[JimB]

Mark,

The issue I have is that I'm just not seeing the similarities you are seeing other than a fairway bunker that comes at a diagonal cross.  R10 is pretty clearly a Cape, especially if you look at it from the back tees and not the front of the front tee as it is depicted.

I've been thinking along the same line. Perhaps one timeless truth is despite looking similar from the air, so much of the strategy can only be discerned from the ground. At R10 the green angle, pitch and hazard placement all result in mandating an approach from the left which does not entail challenging the fairway bunker on the right. I can't tell for sure from the pictures and I have not played RG3 but it looks like the question on the tee is do I want to take on the left bunker to set up an easier approach. How does the green at RG3 dictate the angle of approach or does it depend on hole position?

[Sean_A]

Mark

Please do me the favour of posting an aerial image of Little Aston's 4th.  I think we have another slightly different take on a Timeless Truth.



One can see below the green runs to the rear thus making the approach from the safe drive a bit dicey, but there is more room than it appears.


Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

The oblique angle of R10's green weakens the comparison.

 (or as Claudius bloviated in Hamlet "To thine own self be true.")

    

That's a bunch of Polonius

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jim and JC,

Well, the idea of a template is an ideal. You take the original that's in the ground, a "thing," then figure out the core principles, strategies, whatever in the playing of the hole. Now you've got an idealized version that, as an ideal, may differ in meaningful ways from the original. Maybe the template ("timeless truth") is a hybrid of several holes. And the original(s) doesn't quite stack up to the ideal.

So, for example, both holes make you want to go left off the tee, assuming you're not trying to drive the green. (I think we all can agree driving the green is a strategy both holes share. Which by the way is not Cape-like. What is Cape-like is R10's use of a Cape green to encourage a drive / layup over to the left.) How does each hole make going left interesting / fun / scary or just define risk / reward?

R10 makes you think about / deal with the left half of the chevron bunker. RG3 has OB. Maybe the LH half of the R10 bunker and RG3 OB both reflect a timeless truth, ie an important piece of an idealized hole?

Sean, Little Aston 4:

[Mark Bourgeois]

How does our discussion change when we consider Riviera's 10th might have played much more like Ganton's? No greenside or short-left bunkers on R10 when the course opened:



Additionally, GMBF writes in his Riviera profile that Pine Valley's 12th served as a "broad inspiration" for R10. So that's another hole unfolded for our emergent template.

[Sean_A]

Mark

Thanks for the LA aerial.  I definitely see similarities between Ganton and LA, although the LA's 4th is more difficult if one expects to hit and hold the green because the entrance is much narrower.  Otherwise, short crossing, additional trouble at front, sides and rear, back to front green - all check.  Vardon was involved with both - could it be....?  I see all three as part of the same family.  In fact, if you post the aerial of LA's 4th, I wonder if we don't have dogleg variation of the type?

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean, I definitely see the similarities. Do the trees though, particularly down the left, take away the strategy of the left layup? It seems like it from the aerial but it doesn't seem so from the on-the-ground pics.

[Sean_A]

Mark

If one lays up too far, then yes, the trees are an issue.  Though the trees don't impact on the best line of approach.  The much more common mistake is for guys to hit their lay-up shots short of the best line, thus creating an awkward approach over the corner of the bunker.  The hole is definitely harder to drive than Ganton's example and the cross bunker is far more influential in terms of the carry and visual impact. Many think the trees down the right are good, but I would llike to see a few trimmed back to create a stronger temptation in going for it.  

Ciao  

[Mark Bourgeois]

What's interesting to me is how all three holes place the bunkers at different lengths. Obviously which is optimal depends on the prevailing conditions and the golfers involved.

Suppose we faced a flat, featureless terrain and had about 275 yards of length in which to fit a hole. (We had all the width we needed, however.) Furthermore, suppose we decided to fill that space with something along the lines of R10, G3, RG3, or LA4 (or Reverse R10 or Reverse LA4 or R10 before the short-left and greenside bunkers went in).

Would you just copy R10 or blend elements of the holes discussed? How would you orient the green? Would you elevate it or keep it at grade? How would you bunker the hole?

[Sean_A]

Sean, I definitely see the similarities. Do the trees though, particularly down the left, take away the strategy of the left layup? It seems like it from the aerial but it doesn't seem so from the on-the-ground pics.

Mark

Sorry, I double crossed myself with a tyop.  My comments in reference to the above were pertaining to LA's 14th, yet another of the type you describe.  This hole legs hard right though.




The problem with being covering the diagonal bunker, but still short!  This aspect of needing another 20-25 yards over the bunker is quite clever.


Success!


The only issue I have with the 14th is too many trees down the right.  They negate the tendency to play smash mouth golf and that isn't something which I can't understand.

Any chance you can slap up an overhead?


If I was given flat land and wanted to create the above sort of template, I would definitely keep the green at grade or just above and stick with the green moving with the line of the aggressive tee shot (ie front to back and if a legger right right to left).  If the hole is straight I would want a shallow green and if doglegged a narrow green.  I don't see much need to reinvent the wheel!  

The bunkering would have to be figured out, but I would tend to favour a large angled crossing bunker which obscures the view of the green or blocks it out entirely.

Mark - you should make your way to LA sometime.  Its a subtle course that many don't immediately appreciate, but in truth its a hare's breath from being a greatun'.  Just a bit of tree work here and there, some mowing line action and a fiddle with a few bunkers and Bobs yer uncle.  

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Is Little Aston the best parkland in England?

I certainly loved it on my visit, primarily for those bunkers.

[Mark Bourgeois]

In chronological order, RG3 -> Riv10 in 1927 -> Riv10 in 2013:





RG3 v Riv10 1927 -- although RG3's tee is not visible, in terms of alignment viz green it is not that far off Riv10's:





Holiday bonus that has little to do with the point of this post -- Riv10 1927 v 2013:



Well, gentlemen, shall our timeless truth have bunkers around the green or not?

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