Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match

[DMoriarty]

Does this mean I am off the Christmas Card list?

Seriously Tom, name calling ought to be beneath you. Is it really so awful that I dared discuss whether a remote first tee and a non-returning routing might potentially impact walking?

While I do appreciate your taking the time to explain it further, I have followed DR threads and had some understanding of the reasons for the unusual routing before I posted. It makes sense to me why you did what you did, and I am sure the results are spectacular.  Knowing those involved, I have never doubted that you had your reasons and that you would pull it off.

Nonetheless, you know as well as I do that putting butts and bags in a cart creates an inertia for riding, even at one of your courses.  I am not sure why it is so controversial when I say as opposed to when you say it.

[Sean_A]

Maybe homerism is a big problem in all of golf, but it most certainly is on this site.  Yes, Dave comes across as short and testy at times, but his point is valid.  We are looking at a developing trend where its okay to completely disconnect the course from the house.  I think its a bad trend, but hopefully its a short lived trend.  At the end of the day, if the members are okay with a cart shuttle, then there really isn't an issue.  However, if we are talking about routings I think it very reasonable to believe the house is part and parcel of that process.  When we have cart shuttles it suggests to me the site is not totally suitable for its purpose or that an error in judgement was made.  Its difficult to believe C&C and Doak made a huge error in judgement so I have to believe the site(s) is not totally suitable for its purpose.  That isn't too dissimilar from mountain golf requiring carts even if parts are very walkable.  An archie had a brief and fulfilled it to the best of his ability.  Some people think its wonderful and others have questions - whats the issue here? 

I can't see what the problem is in saying a site isn't completely ideal, afterall, there aren't that many courses in the world with very good sites which produced great courses - its a rarity for both bits to fall in place.  In the end, I can't see the reason folks would get angry with each over this - its a bloody golf course for heaven sake. 

Ciao

[Jaeger Kovich]

I think one of the coolest parts of the Dismal Routing is that starting on #6 tee, the rest of the walk is downhill. Obviously the are relative high points and uphill shots, such as the 2nd shot at #7, and parts of 10, 12, and 14 etc, but the course gradually wanders down something like 200ft over the last 13 holes, making it as walkable as possible. Pasatiempo, and medium difficulty walk employs this feature in its routing mid-back 9, and it makes a huge impact on the walkability of a great course.

[Jim Colton]

Through all the sausage, I think it does raise an interesting broader point...are golf courses leaving something on the table by constraining themselves to returning nines or an 18th hole that finishes by the clubhouse? Obviously all of your great classic courses finish where they started because they were built before the cart age. But now they could hypothetically switch things around and free themselves of the constraint. If it meant improving the 18 holes on the ground, would you do it?

Sitting in Ringneck lodge, I am trying to envision whether Ballyneal, with returning nines and an 18th hole a short climb (longer if you are carrying two bags, which I often am forced to do) away from the clubhouse, might be even better if it deshackled itself from these constraints. Would it impact the walking culture of the club? My head hurts thinking about it.  Maybe it would've fared better in this boxing match.

Tom, now that you've done Dismal River, would you be more open to considering that kind of routing in the future? Or say if a club came to you for renovation with 16 great holes, extra land, but a weak 1st/2nd or 17th/18th hole, would you consider proposing finding two new holes and starting/finishing in a remote spot?

[Sean_A]

Jim

I am always suspicious when folks say the land near the house won't yield good holes.  If we are only talking about a few holes, shouldn't any decent archie be able to build two good holes from flat land?  Where is it written that every hole has to be great even though no course comes close to achieving that?

Unless we are talking about odd properties (which we seem to more and more to be honest), the bottom line is either starting/finishing near the house is a priority or it isn't.  I hope it remains a priority because it means walking will more likely be a priority when routing a course.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't buy this notion that a "walking culture" is promoted by mandating walking.  The problem at Dismal is that they offer the golfer a choice.  This would be as big a non-issue as it is at Bandon and Ballyneal if walking was mandated on the Red.

