The Kingsley Club vs. Crystal Downs - A Matchplay Event

[Josh Tarble]

Tim, never make the mistake of me saying I have a bunch of wedges as it being too easy!    In fact that makes it all the more embarrassing stumbling home with a bunch of bogeys.    Just ask Howard how that works out for me!

I'm sure you played #18 better the 2nd, 3rd and 4th times.

I did...and I was nowhere near as close to the green  



Bill, I agree with you...It was probably due to the fact that we weren't totally familiar with the course and the shots were pulled a bit.  I'm guessing the line I took off the tee each time still wasn't far enough right, I just didn't know any better.

We'd probably know the right place to look after playing it a few more times as well.  

[Jud_T]

I remember looking for one of those balls left.  I think it's the first time I've ever been in the woods on that side of the fairway...

[John Kirk]

Another comment on Kingsley's 14th hole.  The 250-280 yard second shot is usually played off a side hill, to a pretty narrow alley, but a solid, online shot will roll a long way, and tend to bounce into the middle.  So even your typical medium-long old guy might consider it from 260, because it looks so good and you just want to try and nail the long low one.  Great visuals here.  Has anybody else mentioned the green is small and divvied up into about four separate areas?  Not super sloped, but very tricky from one piece to the next.

[Bart Bradley]

14 Kingsley may well be the best hole on the course.  An ever narrowing fairway/target as one gets closer to the green, it requires lots of thought and execution to score well.  The greensite is wonderful and affords all sorts of short game options.  The tee shot is fun and perfect for the power fade.  Two perfect shots can get home but there is a lot of risk in going for the green in two including the OB left.  I must say that I think this is a great hole from the blue tees.  So much more temptation and reward for going at the green.  It also pairs much better with the 15 if you have a legit birdie shot on 14.

14 Crystal is a nice short par 3 with a beautiful view.  I suspect Tom Doak and Bill Coore have each built more than a dozen short par 3s that I find more interesting to play.  One might even argue that Kingsley has a couple of short 3s better than 14 at Crystal.

I don't get how Kingsley lovers would desert her here, 14 is simply a great hole....for me, clearly a Kingsley win 10-9.

CD up 4 holes and 7 points on the 10 pt must system.

Bart

[Mac Plumart]

Bart...

14 at Crystal is more than just a beautiful setting.  It adds yet another aspect to highlight the courses routing, specifically dynamic land changes.  Furthermore, it cements the courses sense of place with the view.

Great golf holes are more than simply interesting to play.  Dynamic routings, land changes highlighted, with a sense of place all of which need to be in place, along with interesting golf shots, to make golf holes great...but these holes need to be tied together with the other holes in such a manner to create a great course in its entirety.

To me, that is what makes 14 at Crystal so good.



Also, per your comment of Kingsley lovers "deserting" her on the 14th hole...huh?  Who is deserting Kingsley on this hole?

[Steve Salmen]

Anyone find similarities between 14 at Crystal and 11 at Shinnecock?

[Nick_Christopher]

#14 at CD is sweet relief after 13!  Coming through the path in the trees to see a short manageable shot is a testament to the genius of the routing.  The view off the back is spectacular.  The club clear-cut the meadow about twenty years ago, returning it to its 1920s vista, but over the ensuing couple of decades, the trees decided to keep growing.  Nevertheless the views of Platte Bay off the back of the green are some of the best anywhere.  The hole is presented very naturally with no fairway, but the natural areas are very playable and sandy.  The front bunker provides a lot of interest the way it pushed right up into the green.  A recovery shot has to land softly.

Kingsley's 14 is a ton of fun that gives guys with only average drsance  a boost of confidence if they can hit the speed slot.  The narrowing fairway and cool collection area to the left are both great features.  The green has been cleared out substantially since the course opened which has helped the grass and allows it to tied into the openness of the front side better.  Overall, a slight nod to Kingsley with the difference being the number of shots that can be hit into the greeen (everything from a running 3 wood to a flip wedge depending on how you choose to play it).

CD 1 up.

[Howard Riefs]

Kingsley's 14 is a ton of fun that gives guys with only average drsance  a boost of confidence if they can hit the speed slot.  

