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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #150 on: October 02, 2013, 12:33:33 PM »
The photos of Dismal River's 6th hole already posted seem sufficient for now.  It is much more photogenic than the 6th hole at Ballyneal.  Here is a picture from the back of Ballyneal's 6th green:



Ballyneal's 6th hole plays anywhere from 420-490 yards, par 4.  More often than not, it plays into the wind, and for me, has been the hardest hole on the course versus par (average of 4.84, scores compiled between 2006-2009).  Almost everything about it is difficult.

Played from tees immediately off the 5th green, the tee shot is blind, over a sand ridge.  It is the only blind tee shot (the other one is #2, sometimes) that is discomforting.  Here you know trouble is looming; missing left off the tee is very bad here, an almost certain bogey or worse.  But approaching the green from the left half of the fairway gives a better angle.

Missing the approach shot left of the target is almost always best.  There's a deep bunker 10-50 yards short of the green to guard shots headed at the left edge of the green.  Missing right creates the dreaded short game pitch off tight turf up a steep slope and downhill to the cup.  Almost every pin location is tough, and the convex green sheds balls off to the sides.

Golf courses have to be tough somewhere.  It may be the least charming hole on the course.  Perhaps its greatest charm is watching long approach shots bound in downwind.


How can I possibly compare it with this elegant little 6th hole at Dismal River?  They are so different.  The day I played, I started on #9.  #15 was into the wind, so I tried to drive the green here to see what happens.  I struck it well, but pushed it a bit, maybe 20 yards right of the green.  The pin was tucked right behind the bunker, as shown in Cliff Walston's photo.  The shot looked so difficult I decided to punt, nervously bumping the ball around the high side of the bunker and making a tap-in two putt par.

My memory says the green here is actually pretty benign for a short par 4, not wickedly contoured.  The short 4s it reminded me of were Sand Hills 7th hole, and Merion's 10th hole, though neither of those holes have a bunker fronting the green for second shots.

I haven't decided how to rate them yet.  I'm leaning towards a Dismal River win, but I'm not enamored with either one.  What do you guys think?

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #151 on: October 02, 2013, 01:50:35 PM »
While driveable under the right conditions, the 6th at Dismal is a very dangerous hole to attack from the tee.  As John Kirk mentioned, a shot flared to the right leaves a very awkward pitch and pulling a tee shot left can yield a big number.  I've played the hole well thus far by hitting a 210 yard shot out to the right and leaving myself with a full wedge in.  One thing I did learn on my first round was that if laying up, you must be careful with the right to left slope of the fairway.  Tee shots that land left of center can easily tumble into trouble left.  It can yield a good angle if you manage to keep it in the fairway, but it's risky.  

The 6th at Ballyneal is a brute.  This type of long, challenging par 4 is something I enjoy.  Walking off the green with a four feels awfully good.  I particularly like the blind tee shot here, you must trust your line which can be difficult to do when playing in wind.

Again, very different holes, Dismal Red gets the nod from me.... 10-9

Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #152 on: October 02, 2013, 04:18:48 PM »
I don't have much to add from what Jimmy or John had to say about either hole.  I do think the 6th at Ballyneal is a perfect set up for the 7th.  A brute before a treat is always nice.

The Red 6th is also a perfect compliment to the 4th and 5th which are finesse driver holes.  This hole only appears to be a driver when it is simply a feathered four wood staying on top of the slope out right.  I love the hole because it is one that I will never lose.  My guests will all go for the green and fail every time.  One small data point is in the shoot out to win the 5th Major.  My partner and I, despite being the two lowest handicaps in the field, were the only team where we both layed up.  With great respect to the 6th at Ballyneal I have Red winning 10 - 9.

Running card:

1.  Red 10 - 8
2.  BN  10 - 9
3.  BN  10 - 8
4.  Red 10 - 9
5.  Red 10 - 8
6   Red 10 - 9

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #153 on: October 02, 2013, 04:29:15 PM »
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 04:45:48 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #154 on: October 02, 2013, 08:34:44 PM »
The beautiful 6th hole on the Red course at Dismal River Club.  Photo courtesy of L.C. Lambrecht.