Very few if any golfers who visit Bandon restrict their rounds to one course because they are shuttled from the 18th green of say Pacific to the first tee at Trails.  The resort would be far less interesting if every course was built in a wagon wheel fashion where everything returns to a central 40 story clubhouse and lodge eliminating the need for shuttles.

On a more global note: Culture does not thrive under a mandate.  If you want to promote walking it is best done through example by those who choose to walk in the face of other options.  I see few role models in the people who walk to work because they have to as compared to those who choose to walk because of the socioeconomic benefits.  

[Michael George]

Eric - I agree fully with you.  Some of the best courses that I have ever played require transportation to the tee or from 18 green.   The greatest example is Bandon Dunes.  Only 1 course is walkable from the clubhouse to the first tee and from the 18 green.  Otherwise, you take shuttles to Bandon Trails, Pacific Dunes and Old Macdonald.  Same with many courses at Pinehurst.  Sand Hills is the same.  Kinloch requires carts from 8 green to 10 tee and 18 green to the clubhouse. 

However, people should not equate the ride to and from the 1st tee and 18 green as an indication of walkability of the golf course.  I actually think it is a relatively easy walk from 1 tee to 18 green.  In fact, I think it is an easier walk than both Ballyneal and Sand Hills from the 1st tee to the 18th green.  I also think it is an easier walk than other places praised for its walking only policies, like Bandon Trails and Pikewood National. 

So, I honestly think that the sole issue here is Dismal River's decision to allow carts.

David - the problem is not with your point, which essentially comes down to not liking cart golf ....it is with the argumentative way in which you constantly present it and the lack of recognition for valid points made by others, like the analogies to Sand Hills.   

[Jason Thurman]

Sean, I'm not sure if you've been to the sandhills of Nebraska or not. I understand your point about the idea that a good architect should be able to build interesting holes even on flat land. The problem is that there is no flat land for miles and miles in that region.

There simply are slopes that are too severe for good golf holes. There are other dune formations that may not work within the context of a routing. And heavy earth moving isn't necessarily an answer either due to the innate instability of the region.

Not to mention the fact that, while an architect might be able to force a good hole or two that leave the clubhouse and return to it, there's a very distinct possibility that they would leave out one of the best holes in the world. That particular region just has such great terrain and soil that I think it would be a shame to not use the best of it and end up with a course that has a significant letdown or two all in the name of preventing a 5 minute ride on a course that already required an 8 hour commute.

I'm also not convinced this trend of first tees and 18th greens located far from the clubhouse is a new one. Several courses at Pinehurst require a shuttle or rather long walk, and wasn't it the nation's first real golf resort? Of course the routings have changed since the resort opened, but it's not like this trend just started in 1995.

I can't imagine anyone looking at the courses and discussion posted in this thread about two obviously exceptional courses and saying "Yeah, but you have to ride in a cart for 5 minutes at one of them." I'd still want to play Dismal River if they required a prostate exam before and after each round. And really, can someone explain to me why it's ok to ride in a car on the way to the parking lot but it's unbearable to ride in a cart shuttle once you arrive? I really want to understand that differentiation.

[Michael George]

Maybe it would've fared better in this boxing match.

Jim:

We are talking about 2 of the best golf courses in the US.  When you get to that level, any "ranking" is solely a matter of preference.  As I indicated in my last post, I find it difficult to rank one ahead of the other.    

Personally, I am a guy that really gravitates toward the sheer beauty of a place.  While I love great golf, it is also my excuse for seeing amazing places.  I probably gave Dismal River a slight bump because of how beautiful the area is.  On the contrary, if I was you and a pure walking course was one of my joys, I would probably have given Ballyneal the nod.  

Bottom line, each place is so good that it can be the ideal club for different people  The fact that Ballyneal is the perfect place for you is cool, appropriate and very deserving.  The fact that Dismal River is the perfect place for Mac is likewise cool, appropriate and very deserving.  

[Bruce Wellmon]

Jason,
I am not planning to visit Dismal.  

[Josh Tarble]

To me, the question is; would you rather have an average to above-average hole that returns to the teeing area of #1 or would you rather have an exceptional hole that requires a 500 yard walk once you're done?  I know my answer.

