[Mac Plumart]

Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 5...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 6...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 7...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 8...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 9...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 12...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 13...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 14...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 15...Dismal Doak 10-8

As I mentioned previously, the 14th on the Red course at Dismal River is something extra special with almost limitless ways to play the hole.  And I mean limitless.  Ballyneal's 14th is another really good hole...but the "equifinality" aspect of the hole at Dismal Doak is off the charts.

Hole 15 at Ballyneal is a cool par 3.  Very fun.  But Dismal Red 15 is another mind-bottling golf hole.  You know, it is so incredible that it feels like it takes your mind and wraps it up inside a little bottle.  It is the "equifinality" aspects of this hole (and 14) that make them "ideal" golf holes.  You can drive the green at Dismal Red, if conditions are met.  You can play putter off the tee.  Here is a GREAT photo that Eric Smith took of me actually putting after laying up with an iron (I think it was a 5 iron).  The putt was 120 yards and I ran it up and down those swales and onto the green.  And this highlights the currently PERFECT maintenance meld of the course.  Really fast and firm fairways to compliment fast and firm greens.  Links golf in the amazing setting of the Sandhills of Nebraska.





**Side note...As was mentioned earlier in this thread, it doesn't matter who "wins" this boxing match.  This kind of comparison is fun to do, but can never be a de jure definition concerning which courses is "better."  It all comes down to one's individual tastes in golf.  Furthermore, both courses are REALLY good...and probably great.  And finally, to simply go hole by hole overlooks a lot of really important details behind understanding the overall quality of a golf course, maintenance meld, routing, walkability, winds impact, how do the challenge stack up and build on one another, etc, etc, etc...and perhaps most importantly, at least to me, what kind of feelings does it evoke in the golfer as he (or she) is playing it.

[John Kavanaugh]

When Red crossed the road he went up a weight class but Ballyneal has remained quick on her feet.  Spoiler alert.  The 17th is one Doak's favorite holes.  It ain't over yet.

[Michael George]

I think Ballyneal 15 is a "tell" hole.  It tells you the spirit of the golfer.  Does the golfer like fair or quirk.  Does the golfer like to see or does he like to be surprised.  Does he like template or does he like unique.  I love Ballyneal #15.  It is unique and certainly unlike any other hole in the sandhills of Nebraska or the chop hills of Colorado.  I love unique shots on a golf course and Ballyneal #15 provides one.  

Dismal River Red #15 is another great hole.  A truly different approach depending upon where and whether you hit your driver.

I usually give the advantage to the non-par 3 in rankings because par 4's and 5's provide the golfer more opportunities to hit enjoyable or varied shots, but I love Ballyneal #15.

Push 10-10.  Dismal Red still leads by 2 points with 3 holes to play.

[Stephen Davis]

Great stuff on two really great and fun holes! I am surprised to hear that #15 was voted as a least favorite hole, because I really love this hole. It is a ton of fun and it is a hard one to really figure out because the way to play it varies so much depending on pin placement.

15 at Dismal Red is one of those really great holes that stick in your mind, at least it stuck in my mind from the first time I saw it. Very cool hole and even more fun to play. It will be one of the most photographed holes on the property. Mac has it right that the different option it gives the golfer is what makes this a great hole. It is close, but I have to give this one to Dismal Red 10-9. My card has Ballyneal up by 1.

1: DR 10-9
2: Draw 10-10
3: BN 10-9
4: DR 10-9
5: BN 10-9
6: DR 10-8
7: BN 10-8
8: BN 10-9
9: DR 10-8
10: BN 10-9
11: Draw 10-10
12: BN 10-8
13: BN 10-9
14: DR 10-9
15: DR 10-9

[DMoriarty]

While I am really enjoying the commentary, hole descriptions, and photos in this thread, I remain baffled by some of the attempts at scoring this "fight."  In "ten point must" scoring, a "10-8" almost always means that one fighter got knocked on his ass. In rare instances it can mean that one fighter got beat up so badly that an additional point deduction is justified, but many judges will refrain ever awarding 10-8 round absent a knockdown, instead leaving it to the referee to stop the fight in such lopsided situations.  