Hole 1:  Ballyneal
Hole 2:  ---
Hole 3:  Dismal River
Hole 4:  Ballyneal
Hole 5:  Dismal River
Hole 6:  Dismal River

What I like most is that it is a little different than the Doak short 4s I've played.

I have a growing, begrudging respect for the newcomer.  C'mon Ballyneal, step up your game!

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #155 on: October 02, 2013, 08:42:39 PM »
Wow, that's a stunning picture of the 6th, John.  Thanks for posting and to Larry Lambrecht for sharing his great pictures.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #156 on: October 02, 2013, 09:54:43 PM »


Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 5...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 6...Dismal Doak 10-8
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Brandon Urban

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #157 on: October 02, 2013, 10:49:16 PM »
This hole only appears to be a driver when it is simply a feathered four wood staying on top of the slope out right.  I love the hole because it is one that I will never lose.  My guests will all go for the green and fail every time.  One small data point is in the shoot out to win the 5th Major.  My partner and I, despite being the two lowest handicaps in the field, were the only team where we both layed up.  

The funny thing is in the 5th Major shootout, my partner layed up and made 6. I was over the green with my tee ball and made 4. Good luck trying to get anything close to a front pin tucked right behind that bunker.

Over the course of the weekend (8 or so rounds), I hit four different clubs off of the tee. I made everything from a 3 to a 7 and that didn't necessarily correspond with laying up or not. It is my favorite hole on the front 8.

#6 at Ballyneal is a damn good hole, as well. I absolutely love the putting surface and surrounds.
181 holes at Ballyneal on June, 19th, 2017. What a day and why I love golf - http://www.hundredholehike.com/blogs/181-little-help-my-friends

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #158 on: October 03, 2013, 07:39:42 AM »
7th round. Choices. I'm sitting on a plane waiting to fly out to the worst weather I have ever golfed.  Great day so far, funeral, craps, lose, lose, win, win, win....no sleep, exit row, fat chick, smells fine, good day.  Phone off later.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #159 on: October 03, 2013, 07:42:03 AM »
This is the first no-brainer decision of the bout.  Dismal Red 6 is a beautiful, fun and strategic hole that is again one of my favorites on the front side.  Ballyneal 6 is a nice hole with a great green, but from tee to green is long and straight.  Dismal River Red 10-8.  

1 Ballyneal 10-9
2 Ballyneal 10-9
3 Dismal River Red 10-9
4 Dismal River Red 10-9
5 Dismal River Red 10-9
6 Dismal River Red 10-8

Dismal up 3 points on the card.  However, Ballyneal fans don't fret with the next 2 holes coming up!
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #160 on: October 03, 2013, 08:06:31 AM »
Watching the comments on round 6, it's interesting how little design cred people give long par 4's.  I'm generalizing, but for some reason, short 4's are genius, but long 4's are slogs.  Oh well.  On my own card, I think by the time that this thing finishes, it'll be very even.  But Ballyneal is about to go on a huge run between 6 and 12.  

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #161 on: October 03, 2013, 09:18:22 AM »
I haven't been to either place, but this thread is making me want to go even more so.  Just wanted to chime in and say this has been a fantastically entertaining exercise.  Thanks for putting the time and effort into this one. Look forward to the rest.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #162 on: October 03, 2013, 09:30:05 AM »
I haven't been to either place, but this thread is making me want to go even more so.  Just wanted to chime in and say this has been a fantastically entertaining exercise.  Thanks for putting the time and effort into this one. Look forward to the rest.

