The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event

[Bart Bradley]

In my opinion, it is a hole that is almost entirely about execution (tee shot and recovery shots). I like these type of holes from time to time, but can see where some may not

Bart, how does this comment not apply equally to CD #1?

Mark

Do you not think that some recovery shots around the first green at Crystal are easier depending on where you position your approach?  Wouldn't you prefer to be short and left rather than long and right?  At Kingsley 2, any miss might be nearly dead (especially for the weak player).   I got up and down from right of the green this year but the weakest member of my group missed the green 3 out of 4 rounds and was eventually on every side of the green...he had 1six and 2 xs in those 3 attempts.  

[Jim Colton]

Homerism abounds, though it's been relatively civil in the other boxing thread. I'm going to cook up a bowl of popcorn for this one. The fur is flying already.

[Jud_T]

So this is match play between a consensus Top 20 US course and an unranked but golfclubatlas-centric homer favorite. Back to playoff baseball.

I'm not sure I'd characterize 24th on Golfweek Modern, 58th on Links US, 64th US on Top 100 Golf Courses and 71st in the world on Planet Golf unranked, but if you prefer Digest with your Vaseline Intensive Care I guess it's at least understandable...

[Howard Riefs]

Homerism abounds, though it's been relatively civil in the other boxing thread. I'm going to cook up a bowl of popcorn for this one. The fur is flying already.

Chomp away:

http://m.imgur.com/a/0hNaU

[Jud_T]

Mark,

Isn't there a significant premium to coming into #1 at CD from the left side of the fairway?

Bart,

#2 at KC is not an all or nothing proposition compared to say a par 3 over water.  One can hold the putting surface on a recovery from almost anywhere, including the left side.  The key is to aim for the fattest available part of the green and COMPLETELY disregard the location of the pin.  The same is true for #9.  It's most golfers' total inability to take their medicine in this fashion which brings in X's.  I once bet a buddy of mine, a 7 hdcp, that he couldn't break 90 from the tips at Kingsley.  He was going along swimmingly till he missed #9 in the wrong spot, got greedy and walked off with steam coming out of his ears and a 13 on the card.  Needless to say, dinner was on me (with his money!)...

[Nick_Christopher]

Jim - not sure the format accurately rates which course is "better", but I'll play along!

For me, the view on #1 at CD is the best in golf, but I think #1 at Kingsley is a slightly more interesting hole that presents some really fun shots.  Both the tee ball and the approach have options.  I often like to play a low runner bounding up the hill at Kingsley using the right hand slope to feed it to the pin.  Thus #1 goes to Kingsley

#2 at CD has some of the more interesting ripples and subtle changes in lie on the front nine.  The green is sneaky hard and allows the player to use the ground game.  #2 at Kingsley is a fantastic short par 3, but I wouldn't choose to play it over and over trying different shots (which is what I would do on #2) - and thus give a slight edge to CD.

Tied 1-1

[JC Jones]

#2 at CD has some of the more interesting ripples and subtle changes in lie on the front nine.  The green is sneaky hard and allows the player to use the ground game.  #2 at Kingsley is a fantastic short par 3, but I wouldn't choose to play it over and over trying different shots (which is what I would do on #2) - and thus give a slight edge to CD.

This is a really interesting point and I think you're right in that you would try more shots at CD #2.  I'm not sure it off sets the straight-forwardness of the hole but I think it is a damn good point.

[Josh Tarble]

Nick, I don't think a match play format is the best way to compare two courses either, but I think its a fun exercise...and the amount of participation in the thread already says it is probably closer than most people expect.  Regardless, both these are two courses everyone here needs to make an effort to play.  They are both fantastic and incredibly fun - in my eyes it doesn't really matter who is better.  I feel fortunate to have had the opportunity to play both in the same trip.

[Mark Saltzman]

In my opinion, it is a hole that is almost entirely about execution (tee shot and recovery shots). I like these type of holes from time to time, but can see where some may not

Bart, how does this comment not apply equally to CD #1?

Mark

Do you not think that some recovery shots around the first green at Crystal are easier depending on where you position your approach?  Wouldn't you prefer to be short and left rather than long and right?  At Kingsley 2, any miss might be nearly dead (especially for the weak player).   I got up and down from right of the green this year but the weakest member of my group missed the green 3 out of 4 rounds and was eventually on every side of the green...he had 1six and 2 xs in those 3 attempts.  