How rare are "10-8" rounds when there are no knockdowns in rounds between evenly matched quality boxers, or even when they are not so evenly matched?  Consider the recent match between Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Canelo Alvarez.  While Alvarez is a top quality boxer and did his best thoughout the fight, he didn't stand a chance. Mayweather picked him apart, thoroughly dominating the fight from opening to losing bell. Yet there was not a not a single "10-8" on any scorecard.  There were no knockdowns, and despite Mayweather's dominating performance, there was nothing close to justifying a 10-8 round without a knockdown.  

One reason why 10-8 rounds are so rare in evenly matched fights is that they are just too subjective.  It is hard enough to pick a winner of a round between two evenly matched opponents (just ask the judge who awarded Alverez a draw) without trying to distinguish between a winning  round and a thoroughly dominating round.  Perhaps more significantly, such scores are unusual because awarding a 10-8 round essentially doubles the value of that round relative to the others.  Between the subjectivity and the overweighting, non-knockdown 10-8's rounds lead to very questionable scorecards and very questionable results.

So how does this relate to our "fight" here between Ballyneal and Dismal River? Well, given the quality of the architect and the sites on which these courses were built, I have trouble believing that so many of these rounds could be so mismatched so as to justify so much lopsided scoring.  

For example, through 15 holes one scorecard has two rounds at 10-10, six rounds at 10-9, and a whopping seven rounds at the double value of 10-8.  So while the match is very close by holes (Red +1) the fight is all but over by score (Red +4) even though there are three holes to play.  It is like matchplay where some holes inexplicably count double because of ill-defined and "mind-bottling" style points.

(Another scorecard has 6 double value rounds, and while this scorer is being careful to split the double values between the courses, such lopsided scoring between two equally matched opponents is no more believable .  No way this many holes are this bad on either course.)

In short, scorecards like these make the Rocky fights seem believable in comparison.

Or maybe I am missing something . . . Are there really so many bad holes at these courses that one side or the other can so thoroughly dominate one round or another?  Because that is what some of these scorecards indicate.   These are both supposed to be great courses.  I have trouble believing they could be so mismatched even on a hole by hole basis.

[DMoriarty]

Perhaps it would help my understanding and the understanding of others if perhaps some of you who are giving these 10-8 scores could explain the justification a bit more?  Were these really knockdowns?  Did the winning holes really so thoroughly dominate?  How close was the fight to being over by KO or TKO?   If so, it'd be great to hear the details.

What are the shortcomings of the losing hole that justified doubling the value of the round?  To say you liked it better is one thing, but to say it thoroughly dominated the loser to the point of doubling the value of the round seems to cry out for a more thorough justification (and criticism) than just a matter of differences subjective taste.

And to give an idea of what thorough domination looks like, here is a link to highlights from the first Foreman Frazier fight.  Of course that fight only had six knockdowns.  Some of these cards have seven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9q7mvc6bsY

Of course Foreman Frazier I didn't make it two rounds, but with some of these scorecards this fight wouldn't have made it much longer.  

[Jason Thurman]

Please tell me we're not going to start arguing about how you judge whether or not an inanimate piece of land was "knocked down."

The amazing thing is that real boxing corruption that affects the flow of hundreds of millions of dollars in prize money and gambling winnings rarely generates nearly such reactions.

[DMoriarty]

Please tell me we're not going to start arguing about how you judge whether or not an inanimate piece of land was "knocked down."

Read Barney's intro.  It's boxing.  With blood.  Scorecards indicate seven or more knockdowns and I'd like to hear more about them.

The amazing thing is that real boxing corruption that affects the flow of hundreds of millions of dollars in prize money and gambling winnings rarely generates nearly such reactions.

What?  You obviously don't follow boxing.

[Jason Thurman]

You obviously don't follow exaggeration.

But seriously, nobody cares about CJ Ross in the grand scheme of things, and the people that do basically expect her to show up in every big fight anymore. Would you have wagered the buy-in of your weekly golf game that Floyd was getting a unanimous decision after the 12th round against Alvarez before the scores were announced? I wouldn't have. It didn't take Miss Cleo to see where that one was going. There's a downtrodden resignation that comes with complaining about real boxing corruption. No such thing in the Dismal vs Ballyneal match.

The genius of this thread is that it pits Doak vs. Doak. Trying to decide whether a Doak hole can be two points better than another Doak hole is the closest we've ever gotten to answering the "Can God throw a punch so hard that he knocks himself out?" question. I love the idea that Doak couldn't possibly design a hole that could be knocked down by another, as though all his holes are masters of the Philly shell. Hell, even Ali got knocked down a few times.