I agree.  The pictures are incredible.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #163 on: October 03, 2013, 10:11:13 AM »
Can you win a round 10-7? I have not been to Dismal Red yet, but Ballyneal #7 is awesome.
Mr Hurricane

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #164 on: October 03, 2013, 10:24:05 AM »


The Red 6th is also a perfect compliment to the 4th and 5th which are finesse driver holes.  This hole only appears to be a driver when it is simply a feathered four wood staying on top of the slope out right.  I love the hole because it is one that I will never lose.  My guests will all go for the green and fail every time.  One small data point is in the shoot out to win the 5th Major.  My partner and I, despite being the two lowest handicaps in the field, were the only team where we both layed up.  With great respect to the 6th at Ballyneal I have Red winning 10 - 9.



From the picture below, I can certainly see why that is the case, it's very inviting to attempt to drive, especially for a newcomer.  

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #165 on: October 03, 2013, 10:29:17 AM »
Can you win a round 10-7? I have not been to Dismal Red yet, but Ballyneal #7 is awesome.

Red 7 is a better hole but a champ always gets a break. You would love it.

As so often happens in boxing past performance scores points. History dictates a win for Ballyneal. Ballyneal wins round 7: 10  -  9.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #166 on: October 03, 2013, 10:46:52 AM »
Can you win a round 10-7? I have not been to Dismal Red yet, but Ballyneal #7 is awesome.

Red 7 is a better hole but a champ always gets a break. You would love it.

As so often happens in boxing past performance scores points. History dictates a win for Ballyneal. Ballyneal wins round 7: 10  -  9.

I can't wait to see it and am sure I would love it.
Mr Hurricane

Cliff Walston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #167 on: October 03, 2013, 10:49:57 AM »
A few pictures of Red 7:  The hole plays 442/388 respectively.  Staring you in the face is an intimidating bunker right, which can be carried with a good tee shot.  Only a sliver of fairway is visible left of the bunker, but there are acres and acres of short grass over the bunker.  The back side of that mound (shown in the second pic) is turfed and provides a speed slot with a kick left back into the center of the fairway.  The green is perched up on a knob and is full of humps and bumps.  A challenging hole, as it played back into the wind the last several times I teed it up.  





« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 10:55:32 AM by Cliff Walston »

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #168 on: October 03, 2013, 10:59:55 AM »
Round 7 - both are good holes, but 7 at Ballyneal is one of my favorite holes in the world.  I am not sure that I have played a hole that is as fun as the 7th at Ballyneal anywhere.

7 - Ballyneal 10-8.  Like the 6th in favor of Dismal River Red, the disparity is due to one hole being absolutely world class, not weakness of the other course.  But, ask anyone that has played Ballyneal, what they thought and it invariably starts with the 7th hole.  I think even "that guy" that never remembers any holes, remembers 7 at Ballyneal.  
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #169 on: October 03, 2013, 11:34:55 AM »
Maybe BN's 6th and Red's 7th should square off?

And likewise BN's 7th vs Red's 6th?

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #170 on: October 03, 2013, 11:52:08 AM »
Clearly, the 6-7 and 7-6 comparison would be more relevant, but that would change the rules.

Dismal River's 7th hole in the morning fog:



Another early morning photo of the "E" Green on Ballyneal's 7th hole.  Photos courtesy of L.C. Lambrecht.  His website is www.golfstock.net.






Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #171 on: October 03, 2013, 11:54:59 AM »
Both 7's are terrific.

I would put Ballyneal's 7th up against all 7's anywhere that I've played. Such a fun, memorable hole. If you're a bomber with a slingshot draw, or a lefty with a power fade, then this hole is one you'll take delight in when standing at the tee. I think of this tee shot the most when I think of Ballyneal.

The green is wild and will remain etched in my mind forever. I saw a green in England last summer (Goswick #14) that had a big slope playing off an adjacent dune that reminded me of this one, but it didn't have the bunkers cutting into the other side of the green, forming the 'E', like at Ballyneal. I think that feature is really what makes Ballyneal's 7th green unique. 4 times I've played this hole. Once I drove it into the carry bunker in the dune left, the other 3 were near perfect drives to the right edge of the green. Walked away with par every time. I should start thinking more about the second shot when I think of Ballyneal's 7th.