Definitely agree. For the guys who are ecstatic after a 250-yard drive, the speed slot on #14 is one of the only that we can hit from the blue tees. We miss the ones on #1, #10, #12, #15. I hit the slot during the Mashie and was surprised and thrilled to find that my drive went 280. My second shot wasn't as memorable.

[Mike Hendren]

Anyone find similarities between 14 at Crystal and 11 at Shinnecock?

Not me.  I have never played a hole that requires a more precise short iron than the 11th at Shinnecock Hills.  Coupled with its exposure to the wind it requires club selection and execution of the absolute highest magnitude. By comparison the 14th is far more receptive.   Perhaps I'm biased since I made a downhill 15 feet downhiller to a front hole location for par at CD and putted off the green from 6 feet above the hole a SH.  

Only one of the two holes can legitimately be called a half par short one shotter.

Bogey

[Josh Tarble]

Crystal Downs #15 - 327 yards - Par 4

This may be nonsense, but I think Crystal Downs might be the rare course that has gotten better with the advancements of golf ball whacking technology.  Holes 5, 6, 7, to a certain extent #8 and right here at #15 and definitely #17 have all become a bit more perplexing with the added distance players can hit the ball.  Before, I'm sure this hole was just a layup short of the two fairway bunkers at about 250 from the tee and then hit a wedge on the green.  Now, as I was standing on the tee, I sat and questioned what the ideal play actually is.  Being the dumb brute that I am, I decided on driver and getting the ball as close as I could...of course, sending the ball off wildly into trouble right.  Meanwhile, my playing partner layed up short of the bunkers, put one fairly tight and nearly drained the birdie.  I was left scrambling for bogey.  Before, the green would have never been a thought, leaving this a fairly easy layup and wedge.    

However, there is great movement in the fairway, making it not exactly straightforward, as you are not guaranteed a level stance in the fairway and required to execute your shot to carry a small uphill slope.  The green is another really good one.  Maybe the smallest green on the course, not a ton of bold contours but small movement that makes putting tricky.  With the bunker right cutting nearly into the green itself.  I'm sure there have been putts from the green into the bunker.  A really solid hole.

The rollercoaster fairway of the 15th.  Top of the small rise in the fairway is ideal.


Kingsley Club #15 - 465 yards - Par 4
Much has been said of the 15th.  A tough driving hole to a small green perched up on the right.  Between the length, the slope of the fairway and the raised up green, this is one tough hole and I loved it!  In my opinion, this is the best hole on the course.  First off, I found it easier from the tips!  This is because I found my drive would not get pushed quite so far to the right, leaving a longer, but open shot into the green.  Yes, a difficult green to hit from 190 but easier than being blocked out by the trees.  The second reason I loved it, is because of the length, it tricked me into hitting driver almost every time from the blues.  I hit pretty good drives every round, but because of the slope I was pusher over to the right and blocked by the trees.  Twice I had to punch under and once I was lucky to have a shot over the trees.  I just couldn't get it through my head that the best play was to leave yourself 180-220 into it.  If I played it again, I would certainly not hit driver off the tee and leave myself a better chance to hit the green.  

I also love the green complex.  There is plenty of room to the left, but that is not ideal position at all, in fact it's a pretty difficult up and down.  I found the best place to come in was from just short and center of the green.  From there this green has a couple tiers and a nice backstop that can be utilized for the recovery shot.  Just a great, testing hole.

From the tee, the huge slope that carries balls to the right can be seen.


From 16 tee, this is one of the images of Kingsley that is permanently ingrained into my head


I would probably guess 15 at the Downs is a better hole than I give it credit for, but seeing as I was way right and close to the green, I didn't really get to experience the awesome fairway (and I know, you shouldn't judge a hole on how you play) and 15 at Kingsley is such a great hole in my opinion.  This one goes to Kingsley Crystal Downs 2 UP

Running Score
#1 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#2 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#3 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#4 (Kingsley Club) - ALL SQUARE
#5 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 1 UP
#6 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#7 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#8 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#9 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#10 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs - 4 UP
#11 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 3 UP
#12 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#13 (DRAW) - Crystal Downs - 2 UP
#14 (Crystal Downs) - Crystal Downs 3 UP
#15 (Kingsley Club) - Crystal Downs 2 UP

[Mike Hendren]

I think it's impressive that Mike eschewed conventional Garanimals wisdom by pushing up a small green at the end of a lengthy par four.  Then again, I can't help but wish the green was sited in the dell to its immediate left (for some reason I'm thinking of Mackenzie's original 10th green at Augusta National) with a bunker or two cut into the base of the fronting hillside some 30 yards short of the green.  