[Stephen Davis]

Perhaps it would help my understanding and the understanding of others if perhaps some of you who are giving these 10-8 scores could explain the justification a bit more?  Were these really knockdowns?  Did the winning holes really so thoroughly dominate?  How close was the fight to being over by KO or TKO?   If so, it'd be great to hear the details.

What are the shortcomings of the losing hole that justified doubling the value of the round?  To say you liked it better is one thing, but to say it thoroughly dominated the loser to the point of doubling the value of the round seems to cry out for a more thorough justification (and criticism) than just a matter of differences subjective taste.

And to give an idea of what thorough domination looks like, here is a link to highlights from the first Foreman Frazier fight.  Of course that fight only had six knockdowns.  Some of these cards have seven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9q7mvc6bsY

Of course Foreman Frazier I didn't make it two rounds, but with some of these scorecards this fight wouldn't have made it much longer.  

First off this is a fun exercise that gets us talking about two courses that we love and that I think are truly fantastic courses. There is not a bad hole among the two of the, which I can see is what is causing the confusion. I don't think that any of us are saying that a hole is so BAD that it got knocked out, rather that a hole is SO GREAT that it deserves extra.

Case in point are the 7th holes. I think that #7 at Dismal Red is a very good hole. I had a blast playing it and it is designed extremely well. That being said, #7 at Ballyneal is one if my favorite holes in the world and is something extraordinary. Thus, I scored it 10-8. Hope that helps, but in the end it is all for fun.

[John Kirk]

If a critic were to evaluate the two holes in terms of how unique the golf hole is, Ballyneal's 15th hole is probably more unusual and unique.  If the critic were to evaluate based on options and variety, it seems clear that Dismal River's 15th is the choice.  However, Ballyneal's 15th hole does make me want to try different shots based on different pin positions, wind conditions, and length.  In terms of beauty, I think Dismal River beats Ballyneal by a nose, though Ballyneal's is more visually dramatic.  A close call all around.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I view this thread as merely a way to compare and contrast two excellent golf courses.  Those that have played both will have their own personal preferences, and that is fine.  Discussing the holes and learning more about subtle features and strategies that may have been missed is the fun part for me.  I've enjoyed participating in it and hopefully a few others have enjoyed learning more about the golf holes and will be encouraged to visit both of these great courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

Both fighters know that they can't be knocked out so they tend to lead with their chin in a more reckless style. This has lead to an inordinate number of knockdowns for either side. I currently sit at three each. Thus far my total score has not been affected either way.

I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to either follow or contribute over these three long weeks. I can't wait till Friday to see who wins.

[Peter Pallotta]

Both fighters know that they can't be knocked out so they tend to lead with their chin in a more reckless style. This has lead to an inordinate number of knockdowns for either side. I currently sit at three each. Thus far my total score has not been affected either way.

Gotta say - you're very quick on your feet for a big man...

[DMoriarty]

Barney, care to elaborate on how the golf holes in question recklessly lead with their chins, architecturally?  That'd be an interesting discussion.

As for your knockdown rounds canceling each other out, that is convenient but seems rather beside the point.  Or is this like a political talk show where pitting absurdly partisan opposing positions against each other passes for objectivity?

[John Kavanaugh]

Round 16. Dingleberries and Doppelgängers

These are both important holes if for not their relationship with what follows. Red is set against the backdrop of the horseshoe land formations as the 16th at Ballyneal is followed by the great 17th.  The 16th and 17th at BN form one of the great templates in golf, the short par 5, long par 4 where the fluidity of par becomes a viscous pool of hope and doubt.  A founding member has been quoted to say that he has only seen a pair of 4's scored once in his presence.  At times the 5 is easier than the 4 as the opposite also becomes true.  Holes of a mirror image with a touch of evil in the mix.  A great treat towards the finish of a great course.

The Red 16th is a medium length par 3 set hard against the both the river and ancient hills that greet you in the distance as you first encounter the region.  No shot can be hit so high that it will break over the horizon as we are treated with the image of our ball tumbling down against the hill like a frost encrusted dingleberriy shaken loose from a lone buffalo.  This will most likely be the last peaceful image you experience on this hole.  If the greensite was any less bizarre it could be seen as an attempt to one up what the land has so generously already provided.  As it sits it is a perfect mix of torture and exhilaration.  At approximately 10 o'clock some distance removed from the green a hazard sits as if it predated the course.  I have no idea how it got there or why it remains.  It will probably see the remains of drunken cart riders as likely as shots from golfers.  A double D Dungeon so to speak that will lead to stories of legend and bravado.  I look forward to finding it some day.

