Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match

[John Kavanaugh]

Congrats to Dismal River. Ballyneal had a nice run.

For the judges, how would you score DR Red vs Sand Hills, the defending world champ?

Jim,

Who won the free round at Ballyneal you were offering for best predicting the results?

[Michael George]

In the post that no one was waiting for...and deservingly so.  The Russian judge, still waiting for his bribe, just gives the final score.

17-Ballyneal 10-9
18-Dismal River 10-9

Dismal River Red wins 1 up on my card....and honestly that is where the card should fall I this match- as almost a dead heat. Both are incredible golf courses.

I believe the preference between the 2 courses are determined by a bunch of different factors:

Walking - Ballyneal is a better walking golf course. When walking, there is a value to walking out of the clubhouse to the 1st tee and finishing your round at the clubhouse. Meanwhile, Dismal River requires a cart ride down and back to the course.

Scenery- Dismal River.  This is mostl likely why I give the nod to Dismal River Red. The chop hills are pretty. The Sandhills of Nebraska are stunning.  That ledge along the river is just dominates the landscape of DRR. The blowouts are just enormous in this area of the country. It is just a very pretty and peaceful setting.

Greens- do you like wild and undulating,you will like Ballyneal.  Do you like subtle and more layoff the land, you will like DRR.

Clubhouse/accommodations - do you want  the western feel, you will like DR. If you like a more traditional golf club feel, you will like Ballyneal.

There are others, but you get  the idea that both are great places that are just joys to be at.  

[Joe Stansell]

I had the pleasure of playing two rounds each on Dismal Red and Ballyneal this past summer. I enjoyed both but my overall impression was significantly different than the outcome of this bout. I'm left wondering if a fairer fight would be lining up holes that share similar traits (e.g., Ballyneal #3 vs. Dismal Red #16; or Ballyneal #4 vs. Dismal Red #8) and score based on that. In any event, thanks for an entertaining read.

[DMoriarty]

Walking - Ballyneal is a better walking golf course. When walking, there is a value to walking out of the clubhouse to the 1st tee and finishing your round at the clubhouse. Meanwhile, Dismal River requires a cart ride down and back to the course.

This is one (of many) factors where the matchplay/boxing format doesn't seem to do justice to these types of comparisons.

Despite Barney's efforts to spin the "dead-end" nature of the routing at DR into a positive, I can't imagine it does much for creating a walking culture at Dismal.  I don't doubt DR is walkable, but there is a difference between a walkable course and a walking course. I have trouble imagining a walking course where one needs a cart to get to the first hole and a cart to get from the last back to the first.  And yes I do feel somewhat the same way about Sand Hills, although at Sand Hills there is a cabin at 1/18 and I don't need to catch a taxi to get back to the first tee.

I wonder how these features impact the number of walkers, especially second round walkers?

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

I'm going to give you a pass only because you have never seen the course. The fact of the matter is, Red is more walkable because the 18th does not return to the 1st. Before you ask another series of inane questions please see the course yourself or go back and read the many other threads that have explained how the routing of Red works and was conceived.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
I see it the same as when you show up to play with a group and everyone else in riding. You either take the path of least resistance and ride as well, or you stick with your plan and you walk.

The Red course at DR is very walkable, as walkable as any course out there, if we consider what we are doing while playing our round. Yes, you have to take a cart to the first tee. If you leave it there, it will be taken to the 18th green for you. You walk, then drive back to the first tee and walk again if you wish. It really isn't any harder then that. And while I know you and others will use that as some huge negative against the course, it would be nice if for once you asked why, and the why is because the routing made for an awesome course. Different yes, but since when is that an automatic negative?

If we have to factor in what it takes to get to the first tee, then shouldn't all courses be right outside your back door?  That is of course an extreme viewpoint, but the reality is it takes great effort to get to the Sand Hills, so why a 5 minute cart ride to the first tee should be a demerit is beyond me.

To me it is like an argument I hear all the time about how both 9s should return to the house. Think of all the great courses people are missing who subscribe to this idea as an absolute.

I encourage you to go see DR for yourself.

