Gallant GANTON GC

[Jon Wiggett]

Could the reason for Woodhall Spa being so high be it is where the EGU HQ is? Surely not Nice course which would be almost great if the back nine was as good as the front but it is not in the same league as Ganton which I would put ahead of Sunningdale though many will disagree.

Jon

[John Mayhugh]

Brian,
The heathland setting of Woodhall Spa is gorgeous, but I thought the vibe there felt a bit corporate.  Not very charming around the clubhouse, which surprised me given the way WS is so central to the town.  Did I miss something?

I can see being smitten with Woodhall Spa if it's the only heathland you've played, but if a rater made it there and hasn't played courses in the London area then I would be confused with their travel planning.

[Thomas Dai]

Reference the Ganton-Woodhall Spa debate, which courses would you guys reckon to be the top, say 25, heathland courses in the UK?
All the best.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark P

I will have to hold you responsible for dragging WS into a discussion about Ganton -- and making it about rankings to boot !

Sean

I am surprised by your (and Sheehy's) view of Ganton as narrow. I also am mildly disappointed in this 'championship links' nonsense. Actually, I think the two are related, but not in the way you've connected them. In the case of Ganton, the best way to put it is that it could be a championship links and it could be a members' links -- depending on conditioning choices and vagaries of weather. And that is Tom Paul's idea of the 'light green sheen' and Ideal Maintenance Meld.

Based on your reports and others, it sounds like Ganton has been running very fast the past couple of months (at least), and that has brought the bunkers into play more frequently.

Bottom line, Ganton is not too narrow (most times).

[Brent Hutto]

Unlike some courses I've played (Royal Dornoch comes to mind) in all honesty I can not recall being within a couple club lengths of a gorse bush over the 6-1/2 rounds I've played there. And I've played it in conditions from nearly calm up to about a 15mph breeze (and two quite different wind directions on different days).  During last year's visit in September the course was playing very, very "keen" by my standards. The club professional answered my inquiry by saying it was capable of playing faster but not by much.

The thicker, knee-high sections of rough were definitely capable of creating a lost ball situation from shots that looked very good for a long time. Even on the wide-open holes in the middle of the round, ones angle with a driver only has to be slightly off to result in a shot that rolls and rolls and bounces and rolls some more until it finds the heavy rough. And the bunkers are omnipresent, goes without saying.

The trees on the left side of the 16th do constrict the feel of the hole, combined as they are with ones knowledge of OB right. The 18th is the weakest second-shot hole on the course although I find the tee shot so thrilling that I'm willing to somewhat give the last 150 yards of the hole a pass for the tree and damp turf.

And granted, this is not an Old Course type experience where you can stand most places on the course and see for a mile in every direction. Obviously some of you folks play a lot more of that type course than I do and have developed a strong preference for wide open vistas. I am perhaps lacking in GCA bona fides by admitting that a bit of vegetation breaking up the expanse of a golf course feels more comfortable to me than playing out in the middle of a huge treeless plain. Heck I find Notts/Hollinwell to be just about an ideal mixture of grand views interspersed with big old trees (admittedly, that's not a links course like Ganton).

But that's just me. Makes me quirky by local standards hereabout, I suppose. It does seem odd I could go through more than a dozen lost golf balls in six rounds and never be in danger of pricking myself on a Gorse bush, given the perception that Gorse is a key element of the course.

[Brent Hutto]

I've played maybe 1/10 as many English courses as yourself, Brian. But from that moderately small list, the comparison between Walton Heath and Ganton is one I can chime in on.

Walton Heath was my first non-USA course ever and my first exposure to anything quite like Heathland golf. In comparison to Ganton I'd have to deem Walton Heath a far more appealing piece of property and honestly a more pleasant place to spend a day. But hole after hole, shot after shot, the bunkering at Ganton is so excellent and its effect on the way a round is played is so invigorating that I would play Ganton over Walton Heath about 7 to 3 given a choice over 10 rounds.

