Is Dornoch too easy with no wind to be Top 10?

[THuckaby2]

I'd submit each of Carnoustie and Muirfield as having teeth wind or no wind.

TH

[ChipOat]

TH:

Played each only once - windy conditions prevailed.  Were the conditions you faced benign on either?  Does DEEP rough have anything to do with those courses difficulty?

[THuckaby2]

Chip:

On the recent trip, conditions were are benign as Scotland generally allows - that is, some rain, 2-3 club wind at the most, and even then only for short periods....

And the group in general suffered big time at each.  These are two very difficult golf courses.  To put it just in general, in each case the combination of length, deep and very prevalent bunkers, AND deep rough give each teeth no matter what.  Oh, obviously pros can score at each in benign conditions, I truly believe... But they can do so anywhere, so for my money they don't count.

Mere mortals are going to have to play VERY well to achieve a good result at either of these courses, and God help you if the wind is really blowing.

That being said, screw Tiger, I own him.

TH
80 at Muirfield

[ForkaB]

Chip

Any great course--UK, US, or wherever--can be made "toothful" if you have a malevolent green committee hell-bent on "protecting" "par."  I personally don't find the great links courses, including Dornoch, any more or less "toothless" than any of the great US courses I have played.  They all can be had on the day, at least in my mind.......

PS--maybe Dornoch just has better golfers these days than PV, Merion, WF, etc.  (insert smiley face here....)

[Tom_Doak]

I do not believe that a course has to be truly difficult to be one of the great courses in the world.  If Dornoch is too easy, then so are Cypress Point and St. Andrews and maybe even Merion, and Muirfield, too, when the wind's not blowing.  So you want to put Butler National above all of them??

However, Rich, the scores you cited are no defense.  Dornoch has never had all the best players in the world on site for four days ... if it did there would be a bunch of low scores.  There would be almost anywhere.  In fact, if there weren't, there's no way the course would belong in the top ten.

[ForkaB]

Tom D

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.  I also strongly believe that if they held an Open at Dornoch, and didn't try to trick it up, more than one person would shoot lights out--maybe even breaking 260 (remember that these days it's really a par 68 with no "5's", 2-3 driveable "4's" and another 3-4 that are probably in range--or near as dammit--for today's big hitters with a following wind).  But you know something, as I've said many times before, I don't care!

Next week we'll have about as good a field (on paper) as I've ever seen for the Carnegie Shield.  I'll report back as to how the course "holds up" under the onslaught.........

[Todd_Eckenrode]

I had the pleasure to get in 4 rounds there recently, unfortunately in pretty benign conditions, and scored worse each day!  The more I studies the contouring, the worse I got!  I'm worried I may be a mental midget.

So, from this end, Dornoch was certainly no peice of cake without wind.  I'm sure it could be had, if all the bounces went your way for one glorious day, but that has a lot to do with it.  I agree with past comments, as well, that the best courses certainly yield to great play and reward so.

[ChipOat]

Rich:

Before I started this thread, I did consider the possibility that, as a group, there might be generally better players at Dornoch for medal play "singles" competitions than at PVGC, Merion and WFGC.

Knowing what I know about the quality of the field at both Pine Valley's club championship, the Crump Cup and Merion's Hugh Wilson, I confess that those US events seem more likely to win a "depth of field" analysis (however one might do that).

But without any FACTS to support that position, I decided to call it a "push" and propose my question on that basis.

[ForkaB]

chipoat

I think I did insert an "insert a smiley face here" there when I made the comment about relative field strengths....

Of course, if TE Paul is allowed to play in the Crump the standards can't be that high........ (insert another big smiley face here in cae Tom is still in a huff.....)

[ChipOat]

Tom Paul is invited to the Crump Cup due to his long history of gentlemanly qualities combined with some prior successes in that wonderful event.

The depth of the Crump Cup field that are legitimate contenders for the first 2 flights of match play is really quite impressive - generally 2-10 ex-Walker Cuppers in any given year.

[Paul Richards]

Royal Dornoch is my favorite course in the British Isles.

It's not the best, but it's right up there.

And, to boot, I scored my all-time best round there with a 71!

[Ran Morrissett]

Chip,

In order for Dornoch to be outside of the world top 10, one has to have 10 courses ahead of it. Hey, call me smart  

These eleven courses - NGLA, CPC, The Old Course, Royal Melbourne West, Pine Valley, Sand Hills, Royal County Down, Merion, Pebble Beach, Oakmont, and Shinnecock Hills - all seem in a clear class above, so Dornoch is on the outside looking in in my book.

Is it because it is 'too easy'? I'm not sure but coincidentally or not, I would say it is the easiest of the twelve courses mentioned in this post. Of course, a big part of the reason is that (like many UK courses) visitors have no option but to play a relatively short course. Is there a par five from the visitor's tee at Dornoch? Maybe not and if not, then 9 and 12 as two shotters give the course teeth relative to par.