[John Cowden]

The ride out to the first tee (9th tee, too) as well as the ride back to the house enhances the special and remote vibe for me.  In a 36 hole day at DR, I'll walk one, ride one, regardless of which course.  (I'm older than many of you).  When walking Nicklaus, I return to my cart at Jack's Shack.  When walking Doak, my cart awaits just to the left of the 18th green.  I detest carts, but I have absolutely no issues or complaints about these arrangements.  (The daily pp cart fee is a separate matter, but I'll share those views privately with Chris).  

[Jud_T]

I agree with Don here on both counts.  1). If a course is set up to have readily available shuttles, as at Diamante, it doesn't affect the walkability or even walking culture at all and 2). To give up 2,3,4+ better holes to have returning nines seems the height of silliness to me, although it's quite important to others.  If convenience is your priority over golf fine, but it seems a bit hypocritical for guys to pour over every blade of grass in a knockdown GCA thread on a course only to happily give up 10-20% of their course for lesser ground to accomodate a house and returning nines.

[Morgan Clawson]

Great thread guys!

I enjoyed the pacing of the rounds. Taking your time improved the quality of the content.

It's great to know that Dismal Doak matched-up so closely with an icon.

Terrific photos.

Looking forward to seeing it soon.

[Michael George]

Dismal  Red is very walkable once you get to the first tee. It is similar to Sand Hills in that respect.   So it is not a negative.   However, I do think that effects your "walking culture", which Balyneal is very dedicated toward preserving.  

Do I care?  No because I enjoy the option of walking and carts and will regularly do both. Also, I enjoy golf with my father and can't do it anymore on walking courses.  However, for those that love that the walking only culture, Ballyneal is probably more suited for that individual.  Likewise, if you ever want to take a cart, you can't join Ballyneal. Really don't think it is all too controversial as all clubs should not be the same.

Likewise, if you love pure beauty, the sand hills are prettier than the chop hills.   Again, not really controversial as the dunes are just more majestic there.  Plus, you have to drive a couple more hours to get that beauty.  

[DMoriarty]

Don and Jud,  Thanks for your responses.  Don, I think you are being a tad sensitive when you accuse me of using the issue as "some huge negative against the course."  To the country, I am sure I would love the course and I have tremendous respect how hard TD and his crews work to make their courses walker friendly, so I don't doubt that between the 1st tee and 18th green that the course is walkable.   And I have read and understand your explanations as to "why" but I am not entirely sold on it perhaps because it sounds an awful lot like the explanation always given whenever the cart issue comes up.  And there are consequences to such decisions, intended or not.

Don you compared the situation to a walker being paired with three cart ballers.  This is probably a pretty good way of looking at it.  Not many golfers are so diehard about walking that they will "stick with their plan" and walk in that situation. It is just easier, less socially awkward, and less complicated to ride in that situation.   As you say, "the path of least resistance" is to ride.  While I am no Melvyn on this issue, I prefer situations, golf courses, and golf architecture where the path of least resistance is to walk.  That is my take on golf architecture whether at Dismal or anywhere, and IMO it is a legitimate concern when discussing gca.

And I am not the only one who is concerned about the impact of packing butts into a golf carts to transport them to remote tees. Here is a quote from Tom Doak from a recent thread on Rock Creek, with my emphasis added:

The most difficult part of the routing was the part I solved first -- where to cross the creek at the top end, and how to get up to that point.  I had been considering a routing like we built at Dismal River, that started from a remote starting point and played back to the lodge, because I was concerned that the first few holes would be too steeply uphill to be walkable.  But I started trying to avoid that once I realized that everyone would get in a cart to get up to a remote starting point, and once I'd walked around the property for a few days, I thought that the climb might be manageable.

My concern is no different than his, so I don't quite understand why you guys treat this like a complete non-issue that shouldn't even have been brought up.  Don, I half expected you to call me a "wussy."

[Eric Smith]

Here are but a few examples of notable modern designs with long(ish) treks from the 18th green to the 1st tee.

Approximate walking distances, via Google Earth:

Streamsong Red 400 yards

Boston Golf Club 480 yards

Harbour Town Golf Links 510 yards

Dismal River Red 710 yards

Kinloch Golf Club 830 yards

Kiawah Ocean Course 920 yards

[DMoriarty]

Eric,  

You say these are "but a few examples" which suggests there are many more such examples.  I'd like to see more.