I've commented before that for all the talk expended on this site about "bunkering this" or the "bunkers that" it wasn't until my first time at Ganton that I ever thought bunkers were more than eye candy or simply penal hazards. Bunker Ganton akin to Walton Heath (or Dornoch or Notts or 'most any other course I've ever played) and I'd rate it as a fine and challenging course on outstanding links turf. But to my surprise I find it elevated in my own pantheon almost entirely because of the sand traps. Heck of an achievement, that.

[Brent Hutto]

Honestly, for me it isn't the gorse and trees. I adore heather. I wish every golf course I played was in a climate and soil that allowed its use as a primary hazard and a beautification/definition element in the visuals. At Walton Heath combine that with the perfectly degree of rolling topography, enough to add interest by elevation change and camber but not so much as to make the walk a chore, and you get a very, very appealing course in my book.

Also, when I was there in 2006 their tree clearance and heather regeneration program was in early days. It's my understanding that it's more open now than even then (much less than in the 1990's).

[Tom_Doak]

Could the reason for Woodhall Spa being so high be it is where the EGU HQ is? Surely not Nice course which would be almost great if the back nine was as good as the front but it is not in the same league as Ganton which I would put ahead of Sunningdale though many will disagree.

Jon

It might be just the other way around actually.  When I visited Woodhall Spa (three trips but the most recent 20 years ago), Mr Hotchkin's son was still in charge and the vibe was homey rather than "corporate".  Seeing that description was a bit of a shocker.  The two guys who first told me of the place were Tom Weiskopf and Tony Jacklin who both loved it, but of course they aren't as discerning as Mark P.

Personally I'm a fan of both Ganton and Woodhall Spa.  Neither is a 10 on the Doak scale but both are either a 7 or an 8, and deserve a great deal of respect.  I think both benefit a bit from being away from London where there are so many heathland courses they all blend together; you could throw Alwoodley in the same category.  Each is just a little bit more distinct and that helps them in rankings exercises, even though none is really as good as Swinley or St George's Hill.

[Mark Pearce]

Tom,

Sad that you feel the need to attempt to put down a discussion you disagree with with a cheap shot.  I'll ignore that and trust you were just a bit cranky.  Tell us, how did Weiskopf and Jacklin feel Ganton compared to Woodhall Spa?

[Sean_A]

Sean

I am surprised by your (and Sheehy's) view of Ganton as narrow. I also am mildly disappointed in this 'championship links' nonsense. Actually, I think the two are related, but not in the way you've connected them. In the case of Ganton, the best way to put it is that it could be a championship links and it could be a members' links -- depending on conditioning choices and vagaries of weather. And that is Tom Paul's idea of the 'light green sheen' and Ideal Maintenance Meld.

Based on your reports and others, it sounds like Ganton has been running very fast the past couple of months (at least), and that has brought the bunkers into play more frequently.

Bottom line, Ganton is not too narrow (most times).

Mark

I can't get behind "most times".  Bottom line, Ganton was in just about perfect condition so far as f&f is concerned and the width of the course didn't support that aspect of the maintenance. Just as with wind, width has to take into account keen conditions.  People keep mentioning the bunkers, but the design I saw was more about short grass VS long grass/trees/gorse.  The bunkers often didn't create tiger/rabbit scenarios and there was more of a thread the needle or else feel about the course rather than one where temptation was the order of the day.

I can get behind Ganton being a course which could be all things to all people, but than when talking about potential many places could be described in the same way.  It was quite clear to me that Ganton is a great course regardless, but the course I saw wasn't as fun nor attractive as it should or could be - such a pity.  

Tom D

Sounds like when you saw Woodhall it hadn't been sold to the EGU yet.  Woodhall is now quite firmly in the tourist rota, a huge percentage are British and more specifically English - not surprising since the EGU own it.  

I don't think there is anywhere near the divide in quality between Ganton and Woodhall as others see, but I do think Ganton is great and Woodhall is not.  That said, I much prefer Ganton, mainly because the greens are more interesting and I prefer Ganton's flow.  About the only thing I didn't like about Ganton's actual holes was the lack of par 3s and one was quite long - like there weren't enough long approaches to be had elsewhere.  