Verdict. Red 10 - 9

Running card:

1.  Red 10 - 8
2.  BN  10 - 9
3.  BN  10 - 8
4.  Red 10 - 9
5.  Red 10 - 8
6   Red 10 - 9
7.  BN   10 - 9
8.  BN   10 - 8
9.  Red  10 - 9
10. BN  10 - 9
11. Red 10 - 9
12. BN  10 - 8
13. Red 10 - 9
14. Red 10 - 8
15. BN  10 - 9
16. Red 10 - 9

Red is up 2 points with two rounds to follow. There is no dormie in boxing.

[John Kirk]

Ballyneal's 16th hole is an uphill par 5, 546 yards from the back tee, and about 480 yards from a series of middle tees.  The tee shot is uphill to a wide fairway that tends to fall away for shots on the edges.  Left center is best, and the truly magnificent drive will climb the hill and roll into the Bowl of Achievement, the little valley short of the big waste area shown in this photograph:



From the 480 yard tees, and sometimes downwind from the 546 yard tee box, the player can drive it far enough up the hill to have a decision whether to go for the green in two shots.  The hole turns sharply left for the last 175 or so yards, and a second shot at the green often requires the player to play over the dune on the left.  It is an exhilarating shot, especially when one is playing a match or going for a good score.

This is another "Gate" or "Gap" hole, where the fairway narrows to a few yards through the gap.  The gap requires some forethought when to play across it.  A poor or weak drive may require a layup into the Bowl of Achievement, followed by an uphill iron shot to the green.  The gap is wide, and the choice is whether to play for a 160 yard approach, or shoot the gap and play for 80 or less yards left.

The green is the smallest on the course, and not terribly sloped by Ballyneal standards.  The pot bunker short of the green is merely tough; going for the green and rolling down a couple yards short of the pot bunker is death, perhaps the most difficult short game play on the golf course.

Back to anecdotal golf analysis.  The day I played Dismal River...

The day I played Dismal River, I played the hole at 166 yards and the hole was cut in the front left position, as it is shown in Mr. Lambrecht's photo.  It's a very deep green, so I guessed it must be 12-15 yards short of center, and with the gentle down breeze, everything conspired to try a big 9-iron right at the flag, which I executed properly.  It carried the front bunker and stayed just short of the back bunker.  That front left portion of the green is very shallow.  Made a par.



That bunker in the wetlands on the right is interesting.  Is that for looks, or does that have a function on the 15th hole?

Big, wild green, with lots of hole locations to choose from.

Well, the 16th hole at Dismal River is very nice, but I view the 16th at Ballyneal as being more dramatic and more interesting.  Sorry, no dingleberry descriptions here.  I'm not to be trusted with anything that could be remotely considered artistic expression.  Just the facts, ma'am.



Ballyneal wins (10-9).

[Michael George]

I am going with John Kirk on this one.  Nothing against 16 at Dismal Red, which is a great par 3.  However, 16 at Ballyneal is one of my personal favorites.  The 2nd shot at 16 through that "gap" is a most thrilling shot.  It is quite the experience to hit that shot and then walk through that "pass" up toward your ball and the green.  The green is not as dramatic as others, but the false front certainly is.  Just a wonderful golf hole.  

Ballyneal 10-9.  
Dismal Red has a 1 up lead on my card going into the last 2 holes.

[Eric Smith]

After visiting Ballyneal again this summer, the 16th jumped to the head of the class for me. The hole has so much to like about it. It starts with the bench. Never has a bench on a tee been better placed. It provides a much appreciated respite after 3 hours in the sun. Better hurry up and catch your breath though because the view of this angry sea of fairway before you is nothing short of breathtaking. A real 'wow' spot on a course full of them.