Bart,

Impressive up and down!  Yes, I think recoveries from short/left of CD are easier than those from right or long/right, which based on what I've read are literally impossible to keep on the green.

So the big strategy of the first hole is to miss the approach in the left rough?

I guess I'll keep saying it, but I just don't get what everyone is seeing in this hole.  Nothing offensive about it, but to put it in the category of world's best openers along with National's, Shinney's, Sand Hills...

Would everyone get equally annoyed if I said the first at Valley Club, a hole that is fairly similar to the first at Crystal Downs, is also a weak spot (though I think it compares favorably to Crystal's first!).

[Josh Tarble]

Crystal Downs - 191 yards - Par 3
I really liked the first par 3 on the course at CD.  We played it to a pin in the front portion (back edge) of the green.  It is a great green that angles back and to the left of the tees.  Playing from an elevated tee, I found it played roughly the yardage from the tee box.  Our pin was set on a diabolical little tier on the right side of the green.  I think it is pretty great in its design, as the further left the pin gets, the better, more daring a shot must be to get close.  While the right side was protected by a more challenging section of the green (leading to my second 3 putt of the day)  .  The rear bunkers are some of the coolest on the course, looking like the "melt" into the hillside.

The view from a shorter tee shows the angling nature of the green



Kingsley Club - 426 yards - Par 4
My first play through (by myself), I stepped to the tee, knocked a driver down the left side and kept it up on the ridge, hit a PW to 6 feet and drained the putt for birdie.  I thought "what's the big deal here?"  My next play I proceeded to hit what I thought was an even better drive, only for it to trickle off the ridge and down the hill, leaving a blind, very difficult second.  The bunkers on the right create a line of instinct that isn't necessarily the best play, but certainly better than going left.  For the big hitters, I think the line just off of the first fairway bunker is ideal...what a great tee shot though.  It is an awesome fairway, where position matters WAY more than length, stay on top of the ridge and it's relatively straightforward, drop off to either side and it is very very difficult.  And I haven't even mentioned the green yet...It is a serious boomerang of a green, I'd guess close to 60 yards long, maybe more.  There are so many humps and bumps to help you get a ball close and a huge collection area short of the two bunkers to make players think about their shot to a front pin.  All in all, a fantastic hole.    (And for all the big hitters at Kingsley - I thought the white tee on #5 would make it a really, really cool hole).

The view from the tee...the ridge on the left center of the photo is idea - first bunker on the left is a pretty good line too



For me, this one wasn't close either.  The par 3 at CD is very good, and against many other holes would probably win, but the third at KC is one of the best par 4s I've ever played.  The ridge in the fairway, the wrap-around green, the bunkers guarding the right side...it all just adds together to create a fantastic hole.  This hole goes to Kingsley  - Crystal Downs 1 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP

[Mark Saltzman]

#2 at CD has some of the more interesting ripples and subtle changes in lie on the front nine.  The green is sneaky hard and allows the player to use the ground game.  #2 at Kingsley is a fantastic short par 3, but I wouldn't choose to play it over and over trying different shots (which is what I would do on #2) - and thus give a slight edge to CD.

This is a really interesting point and I think you're right in that you would try more shots at CD #2.  I'm not sure it off sets the straight-forwardness of the hole but I think it is a damn good point.

Agreed, well said.

[Mark Saltzman]

Josh's hole descriptions are spot on.

KC wins the third hole and goes KC 3UP.

[Jud_T]

I don't think even TomD would argue with this one.  One of Kingsley's absolute best.  The 3rd at CD is an intriguiging hole and a very nice segue from 1&2 that I'd like another crack at.  #3 is perhaps the finest driving hole at KC.  The gulley short and right of the green is one of the best hazards around.  A serious penalty of a miss, but one of the most fun recovery shots on the course, particularly with a 4-wood to a front pin!  This highlights one of the things that makes this a much closer match than many would expect- the conditioning at Kingsley.  Simply the finest F&F links turf many of us have experienced this side of Dover.  It's the ability to play endless ground game shots off the small and large features at Kingsley that makes it so much fun and leads a surprising number of folks to say they'd play more rounds out of 10 at KC than at CD.  If Crystal had the maintenance meld and mowing lines of Kingsley (would this even be possible?) it might well be the most fun course on the planet.