[Jim Franklin]

Let's see the boxing match between the two Dismal courses. What round does it end?

[Ben Sims]

So if I am reading all of this correctly, the assertion of a couple of purists--with absolutely zero first hand knowledge--is that a half dozen or so destination, private clubs that have longish gaps between the clubhouse and course or 18th and 1st greens equals a trend in golf architecture?

GCA.com loses some of its validity in its contributions to golf architecture when it indirectly asserts--as it has done on the last two pages of this thread--that places like Dismal River Red are somehow indicative of the greater golf architecture world.  It's one spectacular course that 1% of golfers will ever hear about, much less play.  It's impact isn't to be negated,  but it isn't to be inflated beyond scope.  I think that's what David and Sean are doing.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's see the boxing match between the two Dismal courses. What round does it end?

This is for the Intercontinental Championship.  Sometimes the Heel wins.  On my recent visit we chose to play the White course the first day ignoring the Red.  Appetizer vs Desert.  I honestly can't tell you who would win.

[Jim Franklin]

Let's see the boxing match between the two Dismal courses. What round does it end?

This is for the Intercontinental Championship.  Sometimes the Heel wins.  On my recent visit we chose to play the White course the first day ignoring the Red.  Appetizer vs Desert.  I honestly can't tell you who would win.

Let's get it on.

[Chris Johnston]

I think some are trying to find flaw in something outstanding.  Maybe it's just human nature....maybe they just don't like Dismal River - hard to believe as lord knows its a very friendly place, exceptional golf, and a great experience.

I recall our discussing that we wanted the best 18 holes possible.  Tom and his team delivered, very well.  The site?...very special.  I guess you have to see Dismal River but, like Bandon, we have no concern at all with driving a bit to a course.  Like Sand Hills, you also drive your cart to your cabin, so carts are pretty important to the entire operation. 

To have 18 exceptional holes in a routing that returns to a set point/place is almost impossible.  That's why most courses have a mediocre stretch, or a hole that may not quitet fit in the routing.  As shown in this thread, Dismal Red doesn't have a mediocre stretch.  18 exceptional holes and terrific variety of holes.  Give me that every time! 

The walking/riding debate is, to me, silly.  We allow the player to make the choice to walk or ride, most play 36 to 54 holes a day, and few (if any) walk all day.  We also have members who have had hips replaced, bad backs, hangovers, or are older or bring guests who are...none of which want to, or can comfortably, walk.  Maybe some think we should remove them from the enjoyment of this great game?  At the Red, the folks who prefer (or insist upon) walking will find a great walk ahead.  No problem.  It takes, maybe, 3-4 minutes to get back to the first tee from 18.  No problem.  It takes, maybe, 6 minutes to get back to the clubhouse for lunch.  No problem. 

Tom's course really is "that good", and no one involved need apologize, or defend good work. 

Thanks to the JK's for the time taken on a cool thread.  Both courses are a ton of fun and each is a gift to golf.

[Jerry Kluger]

We all love these courses built on sand but there is one drawback - walking on the soft sand, especially between greens and tees.  That is what is always the challenge to me. That walk up to the clubhouse at BN isn't too bad except for the soft sand - if it was grass it would be no problem.  Some courses have put in surfaces which make it easier to walk and they certainly are appreciated by old guys like myself.  Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Bandon and Streamsong are all examples of this but my worst experience with sand was at Chambers Bay where I hit a ball off the fairway and the climb down and then back up in the large sandy waste area was a really tough challenge. Speaking of carts, I remember at Bandon Trails there was a staff member with a cart at #13 green who drove us up to #14 tee.

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's see the boxing match between the two Dismal courses. What round does it end?

This is for the Intercontinental Championship.  Sometimes the Heel wins.  On my recent visit we chose to play the White course the first day ignoring the Red.  Appetizer vs Desert.  I honestly can't tell you who would win.

Let's get it on.

I will post the results on my MySpace page.

[John Cowden]

Well said and well summarized, Chris.  Thanks for that.  

