for my partner to yell out "Great shot!" After 15 seconds, I thought he must not be paying attention and walked up the dune fronting the green from the left, and saw my ball still rolling further from the hole. I was sure I'd have 15 feet for birdie. Instead I had 50 or 60.

The cool thing is that the ideal line changes based on the player's ability (or their choice of club!), but anyone who misses their ideal line gets penalized. If you had pushed your tee shot a little you'd have had a very tough second. If you pulled it a little you'd have had a very tough second. And yet, another player could take a line 30 yards left or right of the line you took and be just fine, depending on the distance they hit the ball.

[Josh Tarble]

Thanks again for everyone participating in this, it is very interesting to hear individual opinions on holes.  Especially at these two places where I think there may be many divisive ones.  Please feel free to continue discussing any holes already mentioned, I'll hopefully have something to chime in on others.  

But on to hole #8:

Crystal Downs #8 - 550 yards - Par 5

The 8th at Crystal Downs is a perfect example of how trees can positively impact play.  The tree right creates a line of instinct to the already confusing tee shot.  From the back tees, the tee shot is slightly blind, enough that the landing area is not in clear view, but the fairway does snake to the right in clear view up the hill.  The tree makes you think that ideal line is just hugging the left edge, when in fact that tree is probably 370 yards away.  It's another amazing use of scale and the start of a brilliant hole.  The landing area is a wonderful rumpled, heaving piece of ground that tumbles up hill to the green.  The hole probably climbs 50 - 60 feet (maybe more) in elevation, but because of the fairway contours, you never feel the climb is that extreme.  Anywhere in the fairway is good, because you are likely to have an uneven lie in any portion of it.  It would take two mighty whacks to reach this green in two and probably isn't the ideal play anyway.  Right side of the fairway is ideal, but difficult to attain because of the contours.  The green is, unbelievably, another fantastic one and anyone complaining about fairness will probably hate it.  It has great internal contours, with a large plateau-like shelf in the middle, sloping away towards the back and steeply towards the front.  The front falls off to a steep 40 yard depression and I unfortunately witnessed a ball travel from the back of the green to roughly 60 yards out into the fairway.  A green that is reasonable to hit it closely and still be terrified of the putt; a green worthy of the 550 yards of brilliance before it.  

The beginning of the fairway, probably a 120 yard carry to this point from the back tee - still about 150 yards to the ideal landing area - and can clearly see how the tree is actually well right of the ideal target line


Looking back down the fairway you can clearly see the fantastic contours of the fairway and interestingly enough, a solitary bunker on this hole - something I didn't even realize until this picture


Kingsley Club #8 - 360 yards- Par 4
A beautifully difficult short par 4.  On the tee the player can take the clear shot left of the giant fairway bunker or the blind shot over 3 stout, ball-grabbing bunkers on the right.  The play left leaves the player with a difficult shot over a giant mass of sand, a deep green-side bunker and a very limited view of the flagstick.  Right leaves the player with a little bit more open view but uneven stance.  I'm still not sure what is better, but the ideal play takes as much stick as you can, without reaching the bunker, on either direction.  I do wish I would have tried smoking the driver directly over the fairway bunker, but surely that is a fools errand.  The green is absolutely diabolical, falling away front, left and right.  The safe play is a bit long using the backboard to help guide a shot, but not too long as the ball can gather too much speed and unmercifully roll off in any direction.  A very tough shot to get closer given the blindness and severe penalty for missing - even with a short iron.  Take your 4 here and move on.

Taken very close to the 3 short fairway bunkers, this shot details the massive fairway bunker, plus the elevated nature of the 8th green - I saw many balls here get "Kingsleyed" as Jud would put it


Hole #8 at Kingsley is brutally difficult, but unlike #2, presents numerous recovery and approach options.  It was one of my favorite holes on the course, a beast downwind and into it.  The 8th at Crystal is surely one of the best par 5s I've played, extremely difficult, bordering on unfair, and can break your heart as you are trying to finish out a solid front 9.  Surprisingly, these two holes are very similar, even given their lengths and pars.  I will vehemently argue with anyone that says either are bad holes - but to me, Crystal takes this one in what may be the greatest uphill par 5 in the world.  Crystal Downs 4 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#8 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP

[Josh Tarble]

It's at this point that I started questioning many opinions that Kingsley can hold its own against Crystal.  The front nine must be considered one of the greatest nines in the world.  4 up after 8?  With THAT back nine coming...What's the point?  

I have not gone into detail for the remaining holes, but can assure you, I think Kingsley more than puts up a valiant effort.  Don't tune out yet, the fireworks have just begun.

[Josh Tarble]

(Sorry for 3 posts in a row)

Jason,
The reasons you described are why I liked Crystal #5 so much.  The options are nearly limitless in how you play, and each one still calls for a high level of execution.  At some point, a high-quality shot will need to be played.  You could go low for an easy tee ball, but a very difficult second is then required.  A long iron tee shot and mid iron approach is probably a compromise in the middle and a driver tee ball is very difficult, but leaves an easier approach (easy being relative on this hole) into the green.  If options are what makes a hole great (which I don't think that's the only criteria), this one passes that with flying colors.