1. CD
2. KC
3. KC

KC One Up

[Chris DeToro]

Totally agree with the thoughts on the 3rd hole at Kingsley.  I would be part of the contingent that has probably played 50+ times at Kingsley and only once at CD, but the 3rd presents many options.  I've hit anything from a long iron to driver off the tee depending on the wind direction.  Plus you could be in "great" position in the fairway and have a completely blind shot.  I've always found that approach to be one of the most underratedly daunting I've ever faced.  That front bunker, I feel, typically presents the least risky up and down, but miss that bunker and you are in big big trouble in the gulley  

[Jason Thurman]

For those questioning Kingsley's ability to measure up to Crystal Downs: I can't entirely disagree with you. But I also think Crystal Downs is the World Top 50 course most likely to be rated a 5/10 by a knowledgeable golfer (possibly second after The Old Course). It's obvious from reading through this thread so far that plenty of people aren't sold on it, and Kingsley does inspire a certain love in people. Not all the Kingsley lovers are members, and I can't think of any that I'd call a Kool Aid drinker. There's nothing phony about the joy that these guys get. Remember, no one thought Buster Douglas could beat Tyson either, and anybody can win on any given day in match play.

Round 3

Two solid fighters with angled greens square off. Josh covered the playing characteristics well. Like most par 3s, there's not a lot to the strategy at Crystal Downs. It's a solid middle iron, probably best played with a right-to-left ballflight and favoring the right hander whose most likely misses are long left or short right. In this battle, I can't help but think of its intangibles. It's the first hole that emerges on the drive in, and its proximity to the road is sudden and surprising. It has a certain intimacy as a result, and those rear bunkers really are artful.

Kingsley's third is a big, expansive par 4, though not especially long. Most players have a real choice regarding the line they take off the tee, as the angled fairway is truly superb. It offers plenty of width to choose a line ranging from wildly conservative to very bold, and yet, unlike so many fairways with width, it still demands precision as its fallaway nature will quickly punish an indifferent swing. The green, then, swings dramatically from left to right around a bunker complex. Playing left keeps you on level with the green, though pitches to the right side of the green will be extremely difficult from there. Playing right risks sliding downhill into a swale from where recovery becomes very difficult.

In a matchup between a pair of stout holes, the third at Kingsley is clearly the winner. It puts the third at Crystal on the ropes, but just can't drop it to the canvas, as the latter's art and guile keep it on its feet after suffering a barrage that would drop most third holes in the world. The third at Kingsley is GREAT.


1st round: CD wins 10 - 9
2nd round: KC wins 10 - 9
3rd round: KC wins 10-9

Running Total: CD 28, KC 29

[JC Jones]

Here is where I go off the rails and as you'll see in the next several holes, I might not get back on the track!!

The 3rd at Kingsley Club is one of the most architecturally interesting 4 pars on either course.  I've hit everything from driver to 4/hybrid off of the tee and have been everywhere from the rough on 4 to OB left.  The different lines and the resulting approach shots are awesome, and that is ONLY the tee shot!!  Couple that with an enormous green that has all kinds of character and undulation and the severity of missing it short, it is a great hole.

HOWEVER, I think #3 at Crystal Downs might be the most underrated hole on either course.  I simply love this par 3 and find a recovery shot to this green equally as hard as one on #2 at Kingsley.  It might not have the gunch or the deep bunker but try getting up and down from a back bunker to a back pin position on this green.  For me, the way the hole sits on the dune with the back-drop framing it is truly fantastic.  A well executed high draw to this par 3 is as rewarding as it gets and the green, to me, is very interesting.  It might not be as severely sloping back to front as #1 & #2 but it has more internal movement, IMO, and thus makes it more than the one-dimensional greens preceding it.

Fun Factor prevails for me and Crystal Downs wins.

Running Score

#1 - Draw - Even
#2 - Kingsley - KC 1 up
#3 - Downs - Even

[John Kirk]

Thanks for letting me participate...come on John Kirk, you are a proven pro at this format ;-)

But I'm tired.