And which of these courses also require a long cart ride to the first tee from the clubhouse?  

[Eric Smith]

David,

I don't know how many others there are with similar distances, maybe you could look them up. I've played all of the courses I listed and count them all among my favorites.

[John Kirk]

Yeah, but Eric, you gotta admit that the 830 yards between the 18th green and the 1st tee at Kinloch feels pretty short.  Huh?

Q: Stone Eagle is like Sand Hills in that?

A: The first tee is almost a mile away.  

Briefly, I don't think my friend Dave Moriarty would be interrogating the praise for Dismal River (Red) unless he cared.  The man picks his battles, and he is a devotee of the idea that frank commentary is essential.  It's a hot new golf course.  It should be walkable.  It's long, but the slopes are unusually gentle.  It's a real curiosity about the course.  You have holes that play two clubs up or down, and you're always walking up or down gentle grades.

Let's say you have a 1-10 walking scale.  1 is the easiest possible walk for a championship size course.  Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow is a 1.  Stone Eagle is a 10, only for the sturdy, with short green to tee walks, but a very steep environment.  I've done it several times, and for me walking that is the gold standard for difficulty.

Dismal River is about a 6.  An able bodied man in his fifties should be able to walk the course.  I did, and was not tired afterwards.  Green to tee walks are enjoyable, too.  I suppose you have to be in decent shape to do it, but isn't that the point?  If I were a member of the Dismal River Club, and I loved that place, I'd fight to walk that course.  Because walking a golf course is the gold standard of playing the game.  I guess that's where I fight the fight.

[DMoriarty]

Eric, Why would I look them up?  You are the one who wrote that your list represented "but a few examples."  Perhaps you should have written that you listed ever single example of which you are aware.  

Looks like the majority on your list are relatively new courses.  Perhaps we have the makings next trend in golf architecture.

[Eric Smith]

Eric, Why would I look them up?  You are the one who wrote that your list represented "but a few examples."  Perhaps you should have written that you listed ever single example of which you are aware.  

Looks like the majority on your list are relatively new courses.  Perhaps we have the makings next trend in golf architecture.

Professor,

Sorry for my "but a few" mistake earlier. Next time I address you I'll try to remember that it's always a fucking test with you. Look, that list took me 20-25 minutes to verify this afternoon, thinking through the courses I've played over the last 12 months, excepting BGC and TOC, which were a bit further back. It was an easy exercise.

I'll bet there are a lot more +400 yard examples among the top modern courses, but I don't care to look them up. I've cited a few examples to make a point that it is being done on other well received courses.

Honest question here, professor - if Dismal River Golf Club decides to build a tiki hut down left of the 9th fairway, with mouth watering sausages sizzling on the grill, equidistant to 18 green and 1 (and 9) tees, would you then give the routing an upgrade?

[Jason Thurman]

Let's think seriously about Dismal River for just a minute.

You fly to North Platte, Lincoln, Denver, or Omaha. Then you drive a few hours in a car to the club. What's the big damn deal with riding in a cart for a few hundred more yards to the first tee, and then riding one back to the clubhouse?

And if walking is such a big deal, why don't you just walk to the first tee? I've carried my bag from north of the White House to East Potomac golf course in DC. I've carried my bag 600 yards to my club's driving range and back before teeing off many times. If you REALLY are so into walking that you can't even bear being transported to and from the clubhouse, then walk. First walk to Mullen, then walk to Dismal, then walk to the first tee. Otherwise...



It's a private club geared toward national members. I'm sure the staff handles the cart logistics seamlessly. So really, why is it an issue at all? It sounds to me like this illusion of a life without wheels you're trying to maintain is completely arbitrary. Help me understand.

[DMoriarty]

\
Professor,

Sorry for my "but a few" mistake earlier. Next time I address you I'll try to remember that it's always a fucking test with you. Look, that list took me 20-25 minutes to verify this afternoon, thinking through the courses I've played over the last 12 months, excepting BGC and TOC, which were a bit further back. It was an easy exercise.

I'll bet there are a lot more +400 yard examples among the top modern courses, but I don't care to look them up. I've cited a few examples to make a point that it is being done on other well received courses.