7 at Dismal River is my second favorite on the upper 8. It is an amazing golf hole with so many different ways to attack it. I've played it 5 times now and have never been in the fairway proper down left of the big bunker. I got it in my head early on, looking at the hole backwards when playing the 6th, that I rather liked the idea of playing over and right of the big bunker, down the hill, still in the fairway shared with the 6th hole. It is not the best angle to come at the green however and brings the big slope left into play if you hook it. Get one going down there and you will finally have the chance to use your 60 degree wedge!



I love this hole. It is extremely wide, beautiful to behold, routed over some terrific ground with another gem of a greensite. I can remember standing on it when it was just a field thinking it was a special spot.

Still, BN's 7 wins the round 10-9.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:01:22 PM by Eric Smith »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #172 on: October 03, 2013, 12:45:35 PM »
As I said before, I played Dismal River all the way back, on a very pleasant morning with a gentle 5-10 mph S-SE wind.  I wanted to be able to see what I could and could not do.  The 7th hole plays well uphill, and 442 yards, and when I saw the giant right fairway bunker complex pinching the fairway down to 20 or so yards, I assume I must be able to carry it with a good drive.  My good high tee shots still carry about 235-240 yards.  I hit my best drive of the day, just what I wanted, and ended up in the middle of that big bunker, with about 210 yards left from an uphill lie.  From there I hit a few more shots of various types before moving to the next hole.  Another green with wide expanses of short grass around it.

Beautiful golf hole, similar to #6 at Ballyneal - very difficult, uphill, with a big undulating green.  Is this the largest green on the course?  What is the average size of the greens?

I only remember one other Doak hole where I wasn't strong enough to carry the fairway bunker, the 9th hole at Sebonack.  At Sebonack, the fairway bunkers are in generally more diabolical positions (from the second set of tees).  Long hitters can handle this hole, guys who carry it 260 yards or more.  I should play this hole at about 390-420 yards in the future, unless it is playing downwind, then I'd be tempted to try again.

The two 7th holes are similar in that they both have a large fairway bunker etched into a dune.  The fairway bunker at Ballyneal's 7th hole is extremely penal.  It must be a 1.25 stroke penalty on average, or something like that.  From the back tee, 352 yards, the carry over this bunker is about 240 yards, and not worth it for me.  The last thing I want is a 40-70 yard shot off tight turf and an uneven lie.  Generally the hole is played around 320-335 yards, so players have a legitimate shot at getting close or reaching the green with a long straight shot.

If the pin is in the back bowl, I usually try to leave a full wedge distance in.  About 85-100 yards is ideal.  But that's not easy to do; the big bunker and rolling fairway ground make the layup tee shot quite difficult for me.  My average score here is higher than the 9th and 14th holes.  That reflects on my driving ability; great drivers of the ball should tear this hole up.

The unique "E" green has a huge shoulder left of the green.  It makes a great backstop to hit parabolic putts from one portion of the green to the next, but play it too high and you can overcook it into a bunker.  I remember when Tom found the greensite in late 2004, which helped complete the routing puzzle for the front nine.  Those were heady days, man.

I have never played another hole where players make more positive noise as when they approach Ballyneal's 7th green.  Ooohs and ahhhhs and wows and laughter and joy.  It's simple, great fun.

Ballyneal battles back, 10-9.

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #173 on: October 03, 2013, 01:10:21 PM »
Now that we're 7 holes in, I'm opening up the window for side bets. Closest person to correctly guess each judges score gets a day on me at Ballyneal (and hopefully someone will throw in a day at DR) in 2014.

Send me a PM with predicted final results for:

Kavanaugh
Kirk
Doak
Murratt
Plumart
George

« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 01:35:38 PM by Jim Colton »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #174 on: October 03, 2013, 01:25:08 PM »
Good luck counting my card. I've scored two holes.