Then again, that's why he's a golf architect and I'm a banker.

A very strong hole and clear winner.

Bogey

[Jud_T]

I'm gonna go against conventional wisdom here.  Yes, I think 15 at Kingsley is a really good hole and a fantastic green.  It's definitely a true par 4.5.  This is the only manmade green on the course, and it's a testament to Mike's ability.  There may be no more fun green on a course full of 'em to have a chipping contest from off the green on.  However, I fell in love with the 15th at CD.  I'm a sucker for a great short 4 and this might be my favorite hole on the course.  Birdie is a real possibility for all comers, but trouble lurks for the unsuspecting or overly bold.  There's nothing more sublime than watching good players who instinctively feel they should have a good crack at birdie or at worst an easy par on a short hole like this walk off with a 5 or worse, which I'd imagine is a regular occurrence here.  A sublimely designed hole that I'd love to study further.  Hole goes to CD.


CD 2 Up

[Mac Plumart]

Hole 1...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 2...Kingsley 10-7 (one of the best par 3's in the world, IMO.  And 2 at The Downs didn't do it for me)
Hole 3...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 4...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 5...Crystal 10-9
Hole 6...Crystal 10-8
Hole 7...Crystal 10-8
Hole 8...Crystal 10-8
Hole 9...Kingsley 10-9 (I thought 9 at Kingsley was a truly great member's course par 3)

At the turn...

Kingsley 83; Crystal 83.  BOOM!!!

Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Kingsley 10-6 (green speed and contours don't match at all at Crystal)
Hole 12...Crystal 10-9 (I really like 12 at Crystal...soothing, interesting, and enjoyable)
Hole 13...Kingsley 10-9 (13 at Kingsley is another great members course hole.  13 at The Downs is a good hole as well.)
Hole 14...Crystal 10-9
Hole 15...Kingsley 10-9

Running update...through 15...Kingsley 141; Crystal 137.

[Mac Plumart]

I'll be out of pocket for the next few days...so I'll wrap up my match right now.

Hole 1...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 2...Kingsley 10-7 (one of the best par 3's in the world, IMO.  And 2 at The Downs didn't do it for me)
Hole 3...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 4...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 5...Crystal 10-9
Hole 6...Crystal 10-8
Hole 7...Crystal 10-8
Hole 8...Crystal 10-8
Hole 9...Kingsley 10-9 (I thought 9 at Kingsley was a truly great member's course par 3)

At the turn...

Kingsley 83; Crystal 83.  BOOM!!!

Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Kingsley 10-6 (green speed and contours don't match at all at Crystal)
Hole 12...Crystal 10-9 (I really like 12 at Crystal...soothing, interesting, and enjoyable)
Hole 13...Kingsley 10-9 (13 at Kingsley is another great members course hole.  13 at The Downs is a good hole as well.)
Hole 14...Crystal 10-9
Hole 15...Kingsley 10-9
Hole 16...Kingsley 10-8
Hole 17...TKO...fight over...Kingsley wins the hole 10-6...and Crystal is rushed to the hospital.
Hole 18...The fight is over, but if Crystal was still around, I'd give them a tie on this hole.

Finally tally...Kingsley 171; Crystal 161.


If Crystal were to tweak their mowing lines and reduce their greens speeds...we'd have a different ball game!

[Bart Bradley]

I really enjoy playing 15 at Kingsley.  It is awkward but in a good way.  Great shots are certainly required to make 4 let alone 3.  15 at Crystal is fun and has a cool fairway but I think Kingsley's hole is slightly better and certainly unique.

CD up 3 and 6 points on the 10 pt must system.