Ciao

    

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Sad that you feel the need to attempt to put down a discussion you disagree with with a cheap shot.  I'll ignore that and trust you were just a bit cranky.  Tell us, how did Weiskopf and Jacklin feel Ganton compared to Woodhall Spa?

You are right, I should not have disparaged either Of those two fellows by suggesting they were not discerning.

I have never asked either gentleman about Ganton.  I would be surprised if Tom Weiskopf has ever been there, and I'm away from my office so I can't check.  Perhaps I'll run into T Jacklin around Birmingham this week, or is he full time in Florida nowadays?

[John Mayhugh]

Tom,
Why the snarkiness towards the OPINION someone shares about a course you haven't seen in 20 years?

[Mark Bourgeois]

 It would be interesting to know the widths of some of the landing areas such as on 1, 2, 4, 7, 9, 13, 14 & 18.  

My rough measure of fairway landing areas -- 210 yards from spot 1/3 forward of back of member tee using Google Earth:

1 = 43 yards (bunker to bunker)
2 = 33 yards
4 = 27 yards
9 = 32 yards
13 = 26 yards (right on the RH bunker. Move 1 yard closer to tee and width is 42 yards; move 5 yards farther and the width is 34 yards.)
14 = 49 yards -> note: I chose 185 yards off tee as 210 would put golfer through the fairway and no one would hit a 210-yard shot on that hole
18 = 44 yards (note: I measured perpendicular to the line of the tee shot rather than perpendicular to the direction of the fairway

Again, these are fairway widths not playing corridors.

(If you figure on a longer carry than 210 you're probably playing farther back, so hopefully it all comes out in the wash.)

And Brian: the 18th is not an abomination. It is the closing hole of an excellent match play course. The 17th is the decider hole and is about winning with a par; 18 is about winning with a birdie.

Yes, it could lose trees, although not for the reason or location I suspect you're complaining about but rather to bring back the original Pandy and its associated strategies.

[Sean_A]

Okay

That is 36 yards on average.  Now chuck in lay of the land (2, 9, 14 & 18 are sloped toward trouble), firm conditions (how much width is that worth - minimum 5 yards, maybe 10), wind (even a 10-12 mph wind can have disastrous effects on fairways that narrow with that much trouble about)and blindness (9 & 18).  36 yards ain't wide when there is brutal rough and cavern bunkers waiting.  Plus you left out 16.  So far as I am concerned, you made my point.  I know you may say but firm conditions aren't normal, but they are ideal and the set-up should accommodate perfect conditions. I am very happy to agree to disagree with you and say Ganton is not firing close to all cylinders in its present state.  Thats okay, we all look for different things in golf and I am on record a million times as to my views about championship golf.

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

I don't want to keep belaboring my own meager comments but I'll speculate on more time on the night and day difference between my own impressions and the ones you guys came away with this summer.

Maybe Ganton when it's playing super-firm and the breeze is up just happens to suit a very short and relatively straight hitter. Maybe I just don't hit it far enough to have seen so many balls running across or through fairways and into trouble (or into the trees and gorse bushes of which I was hardly even aware). I hit my fair share of approach shots out of the wispy rough and lord knows I rolled into plenty of bunkers. But if each fairway had been 20 yards wider than it was (September, 2012) I'm not sure it would have saved me more than a stroke a round or something like that.

So that's my final chime-in on this thread. It's the first time I can ever recall having such a totally opposite experience of a golf course as any of the GCA folks with whose games I am somewhat familiar...

[Jon Wiggett]

I have never found Ganton to be narrow in any shape or form though I was quite surprised at how the trees appear to have encroached in on 16. Looking at the widths given by Mark it would appear to be quite wide enough though I do not recall Sean as being petty over such things. I guess I will have to try and get across for a game during the winter .

