Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match

[John Kavanaugh]

Round 3.  This is a punch fest.  The second hole was a bit of a rest but in round 3 we begin a battle of the par 3's which will continue throughout the bout.  Standing on the 3rd tee at Ballyneal I feel like I am at home.  It is the one hole that Doak designed that would be at home on the White.  My favorite length, backstops and sideboards galore, a cornucopia of conspicuous consumption.  I love the hole, it makes me want to return.

The third at Red plays like a death scene from Kurosawa. Pain, blood and guts.  I have yet to have a shot on that hole that I either looked forward to or reflected happily back upon.  Harakiri golf, a slow death no matter where you hit it.  The hole deflates my ego and makes me run to the next tee.

Ballyneal 10 - 8.

Running card:

1. Red 10 - 8
2. BN  10 - 9
3. BN  10 - 8

[John Kavanaugh]

I've never seen a good photo of the 3rd at the Red. The following video Clarissa's it better than most:

http://tinyurl.com/mtuzfgm

[Jimmy Muratt]

I enjoy the 3rd hole at both courses.  My favorite feature of the hole at Ballyneal is the semi blind aspect from the back right tee location.  Despite only having a 9 iron (depending on wind) in hand, you must trust your line.  The green is very sloped so can make for some interesting putts or recovery options.  Many short 3's rely on a very small target for their defense, this hole has an ample sized green and still provides a good challenge.

The 3rd at Dismal is much more demanding, especially from the back tee where the cavernous front right bunker feels like it's much more in play.  It's much more visually intimidating from that tee.  It's easy to bail out left but that's not an easy spot to be.  It's a very rewarding hole when you hit a good shot.  

Very different holes and both excellent.  It's a push for me....10-10.

[John Kirk]

Link to monthly "windrose" data for North Platte, Nebraska.

http://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/sites/windrose.phtml?network=NE_ASOS&station=LBF

[John Kirk]

Wow.  We are not in sync on the ratings.  Very interesting.

The 3rd hole at Ballyneal is perhaps the most photogenic hole on the course.  Very beautiful, fits into the terrain perfectly, and yet, it's my least favorite hole on the course.  Am I biased against short-iron golf holes?  Short iron play is a strength; I'm good at distance control.  But I don't think that's it.

I think the 3rd hole is too easy, but also relatively difficult to make a birdie, unless the pin is in the front left bowl.  I make par here maybe 70-75% of the time.  Everybody makes par, and if you don't, it's demoralizing.  There is little sense of accomplishment for making par, and the chances of making a mistake off the tee, making bogey and feeling like an asshole, are greater than sticking it close and making a birdie.  You also have to be disciplined, and know the idiosyncrasies of the green, to "take dead aim" and hit the birdie shot.  A hole which might lull a player into complacency.

I didn't even notice the big right bunker on Dismal River's 3rd hole.  I saw a rather wide opening to a wide green, perched on a high spot, with a big slope (would we even call this a false front?) short of the green.  Playing at 195 yards with a light wind, it was a tweener shot for me, either a medium 4- or a solid 5-iron.  I felt a well struck 4-iron would be too much, with too low a trajectory, and would go long.  I tried to hit the big 5-iron, mishit it and stayed 3-4 yards short of the green.  Uphill chip off tight turf is a hard shot for me, so I putted it up the steep slope and made an easy bogey.  A difficult hole.

Questions for this golf hole:

1.  Could somebody who knows please describe the green for me?  I think it's a bit shallow, but strongly tilted back down to front.  I have a feeling downhill putts there are treacherous.

2.  Does anybody know the square footage of the Dismal River greens?  My sense is they are smaller than some of Tom's recent work, and smaller on average than Ballyneal's.

3.  I think the "ground game" is almost useless here, that a ball must fly nearly all the way to the green.  You might be able to one-hop a shot off the front slope and bounce it up there.  Are there anecdotes where a weaker player has bounced one up?  

Dismal River - Red has what I call a California style opening stretch — short 5, long 4, medium 3.  Pasatiempo, Stanford and Olympic start similarly, especially Stanford.  Many great courses in California open short 5, long 4.

Dismal River's third hole is brutal from the back tee, but from the 165 post, it would be a nice high 7-iron to the center of the green, take your two putts for par, and walk away with a sense of accomplishment.  I like how the hole is out in the open, with the possibility of watching fellow players on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th holes.  I do think the green to tee walk, and tee position on #3 is awkward, as a sliced second shot attempting to reach the 2nd green will result in the occasional "Fore!" declaration.

I liked it.

DR 10-9.  

[Brandon Urban]

John Kirk- I will say this about #3 on the Red course. After about the 4th time around during my Hundred Hole Hike I learned that if I flew the ball all the way to the center of the green it was never going to stop. If I remember correctly, the back third of that green runs away and to the sides. The rest of the day it was an 8 iron just short and let it bounce up.
I love both holes.