Bart

[Mike Hendren]

Sorry Mac but the 17th at Kingsley is one clumsy golf hole.  

Bogey

[Howard Riefs]

Sorry Mac but the 17th at Kingsley is one clumsy golf hole.  

Bogey

I don't disagree but how would you have made best use of that land (without moving a significant amount of dirt)?

[Mac Plumart]

Sorry Mac but the 17th at Kingsley is one clumsy golf hole.  

Bogey

Sure. But clumsy beats God-awful in my scoring system.



Oh yeah, no need to be sorry. We're just passing the time talking about golf.

[Howard Riefs]

#15 is no fan of shorter hitters. With the speed slot out of reach, there's really a very narrow landing area for your drive. Too far right and you're blocked out or need to work it around the trees. Too far left and you're faced with the ball above (lefty) or below your feet. And that's when the hole plays without the wind in your face.

The push-up green, the smallest on the course, still confounds me. All too often, my approach finds itself at the base of the green, wishing that it was possible to run one up as with many of the natural greens on the course. I'd be interested in learning why it's designed that way if anyone has the backstory.





Landing zone (for some)



Short right from 70 yards



Tarble knocks it close at the Mashie



Among my favorite views on the course: #15 green with #16 in the background



Looking back from #16 blue tees

[Matthew Lloyd]

Josh, like your idea of playing this from the tips to avoid the fairway pushing your ball out to the right.  I always seem to end up firmly behind that tree on the right edge of the fairway. Every damn time it seems like.  I either need to start hitting my tee shots further or back up to land the ball in a better spot. Since I can't seem to increase my distance without juicing, moving back to the gold tees might be my only recourse. This will also give me an additional excuse if I still can't get a par.

[Mike Hendren]

Sorry Mac but the 17th at Kingsley is one clumsy golf hole.  

Bogey

I don't disagree but how would you have made best use of that land (without moving a significant amount of dirt)?

Great question.  Why not move a little dirt (unless there's rock underneath.)

Or, rather than split the fairway with the bunker complex, how about moving up the tee slightly and placing the bunker complex at the crest of the hill on either side (probably left since I seem to recall the fairway at the bottom of the hill is flatter on that side)and cut the fairway off at the top of the hill on the opposite side.  I would think the big hitter would relish the opportunity to see his drive fly the bunkers and discover its final resting place on the fairway below.  But what do I know - they might already be doing that.

Bogey

[Matthew Sander]

Bogey,

Regarding 17 at KC, they've already eliminated the dual fairway. The left hand side was returned to rough, so now the bunker complex lies to the left of the fairway. If I read your previous post correctly, that was part of your suggestion.

Sorry to give more mileage to a premature discussion of hole 17, but I wanted to clarify for Bogey...

[Chris DeToro]

17 is a bit of a goofy hole, but I think it fits its place as more of a members, match play course as one mentioned in an earlier post.  Coming off a great scoring opportunity at 14, a grind out hole at 15, a tough, disaster-ridden par 3, now you've got another great risk/reward scoring chance at 17.  Even if you get it to the bottom of the hill, you still have a difficult mid-short iron approach and not an easy 4.  And even if your opponent can't get it to the bottom, you can make birdie laying up too

[Greg Taylor]

Does anyone else think this is far closer than is should be...?

I am reminded of a game of match play where a bogey golfer spoons it all over for 9 holes, doesn't score, but the other 9 pars or birdies and is all square versus the scratch golfer despite playing significantly inferior golf.

Straw poll: if you could join CD or The Kingsley which would you chose, and you can only vote once. My bet CD wins 85% of the votes!

Disclaimer: not played The Kingsley, but CD is one of my favorites... seeing the pics of the [what I thought was the weaker] back nine reminds me just how good the course is. To say nothing of the greens.

Great thread!

[Jud_T]

Greg,

For arguments sake let's say CD is a Doak 10 and Kingsley is an 8.  How much of a trouncing do you think it should be?  Tom probably had the match over on the 13th tee and many here have it much closer.  Taking out both homer biases the reality is probably somewhere in between.

P.S. Vegas has the over under on Kingsley in the new CG at 7, and the line may move to 6.5 when the big money gets involved...