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

Of course appropriate width is a matter of opinion.  Ganton is not different than most any other championship GB&I course - nearly all play tighter than I prefer.  My position is that proper width will seem excessive when conditions are benign.  TOC has always been the poster child for this attitude and it has over the past 110 years slowly been made to step in line with all other championship courses.  Its a great shame because soon there won't be any proper examples of width in championship courses to which we can point to as examples.  Memories and photos will fade until eventually folks will think an average of 35 yards of width on hard sloping fairways in wind with severe punishment for missing the short grass is a wide course - its not something I want any part of.  It may sound harsh, but thats my opinion.  To me, the loss of width is one of the great golf crimes of my lifetime.  I can't think of anything else which has been so detrimental to my enjoyment of the game.  

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean, three thoughts:

1) the widths I gave were for fairways not playing corridors. I wish they'd widen the fairways in spots, yes, but let's keep in mind the playing corridors are wider than the numbers supplied earlier. I am far from straight but the only two holes where the corridor widths bothered me were 4 and 9. We may be stuck with the trees down the right of 9 given potential boundary issues. Under pressure I could be persuaded to add 18.

2) this notion that Ganton has lost some width may have merit insofar as fairways could be wider in spots and conditions could sometimes be slower. Additionally, some trees and gorse here and there could go. But the real constraint on many if not most holes is not mowing lines or playing corridors but fairway bunkers. And those bunkers, unlike places like Merion, are not marooned in rough. Bunkers touch fairway. To make your argument that Ganton has narrowed its course in a meaningful sense requires one to conclude either the course plays faster than it used to (consistently around the clock) or that the club moved its bunkers towards center.

3) adding width at Ganton via expanded mowing lines and removal of trees actually could present a harder course. The ball would be carried out to the gorse and the wind off the moors would have unfettered access to golfers' airborne balls. More 'championship links-like', to appropriate your term. If trees come out then playing corridors will have to be widened, although not necessarily fairway widths.

[Sean_A]

Mark

I don't have anything more to say. We have a very basic disagreement over what makes for optimal strategic golf.  You think Ganton is awesome and I think Ganton could be awesome.  No worries.

Ciao  

[Mark Pearce]

I played at Ganton on Friday evening.  I hate to say it but I am coming round to the view that Sean is right about the width.  There is quite a lot of thick rough around bunkers that are clearly in play and some of the playing corridors are quite narrow.  It's a great course but the generous use of a mower, a chainsaw and the removal of some gorse could improve it significantly.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Let's do this then. Next full moon we brave the werewolves out on the moors and have a Chainsaw Massacre party out there. I'll make the masks but who's got a Triplex??

[Sean_A]

Mark

Cheers.  It is possible to have width, interest, challenge and fun all in one design.  The saddest thing is the Green Keeper's great efforts are largely lost in green soup 

Ciao

[Niall C]

I played at Ganton on Friday evening.  I hate to say it but I am coming round to the view that Sean is right about the width.  There is quite a lot of thick rough around bunkers that are clearly in play and some of the playing corridors are quite narrow.  It's a great course but the generous use of a mower, a chainsaw and the removal of some gorse could improve it significantly.

Mark


How much of the lushness of the rough is down to the unseasonal weather ? I wonder what it would be like in a normal summer, whatever that is. It reminds me when we played Silloth in the Buda Cup and the lushness of the course then was something I hadn't seen in all the years I was playing down there.


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Niall - go easy with comments on unseasonable weather. I know you guys haven't had much of a summer but down here it's been pretty dry and everything's rather baked. What it's been like in East Yorkshire, I couldn't say.

[Sean_A]

Niall - go easy with comments on unseasonable weather. I know you guys haven't had much of a summer but down here it's been pretty dry and everything's rather baked. What it's been like in East Yorkshire, I couldn't say.

Yes, a lot of courses in The Midlands are dry.  The weather has been cold, but relatively little rain.  Although, I played Burnham the other day and its not dried out...just normal firm. 


Ciao