[John Kavanaugh]

Next time I play Red I am purposely hitting my tee shot into the front right bunker. I need to get past my fear. Not only does the green run away the ground does also. I must hit it 30 yds long every time.

[Tom_Doak]

Next time I play Red I am purposely hitting my tee shot into the front right bunker. I need to get past my fear. Not only does the green run away the ground does also. I must hit it 30 yds long every time.

That could get you past your fear ... or reinforce it.

I haven't played with that many people there, but I have yet to witness anyone hit it into the bunker on the right.

Before we started shaping, 85% of the green ran away to the back right.  We softened it a bit, so only 60% runs away now, but the entire thing slopes left to right in small terraces, so missing to the left leaves a very difficult recovery.

My own scorecard so far:

1  Dismal 10-9
2  halved
3  halved - hard for me to compare a short 3 and a medium/long 3, but I really like both holes

[John Kavanaugh]

I had such high hopes for the front right bunker. I can still dream that the ravages of winter will shape her into the visual goddess I had envisioned.

[John Kirk]

So long and right leaves the uphill pitch, but that is guarded by a huge right-hand bunker.  Clever.

After playing a few of Tom's courses, I determined that all design decisions are very logical.  Have you ever seen a design feature on one of Tom's courses that was counterintuitive?  Maybe we'll find one as we progress through the holes.

We need a picture of Dismal River #3, if anybody has one.
 

[Jimmy Muratt]

I have a couple of good pics of the 3rd hole from both the middle and back tees that I can email someone if they want to post.

[John Kavanaugh]

Theses are the best pictures of the Red 3rd that I have seen.


July 2011


May 2012

[David Davis]

David, my friend, how on earth did you arrive at the first tee when you visited SHGC?

One thing I'd like to point out is that after your injury during the 5th Major you were still able to compete because of the availability of a cart. Otherwise we would have had to WD. So carts aren't all bad, are they?
[/quote]


Eric, you know I played in a cart at SHGC. Again I walk all the time so actually I love taking a cart when I play golf in the US. When in Rome. However, this has nothing to do with the fact that I'm only giving MY opinion of these holes and all things being equal, I prefer to walk up the hill 1 minute away from the putting green and club house.

Don, yes of course I noticed, the setting is amazing. The courses are great fun, I have not said otherwise, only given my preference for the first hole of Ballyneal slightly above DR.

[John Kirk]

Here is a picture of the 3rd hole at Dismal River's new course, this one taken from the middle tees at about 165 yards.



What a beauty.  Thanks to Jimmy Muratt for the great picture.  And oh yeah, that right bunker is pretty big, isn't it?

[John Kavanaugh]

Round 4.  Smoke and mirrors.  The 4th at Ballyneal is the first hole that I had to research to remember what was going on past the view.  View off the tee, view of the 7th, view, view, view.  The urban myth of caddies lagging behind to gage visitors reactions as they are exposed to the expanse of the region is fascinating.  I love they view but doubt that it would have the same impact so late in the round.  Good to get it over with early.  Ballyneal is clearly the most photogenic inland course ever created yet pictures of this iconic view are rarely touted when promoting the course.  It is simply to beautiful for dots.  With that in mind, welcome to a pedestrian downhill par five.  Hits you like a Sugar Ray Leonard bolo punch, you never saw it coming because it was the only thing you were looking at.

The Red 4th will prove to be the first successful split fairway in modern golf.  A dangerous left side offering a view of the green with an eternally wide right side providing a blind approach.  One reason for the success of this experiment is because under the best of all possible conditions you may choose to avoid the split and go directly towards the green challenging another masterful pot bunker.  My last attempt to discover the hole was in a 20some.  Each of us partook of our own strategies leading to many different approaches.  Only one hit it inside the grip, yet most parred, but I regress.  I can not think of another hole where 20 golfers would aim for 14 different lines.  One of the truly perplexing design considerations for this hole is that there does not appear to be a back, back tee making it fun for everyone.

Verdict Red 10 - 9.

Running Card:

1. Red 10 - 8
2. BN  10 - 9
3  BN  10 - 8
4  Red 10 - 9

The match is even after 4 on my card. I would not have guessed that before the start of the match. I hope Red's young legs make the difference in an 18 round bout.  Ballyneal's beautiful face is looking a bit puffy.

[Adam Clayman]

Since I've yet to experience the DD (dismal doak) all I can comment on is the 1st hole. Recalling early remarks made about the hole in Mullen was that it was a handshake start, requiring the highly undulating green to raise it's bar. What strikes me as odd, is how does a hole go from being a ho hummer, to beating out what Darius Oliver sites as one of the best openers in the sport?