I like Crystal Downs a lot.  The first time I played it I thought it was overrated,  By the third time I loved it.  I don't think I want to participate hole by hole, as Crystal Downs will mass a healthy lead in short order.  Kingsley might make a run on the back nine.  I like the back nine at Kingsley significantly more than the front nine.

[Tim Bert]

The 3rd at Crystal Downs is an enjoyable hole and I really like the pin position out toward the left. Bonus points for the the awesome eroded look of the rear bunker and how it melds right into the trees, brush, and hill behind the hole.

The 3rd at Kingsley is one of the finest holes on the front nine. As Josh noted, it is direction and not pure distance that finds the sweet spot of the fairway, yet depending upon how much you can chew off there are still multiple lines off the tee for the good player and the bad.

Josh mentions the white tee on 5 as being a possibility. For the long and strong golfer the gold "wing" tee on 5 is also a possibility and forces the golfer to shape the ball a little more off the tee.

It is a pity that many good golfers don't experiment with tee options more frequently as the red tee on 3 presents a fun drive able hole for the big hitter. As I have often stated before, tee variety is one of my favorite things about Kingsley.   There are so many great alternative distances and angles created by the tees here for the golfer willing to forego the one tee mentality and just explore.

Kingsley wins the hole for me and goes 1 up through three.

[Bob_Garvelink]

KC gets the nod on this one.  Hole # 3 at KC is awesome.  Your approach shot can be very interesting depending if you hit the wrong part of the fairway.  The topography of the fairway stands out and i like the risk reward play on this hole.  Additionally the green is pretty unique as its rather large if my memory serves me right.

CD #3 looks amazing as well as im usually a sucker for elevated par 3's but not against KC # 3.

KC 2
CD 1

[Terry Lavin]

How many gca.com guys are Kingsley members?

[Bart Bradley]

One of the problems with match play comparison is that we don't consider that this is the third straight hole we are hitting a short iron approach at Kingsley (assuming we laid up on 1).  I only ever hit driver on Kingsley 3 and generally have a sand or pitching wedge left.  It is a great green with tons of wonderful hole locations.  

I agree that  CD 3 has a certain something and tends to be overlooked.  A beautiful green site and great green.  It is a very well used corner of the property without feeling cramped.   I really like bunkers that are cut into existing slopes.

Both are very good.  Push

Match still square.

[Mark Saltzman]

One of the problems with match play comparison is that we don't consider that this is the third straight hole we are hitting a short iron approach at Kingsley (assuming we laid up on 1).  I only ever hit driver on Kingsley 3 and generally have a sand or pitching wedge left.  It is a great green with tons of wonderful hole locations.  

I agree that  CD 3 has a certain something and tends to be overlooked.  A beautiful green site and great green.  It is a very well used corner of the property without feeling cramped.   I really like bunkers that are cut into existing slopes.

Both are very good.  Push

Match still square.

Bart, I don't know if you're able to answer this in hindsight, but do you think the score in the match would have been different if you were doing this exercise after playing CD only once?

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think even TomD would argue with this one.  

Well, I won't argue, exactly.  I think the tee shot on #3 at Kingsley is a great feature, and although I think the green is a bit overdone, I would give it the hole in a match ... which would put the two courses even after three holes on my scorecard.

However, while JC found things to admire in the 3rd at Crystal Downs, no one has bothered to mention why the hole is so good.  The tilt of the green from right to left is significant ... it is just laying on the ground the same as the second green, and falling in the same direction, but you are playing into it from 90 degrees to the right.  As with all holes at Crystal Downs, you need to be below the hole for your putt ... so in this case that means you need to take on the front bunker to keep to the left of the hole.  A weak fade off the tee finds short grass, but only about 1 player in 20 will get up and down from over there.  For me, that's a lot more interesting than watching Mr. DeVries play back and forth across the 2nd green at Kingsley after missing left, as he did the first time I played there.

[Tim Bert]

Terry - I count at least twelve.  No playoff baseball on this morning?

[Bart Bradley]

Mark

Yes, I too appreciated Crystal more after playing additional times.  I also will admit that listening to Mike Devries describe the holes and talk about the merits of Crystal gave me more appreciation for the course.  I wish I could write as eloquently as he speaks about the place.  

Bart