Playing Dornoch 600-700 yards longer would probably make the topic thread a non-starter so what course are we talking about? The one we can play or the one we can only imagine? Don't we have to stick with the one that we can actually play?

Chip, anecdotically, I would have to agree with your premise. The Morrissetts first went to Dornoch in 1983 and all four of us broke 80, which has never happened before or since on a world class course (John was even 13 years old at the time). Dad had a career round in the low 70s and joined the club within two hours of walking off the course  I remember having a lacklustre 75 in still conditions in another round and being disgusted with my poor play as an 8 handicap. That feeling most assuredly wouldn't exist at any of the other eleven courses listed above.

However, in an effort to look at it beyond a handful of personal experiences, I personally think the back nine lacks another world class hole (or two) and thus, I simply don't have the same super high opinion of it as 90% plus of the posts ahead of mine.

Dornoch is very solid with no weaknesses and I think it may even be considered straightforward (which may explain in part why so many Americans love it). It doesn't have the quirk of Royal St. George's or The Old Course or Royal County Down. While everyone talks about the green complexes, I don't as I don't think the interior green contours are but so special. However, what is very special are the fairway contours and the fairway contours on a hole like 12 would be a major focus of any course profile that this site ever did on the course.

Cheers,

[johnk]

I think the whole ranking thing is baloney at this level - here's my proof:

 - Pebble (1, 11, 12, 15) and TOC (1, 8, 9, 10, 18) each have several 'less than very good' holes.  Dornoch has at most two (7, 16).
 - Location and tradition seem to be the X-factor for PB, TOC.  
 - These are the only 3 of Ran's top 11 I've played,
and I personally think Dornoch is a better course than TOC and Pebble.

As far as scoring, I definitely played by best golf this year at Dornoch.  My round in the Burghfield was also the toughest round - a real grind for the ages into the wind on the back 10.  My match against D. Kilfara was also a great match, also a real grind.  

So in sum: best golf all year in terms of score.  Most taxing mentally.  Most rewarding and memorable. Under 4 hours easily every time.

Take a suck a that Pebble...  

 

[ChipOat]

Ran:

The course I'm discussing is the one played from the "medal tees" in competitions like the club championship, Carnegie Shield, professional and open tournaments hosted by the club and, perhaps most significantly, the 1985 British Amateur.

Since it is the "championship" Dornoch on which the sub-par scores I referred to were achieved, I believe the question I posited in my initial thread is valid.

It also sounds as if you're inclined to agree.

While I'm thinking of it, along with #5 at Merion, #14 at Dornoch ("Foxy") is as pure a natural golf hole as I've ever seen.

[Stan Dodd]

Thought I would bring this back up as the results from the Shield qualifying are in. 147 was low (+7), and 161 qualified.
I'm sure Rihc will weigh in with conditions>
Cheers
Stan

[Forrest Richardson]

As an architect I often try to think of golf courses as people, for this is how it is sometimes good to understand what a course is all about in terms of its personality.

In Dornoch's case, I'd have to imagine the feeling would be much the same as a very old and wise person who has seen virtually all and done virtually all: "I've reached a point in my life when I simply don't care what others think of me."

And to that...I salute Dornoch with my greatest admiration.

[Stan Dodd]

Well done, Forrest.  

[Glen_Fergo]

Surely you can't compare inland/parkland course for difficulty in windless conditions with links courses!!

The fact is that Links courses have to be designed in such a way that thet are playable under all conditions. If you tightened up holes, put deep bunkers at the front middle of greens, water hazards next to greens and made unrealistic carries etc that would make them challenging on a world best level they would be virtually unplayable in the type of conditions that typically prevail.

Why not just cut the crap and enjoy the courses for what they are? You will never get everybody to agree on course rankings.

I played Spyglass just before the AT&T from the plates in a gale, shot 75 and feel its the hardest I ever played. I played Bethpage Black, from the back, on a still day with everything going my way and wondered what all the fuss was about!! I played again later that week in a strongish breeze and less control and felt like walking off and only remembering the first round!!!

Dornoch is a fabulous course and one of my 2 or 3 favorite golf experiences on earth.  I've also played and studied it enough to appreciate most of what's happening on each hole (including most people's least favorite - #16).

BUT:

There are more under-par rounds shot under windless conditions in both amateur and local pro tournaments at Dornoch than any great course of which I'm aware.  We're not talking 1985 British Amateur qualifying or alleged scoring in match play.  This happens with some regularity in medal play club championship, Carnegie Shield and local pro events.  And it's not just 69's that get posted, either.  64-66 is not unheard of (course record is 62 BTW).

By comparison, the supposedly now-toothless Merion almost never yields anything below (par) 70 despite the annual Hugh Wilson tournament and reasonably regular hosting of state and local championships.  Plus the odd USGA championship although you might expect more frequent flashes of brilliance at that level.