On my previous visits I'd hit decent drives here but neither had turned over enough to catch the slope and bound toward this bowl ("of achievement" - I like that).  Those shots left me playing sort of 'hit and hope' blind to partially blind second shots where I hadn't had much confidence in the outcome. This last time would be different. I smoked a 2 wood that hit the ground running with a perfect, low, right to left trajectory. When I arrived at my ball I couldn't help but smile when turning to view the green. I was in the midst of a heated battle with David Davis, who'd already closed me out in our 18 hole match (I think he was hovering around par for the day), and this would be the beginning of my little run with the pressed bet. Suddenly I had delusions of grandeur, standing there in the bowl of achievement, holding a 4 iron in my hand, with David drowning somewhere back in the waves.

It's holes like the 16th, where a hole's strategy is revealed over multiple plays, that takes the game of golf to a whole 'nother level. That a match can swing dramatically, where two opponents both hit good drives in the fairway, yet be a half to whole shot apart before they take their next swing, just blows my mind. I love that.

[John Kirk]

It's holes like the 16th, where a hole's strategy is revealed over multiple plays, that takes the game of golf to a whole 'nother level. That a match can swing dramatically, where two opponents both hit good drives in the fairway, yet be a half to whole shot apart before they take their next swing, just blows my mind. I love that.

I think I've proven, with this exercise, that one round is all I need to completely assess a golf course.  Cue Jack Webb!

[Jim Colton]

The 16th green at Ballyneal can be terrorizing if you end up over the green (a common occurrence for those going for the green in two) and have to chip to a front right pin location. Even putting from the back of the green to that pin takes very careful consideration.

Anecdotally, I've probably had 10 Hal Sutton-inspired 'Be the right club, Tuu-DAY' moments in my golfing life, and four of them have been on this hole. The second shot often requires a leap of faith, and it's a rare thrill when you think you might've actually pulled it off.

[Carl Nichols]

Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 5...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 6...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 7...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 8...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 9...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 12...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 13...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 14...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 15...Dismal Doak 10-8

As I mentioned previously, the 14th on the Red course at Dismal River is something extra special with almost limitless ways to play the hole.  And I mean limitless.  Ballyneal's 14th is another really good hole...but the "equifinality" aspect of the hole at Dismal Doak is off the charts.

Hole 15 at Ballyneal is a cool par 3.  Very fun.  But Dismal Red 15 is another mind-bottling golf hole.  You know, it is so incredible that it feels like it takes your mind and wraps it up inside a little bottle.  It is the "equifinality" aspects of this hole (and 14) that make them "ideal" golf holes.  You can drive the green at Dismal Red, if conditions are met.  You can play putter off the tee.  Here is a GREAT photo that Eric Smith took of me actually putting after laying up with an iron (I think it was a 5 iron).  The putt was 120 yards and I ran it up and down those swales and onto the green.  And this highlights the currently PERFECT maintenance meld of the course.  Really fast and firm fairways to compliment fast and firm greens.  Links golf in the amazing setting of the Sandhills of Nebraska.





**Side note...As was mentioned earlier in this thread, it doesn't matter who "wins" this boxing match.  This kind of comparison is fun to do, but can never be a de jure definition concerning which courses is "better."  It all comes down to one's individual tastes in golf.  Furthermore, both courses are REALLY good...and probably great.  And finally, to simply go hole by hole overlooks a lot of really important details behind understanding the overall quality of a golf course, maintenance meld, routing, walkability, winds impact, how do the challenge stack up and build on one another, etc, etc, etc...and perhaps most importantly, at least to me, what kind of feelings does it evoke in the golfer as he (or she) is playing it.

Did you photoshop either the course or you in this pic?

[DMoriarty]

Did you photoshop either the course or you in this pic?

Maybe he just has a natural glow about him.

[Eric Smith]

Cpt. Kirk,

After all these years, "It's not how you drive, it's how you arrive" still hasn't sunk in.


Carl,

No. I just colored the pic.

Here's the original:

[Scott Szabo]

The 16th green at Ballyneal can be terrorizing if you end up over the green (a common occurrence for those going for the green in two) and have to chip to a front right pin location. Even putting from the back of the green to that pin takes very careful consideration.

Anecdotally, I've probably had 10 Hal Sutton-inspired 'Be the right club, Tuu-DAY' moments in my golfing life, and four of them have been on this hole. The second shot often requires a leap of faith, and it's a rare thrill when you think you might've actually pulled it off.

You beat me to it.  I've been over that green a number of times with a front pin and have always been concerned about sending it off the front of the green or into the bunker on my third shot, almost always leaving it 20-30 feet short.  Over the green is nasty.

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