[John Kavanaugh]

Since I've yet to experience the DD (dismal doak) all I can comment on is the 1st hole. Recalling early remarks made about the hole in Mullen was that it was a handshake start, requiring the highly undulating green to raise it's bar. What strikes me as odd, is how does a hole go from being a ho hummer, to beating out what Darius Oliver sites as one of the best openers in the sport?

The Red 1st was not a handshake for Kirk. The drive is welcoming, the approach perplexing. It's like when the pizza man is greeted at the door in a Greek neighborhood by a naked housewife. Tread lightly with your choices.

I love an early par 5 where you can reach the green with a heroic shot but know the smart choice is to lay up. You are not going to win a tournament on this type of hole but you may lose it. Even your sweet spot is challenged by the collecting pot bunker.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I see the 4th at Ballyneal as anything but "pedestrian".  Yes, the view is spectacular, but there is far more to the merits of the hole than the view.  The greensite is one of my favorite on the course as it sits elevated in the dunes well above the fairway.  Under the rirght conditions, it's reachable.  Into the wind, you should lay back to the left side with your second to leave the best view for your approach.  

The 4th at Dismal is an extremely strategic mid-length par 4.  Pin position really dictates club selection and the best line off of the tee.  It's one of my favorite greens on the course with an evil little bunker behind the green.  That bunker seems to be a magnet for my golf balls.  Recovery from over that green is challenging, to say the least.  

Again, two very different golf holes, I give this round to Ballyneal.....10-9.

[Jim Colton]

The 4th is definitely my favorite hole on the upper 8.

One thing I wanted to point out from the boxing link John posted: "Therefore, if you can avoid scoring a round even, it is often best to do so."

[Bruce Wellmon]

DR Red 4.

BN 4.

[John Kirk]

I messed up the 4th hole at Dismal River.

It plays about 380 yards.  From the tee, the 150 posts looked about even with the back edge of the large center fairway bunker, so I figured it was about 230, downhill and slightly downwind to carry it.  Without much other information to go by, I hit 5-wood (my second driving club), which should leave a wedge shot in.  But I made a terrible swing and blocked it a mile right.  Watching with great interest, hoping to catch green grass, it landed on a narrow tongue of grass, way down there, just 5-10 yards over the native.  I estimated 135 to the center and maybe 145 to a pin of the little back shelf, quickly picked a line as I did not want to take too much time, and skulled a 9-iron in the general direction of the hole.  My primary concern at this point was that I hadn't decapitated my wife.

Thankfully, the architecture accommodated that sh*t.  The ball ended up much better than I deserved, about pin high five yards left of the green.  After a modest attempt putting down the slope, I made an easy two putt bogey.

Ben Sims loves this hole.  He told me how the green was entirely natural, just sitting there in little cascading tiers to be smoothed and planted.

When I look at the picture Bruce Wellmon provides, I ask why would anybody want to challenge one side of the fairway, when there's a big flat plateau (beyond and just right of the fairway bunker) for a short pitch?  Just hit the shot that gets you there.  Like the 14th hole at Ballyneal, it's a hole I would try to hit the same spot every time, and let short iron play take over.

The drive on Ballyneal's 4th is a bit dangerous.  Even though it's wide, it seems a significant percentage of balls go astray here.  Dave Hensley and the crew have done a nice job clearing out areas where the misses often go.  The reward for a good drive is significant, and going for the green in two is exciting.  Sometimes I lay up to the left, especially when the pin is tucked behind the two front right greenside bunkers.  A bad miss is hitting the greenside bunkers when the pin is middle or back.  The greenside bunkers at #4 have steep surrounding slopes and yucca plants, and yield the occasional rare play.  Finally, I do not want to be in the fairway 20-40 yards short of the green, and would much rather have a full shot in.

It is another Ballyneal green which results in a significant number of long, relatively straight putts.  In addition, reading putts at Ballyneal is very easy and straightforward.  It's not tricky that way at all.

I would very much enjoy hearing more detailed descriptions from others, especially the "Dismal River" guys.  To me, the 4th looks like the AOL man from the tee.  Tell me what's so great about this hole.  



Ballyneal wins round 4, 10-9.

[Jason Topp]

I find the picture of DR 4 very confusing.  Is the right fairway near that green?  Where is the bunker?

[John Kirk]

Here is another photo of Dismal River's 4th hole.  I can see here that you might consider going left, if there were a big advantage to approaching certain pin positions.  Also, I didn't remember the second little bunker behind the big fairway bunker.  Does that bunker snag drives that go too long?

[John Kavanaugh]

The pot bunker past the split fairway is very much in play.  I found it on my limited play.  The left side is much wider than shown in these pictures and allows a look at the green.  Any medium to short hitter that goes right will be faced with a totally blind shot which becomes exponentially more difficult for the range finder crowd.

[John Kavanaugh]

The above pic shows the fall off of the third green very well.  The feeling like you are practically hitting over the third green is interesting and something I had not noticed before.  It won't be an issue during any normal flow of play.  Interesting tho.