Shouldn't a "world top 10" be more difficult than Dornoch under benign conditions?  Great architecture PLUS a certain degree of difficulty?

This is why Pine Valley and Shinnecock get my votes for "best on planet".  National has a lot of brilliant stuff going on out there, but.............

[ForkaB]

Stan

For those who know "fast and firm", Dornoch last week was nirvana.  For those who profess to like it, but really don't have the experience of seeing a links course in that condition it might have seemed to them to be some sort of "We're not in Kansas anymore!" type of experience.

The color of the course was less brown than yellow.  If you had metal spikes there was that lovely soft crunching sound as you walked over the fairways and the greens.  Tee shots hit on the proper line were hugely rewarded (in terms of distance), while those just slightly errant were likely to roll into places which made hitting and staying on the green problematical.  Even from position A, many pins could be reached only through great skill or guile, as the greens were so firm and fast and their contours cast any poorly planned or executed shot into oblivion with disdain.  I have never seen the greens so fast (the greenkeeper told me that on Tuesday they were stimping at 12-13), and yet there was no "infinite putting" or even any hole position that could not be cosied up to, even from the wrong side--if you had brought your 3*** dead weight putting stroke with you.

There were forty 3 and better handicap players in the low handicap (single digit) field of 120, and over two days of qualifying there was only one subpar round (a 69).  There was probably a 1-2 club wind both days.  On the second day (Wednesday) it swirled and there were some rain showers, and only about 10 players broke 80.

All this being said, in talking at some length with many of the better and most experienced players in the field, it was agreed that if there were an Open at Dornoch, 260 would probably be the target for the pros (assuming no serious wind), as I had stated above.

Finally, to get back to chip's original question, my answer remains:  "Maybe, but so what?"

[ChipOat]

Rich Goodale:

"Maybe - but so what?" is a superb answer to my query (and my favorite response, as well).

However, the issues of "best", "great", "Top 10" etc. are recurring, and legitimate, topics of discussion on this particular DG.

The same issue has been raised for TOC around here and thee and me are pretty much in agreement (and in the minority, I believe) on that one .  Thus, I thought (and still think) that asking the question of Dornoch is appropriate.

I have a hard time with "Top 10" - "Top 2 or 3" is about the closest I can cut it.  After that, there's 20+ courses that could legitimately be on any rater's Top 10 based on personal tastes.  And I like a certain degree of difficulty WITHOUT KNEE-DEEP ROUGH before I can get ecstatic about brilliant architecture.

Great answer.

[Doug Siebert]

I played Dornoch only once back in '91, and to tell the truth always kind of wondered what the fuss was about over it.  Given how highly regarded it is by most people I figure I must be missing something and plan to return sometime.  But I wonder if this isn't part of the reason I felt this way.  I played it on a day with little wind and of course from the visitor tees (I remember #9 being a 465 par 5 I reached with a driver/PW using my good old fashion Tour Balata and steel shafted driver)  It seemed a bit too easy and straightforward compared with the other courses I saw on that trip, such as TOC, Troon, Carnoustie, Prestwick, etc.  There are some tough spots on the course, but I remember a couple of the munis I played in Troon being tougher!

I think it does detract somewhat to have a course that plays too easy, whether it is all the time, when it is very dry/wet, without wind (or conceivably with, if the wind really worked out to the player's overall benefit)

Not saying Dornoch doesn't still hold enough challenge under any conditions to make it very unlikely I'd ever see the 60s even from the visitor tees, but compared to a nearly windless day at Muirfield in 2001 when I was at the top of my form and only made a few mistakes with the full swing and still only managed an 82.  Even if I'd had a good day on the greens about the best I could have hoped for there would be 76 or so.  On a day like Tiger had for his 82, I think its extremely unlikely I'd have broken 100 even hitting the ball as well as I did there (unless maybe I had a Tiger sized gallery to help me find all the balls I'd have been hitting in the hay )

On the other hand, versus a pushover like Turnberry that plays easy even with the wind up (at least as long as it keeps under 25 mph) we wouldn't even be having this discussion about Dornoch except for the fact it is regarded far more highly than Turnberry.

I do wish I'd been able to make the Dornoch trip this May to face it from the member tees and perhaps see it in sterner weather, just didn't work out schedule-wise.  If another opportunity ever comes around I'd certainly jump at the chance, I'm sure there's much more to the course than I remember 12 years later...

[ForkaB]

chipoat

The rough was perfect--patchy and wispy, usually giving you a chance to get to the green, but with a loss of control the significance of which was magnified by the speed and firmness of the fairways, approaches and greens.

Finally, a note of "local" interest.  An occasional contributor to GCA--Andrew Biggadike of Ridgewood, NJ--won the Carnegie Shield this year.

PS--another interesting set of results will come out when the North of Scotland Championships are played at Dornoch 23/24 August (36 each day).  60 players off 2 or better competing (see the field at http://www.sgunorthgolf.com/).