Jerry, the ride up to the 14th tee at Trails is an amenity I will never object to.  Tough to hit that tee shot while gasping for breath with a 100+ pulse.  

[Jim Franklin]

I think some are trying to find flaw in something outstanding.  Maybe it's just human nature....maybe they just don't like Dismal River - hard to believe as lord knows its a very friendly place, exceptional golf, and a great experience.

I recall our discussing that we wanted the best 18 holes possible.  Tom and his team delivered, very well.  The site?...very special.  I guess you have to see Dismal River but, like Bandon, we have no concern at all with driving a bit to a course.  Like Sand Hills, you also drive your cart to your cabin, so carts are pretty important to the entire operation. 

To have 18 exceptional holes in a routing that returns to a set point/place is almost impossible.  That's why most courses have a mediocre stretch, or a hole that may not quitet fit in the routing.  As shown in this thread, Dismal Red doesn't have a mediocre stretch.  18 exceptional holes and terrific variety of holes.  Give me that every time! 

The walking/riding debate is, to me, silly.  We allow the player to make the choice to walk or ride, most play 36 to 54 holes a day, and few (if any) walk all day.  We also have members who have had hips replaced, bad backs, hangovers, or are older or bring guests who are...none of which want to, or can comfortably, walk.  Maybe some think we should remove them from the enjoyment of this great game?  At the Red, the folks who prefer (or insist upon) walking will find a great walk ahead.  No problem.  It takes, maybe, 3-4 minutes to get back to the first tee from 18.  No problem.  It takes, maybe, 6 minutes to get back to the clubhouse for lunch.  No problem. 

Tom's course really is "that good", and no one involved need apologize, or defend good work. 

Thanks to the JK's for the time taken on a cool thread.  Both courses are a ton of fun and each is a gift to golf.

Well said. The most important item is to get the best course you can. While I have not played the Red, anything that compares favorably to Ballyneal (and win the boxing match) has got to be GREAT.

[Terry Lavin]

I agree with Franklin and Johnston.  I still hold Sand Hills as my very favorite golf experience ever and I never considered marking it down because of the cart trip to and from the golf course.  Given the scale of these places, in a somewhat perverse way, the cart trip out on the "range" actually lends to the experience.  

[Brandon Urban]

I agree with Franklin and Johnston.  I still hold Sand Hills as my very favorite golf experience ever and I never considered marking it down because of the cart trip to and from the golf course.  Given the scale of these places, in a somewhat perverse way, the cart trip out on the "range" actually lends to the experience.  

This is exactly what I was thinking. I enjoyed the cart trek to the first tee at Dismal Red and Sand Hills just as much as the short walk to the first tee at Ballyneal and Prairie Dunes. For me it built up the anticipation for the round. I could give a flying leap if I have to take a cart ride out there. I don't view it any differently than driving my car to my home course. When you're at one of these destination clubs the cabin is your house and the cart is yor vehicle. Whatever gets me to the first tee isn't important whether it's my feet or wheels. It's the golf course that matters.

As far as the walkability once you strike your first drive, I put the Red right up there with Ballyneal and Prairie Dunes as the best walks in golf that I have experienced... and that was before the bridge was built.

[Mac Plumart]

As far as the walkability once you strike your first drive, I put the Red right up there with Ballyneal and Prairie Dunes as the best walks in golf that I have experienced... and that was before the bridge was built.

Yeah, but BUrban...what do you know?  You've only walked that course 100 holes at a time! 

 

[Brandon Urban]

As far as the walkability once you strike your first drive, I put the Red right up there with Ballyneal and Prairie Dunes as the best walks in golf that I have experienced... and that was before the bridge was built.

Yeah, but BUrban...what do you know?  You've only walked that course 100 holes at a time! 

 

Hey Mac- I know how some guys on this site like to disparage others for inaccurate or untrue statements so I want to help you out before that happens. It was 120!

[Mac Plumart]

And a few holes kicking me and Hogan's a$$ on your way to a 5th Major flight championship.

Man, I hate you!