Honest question here, professor - if Dismal River Golf Club decides to build a tiki hut down left of the 9th fairway, with mouth watering sausages sizzling on the grill, equidistant to 18 green and 1 (and 9) tees, would you then give the routing an upgrade?

I don't care where you Dismal guys stick your mouth-watering sausages.

[John Kirk]

...

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
All I'm saying is the course is very walkable.
I'd grade it easier then John K did. There are two up hill holes and one real climb.
#2 plays up hill, and #11 plays up hill, but from 2 green to 18 green is a 200 foot drop in elevation.
So, once you get to #2 green, you basically tack your way down except for the Par 3 11th and the climb up to 17 fwy. There may be a few other short walks up hill, but you basically get to the top of the course early and then work your way down.

I commend any course for trying to develop a walking culture, and you can certainly walk all you want at DR.  

[Eric Smith]

How about those sausages, though?

Bring it!

 

Tom Woodard style, baby!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvWzXFFZFGE

[RJ_Daley]

Dat's not a sahsaech, dat's a Tinissee brakefaest paaadie!  Dis aer sahsaeches.  You neet a upgrate ta grill claess.  Saef hunnerts a dollers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2G5DfGA5VY

BTW, interesting thread, but I like the previous suggestion of matching like holes to like holes, short par 3s to closest distance ones, short to long par 4s to closest distance ones, short to long par 5s, to like ones.  

Unfortunately, I was not qualified to participate with the match as I only played BN.  

But a lot of well stated passionate opinions and keen observations.  Well done.  

[DMoriarty]

Don,  I take your word for it about the course being walkable and I always have. I am sure I would love it.  The photos look terrific.
_______________________________________________

Jason,
I am not planning to visit Dismal.  Where I would walk has nothing to do with this.

I am interested in the evolution of golf course architecture.  Golf carts and how they are used obviously impact that evolution.  When perhaps the foremost active golf course architect (and one for whom I have tremendous respect) designs and builds a walkable golf course which will nonetheless require golfers to shuttle about in golf carts, I view that as a significant event worthy of discussion.

And when Eric throws together his list to try make the point that others are doing it so it must be okay, I look at that same list and see that the very foundation of what we think of as a golf course may be shifting before our eyes, and I wonder if maybe we should step back and consider whether such a shift will cause some unintended cracks.   Seemingly localized decisions here and there eventually alter the way we think about golf and golf courses, and over time such decisions can have an enormous impact.

And as I said above, I am not the only one who has thought about the consequences of such routing decisions:

The most difficult part of the routing was the part I solved first -- where to cross the creek at the top end, and how to get up to that point.  I had been considering a routing like we built at Dismal River, that started from a remote starting point and played back to the lodge, because I was concerned that the first few holes would be too steeply uphill to be walkable.  But I started trying to avoid that once I realized that everyone would get in a cart to get up to a remote starting point, and once I'd walked around the property for a few days, I thought that the climb might be manageable.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

Since you insist on using my quote above, maybe you'll listen to my point of view here.  Probably not, but I'll give it a shot.

It was impossible to have any course at Dismal start and finish near the clubhouse.  The founders had sold that land to some of the original investors, on the premise that they wanted their clubhouse in the most exciting place and their course in the best place for golf -- and also to be just like Sand Hills.  I don't remember you criticizing Sand Hills in the past for its failure to create a walking culture, but by my quote in blue, it certainly does.

Anyway, what I inherited at Dismal was different than Rock Creek.  At Rock Creek it was possible to start and end by the clubhouse.  At Dismal, neither was possible, so my decision was different ... I just went for the best golf course.  

The best golf course happened to include that 18th hole that most people really seem to like.  It wound up being the 18th because to continue up the river meant encountering wetlands, and to play back up to the road entailed a 300-yard par-4 with a 90-foot climb.  I considered building the latter as a 19th hole, but I thought I'd rather just stay down by the river after the 18th and have a beer and wait for someone to pick me up.

What I never did, was consider not building the 18th hole because some argumentative bore from L.A. who would never visit the place, thought it undermined the walking culture of the course.  Your concern is duly noted.