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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #250 on: October 11, 2013, 10:55:32 AM »
The 13th hole at Ballyneal typically plays 430 yards, from the tee box next to the 12th green.  There is a seldom used back tee at 510 yards; the tee shot from there is the longest forced carry on the course.

Here is a picture of the 13th hole in 2004, before construction.  Photo courtesy of Dick Durrance.  I hope he doesn't mind.



And the finished product is here.



The fairway is perhaps 90-100 yards across at its widest point.  I generally try to play down the center, a few yards right of the small pot bunker.  The left side tends to yield flatter lies, appears to give the best angle of attack for right side hole locations behind that big greenside bunker, but I'm not so sure.  The two big bunkers on the right side of the fairway are about 300 yards away from the 430 yard tee.  The approach shot from there to right side pins may be shorter and more reliable, though one has to carry the large greenside hazard.  Once again, the green is wild, with a broad ridge separating the left and right sides of the green.  Your approach shot should be past the hole for most right side hole locations.

There's a trough that traverses the center of the fairway in my typical landing zone.  More than half of the time I have a significant uphill lie for my second shot, which makes right side hole locations tougher to access.

This ends an amazing streak of golf holes where a player can drive it into the wrong part of the fairway and have a blind approach shot.  This can happen on holes 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 and 13.

The front left pin location is much easier than the others.  My friend Ryan Beaty once made an eagle here, from the 430 yard tee box.  He drove the green, with very little wind assistance, and made a 20 footer for a 2.  That's just crazy.


I'm going to let the Dismal River guys handle most of the discussion of their 13th hole.  It's 496 yards from the back tee, and the cross bunkers at the dogleg are too far for old John to carry.  It is an exceptionally beautiful golf hole.  I would guess it is among the most difficult holes on the course.

The tee shot, courtesy of Jimmy Muratt:



The following photo is a closeup of Dismal River's 13th green, courtesy of L.C. Lambrecht.  I do not believe this hole is well suited to a low, running approach.  A high soft approach should always be attempted, if possible.  A ridge extends across the fairway off the short right bunker, pushing balls left and slowing them down.  In addition, the fairway beyond that point, between the ridge and the green, falls away from the green in both directions.

The green is wonderful, not so much an upside down bowl, but more an upside down plate.  It looks benign, but I found it to be quite intimidating.  



Finally, here is a glamorous photo of Dismal River's 13th hole, with the late summer sunflowers in full bloom, and the buffalo run framed behind the green.



One final architecture comment.  This hole is significantly downhill, but here and everywhere else on Dismal, I never felt like I was walking up or down a steep grade.  For all the elevation changes, the walking grades are as gentle as could be hoped for.

I think it's fair to say that Dismal River's 500 yard par 4 is more spectacular looking.  I am not convinced that it has the flexibility nor the variety that Ballyneal's 13th hole provides.  Therefore, I believe it is a draw.

Draw (10-10).

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #251 on: October 11, 2013, 01:00:28 PM »
John,

Thanks for continuing to post the pictures.  It's great to see the before/after pics of the 13th at Ballyneal, very cool stuff.  And, the last pic of the approach into the 13th at Dismal is the best I've seen of that hole.

Jimmy

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #252 on: October 11, 2013, 02:23:02 PM »
With only five holes to go I will resume my reviews on Monday.  I think we all know why this site is dead on the weekends.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #253 on: October 11, 2013, 03:05:39 PM »
With only five holes to go I will resume my reviews on Monday.  I think we all know why this site is dead on the weekends.

My wife gives you a mile long "to do" list too?  ;)
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #254 on: October 11, 2013, 10:25:13 PM »
Thanks for posting the "before and after" shots of Ballyneal.  I've always been very interested in how the land originally looked.  #13 at Ballyneal is one of the best holes out there.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #255 on: October 11, 2013, 11:09:16 PM »

Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 5...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 6...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 7...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 8...Ballyneal 10-8
Hole 9...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 10...Push
Hole 11...Dismal Doak 10-8
Hole 12...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 13...Ballyneal 10-9


The upcoming stretch at Dismal Doak is one of the very best in golf.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #256 on: October 14, 2013, 10:17:46 AM »
Round 14. Rope a Dope

The fact that the match is even on my card at this point is a testament to Ballyneal's greatness.  The 14th is no exception as it is another great stand alone hole.  I again had to do some research to refresh my memory of the hole and found this quote by Tom Doak that does a nice job explaining the structure:

"At first glance some would dismiss this as another "breather" hole, especially since (for my game, at least) the best approach is to hit a lay-up tee shot short of the center fairway bunker.  However, it seems to tempt people to try and overpower it, and most of them live to regret the decision -- even though many will try and overpower the hole again the next time.  I've seen a lot of sixes here after big drives.

Besides the second and ninth, this was the other hole which had to be massaged significantly to make the routing work.  Creating the green site involved quite a bit of cutting to enlarge a small gap in the dunes.  We could have built the green straight on as a driveable par-4, but that would have meant a REALLY long walk to the next tee, and I couldn't stomach that break in play at this point in the round."

The Red 14th is more than just a great hole on its own.  It is the front door to an architectural kibbutz like none I thought I would ever see on a defined sequence of holes.  The expanse of fairway most encompassing the 14th through 17th fairways makes one feel part of a community of golfers even if you are alone on the course.  I've got to give credit to Don M for his ability to irrigate such an expanse of grass so efficiently allowing us this rare experience.  This theme continues until and through the 18th tee.  Thanks Don.

The hole itself is referenced by given template names and this and that for which I nod to and off at.  I'm not enough of a historian to put the all that in perspective.  The drive accepts any shot shape of excellence from high power draw to low running fade.  The right fairway bunker looks like death but I haven't had the pleasure as yet.  Going left leads to a blind shot to an inviting green.  Simplistic and diverse without a touch of boredom.  This hole is perfect in every respect which is why it doesn't require use of the surrounding topography outside the boundaries of play for interest.  ie: It runs parallel to the horseshoes.

Verdit. Red 10 - 8

Running card:

1.  Red 10 - 8
2.  BN  10 - 9
3.  BN  10 - 8
4.  Red 10 - 9
5.  Red 10 - 8
6   Red 10 - 9
7.  BN   10 - 9
8.  BN   10 - 8
9.  Red  10 - 9
10. BN  10 - 9
11. Red 10 - 9
12. BN  10 - 8
13. Red 10 - 9
14. Red 10 - 8

Red goes up 2 points.


Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #257 on: October 14, 2013, 11:00:51 AM »
The Red 14th is more than just a great hole on its own.  It is the front door to an architectural kibbutz like none I thought I would ever see on a defined sequence of holes.

John...you are correct.  This hole is a mind-blower, that gets better and better and better the more you play it.  The options and choices are real and come to life in differing winds.  

But, as great as this hole is...it opens the door to something even better concerning the routing of the course.  And I'm not talking low-level comprehension of routing...tees are close to greens, etc.  I'm talking the stacking of intellectual golf challenges one after another in a truly genius fashion, so that one hole's keys highlight the next holes keys, tasks, and challenges...and they all tie in perfectly with the existing terrain to produce genuinely fun and interesting golf that is at peace and harmony with the natural terrain.  Perhaps the highest praise I can give an architect and his work.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #258 on: October 14, 2013, 11:02:55 AM »
Pictures of the two golf holes:

Tee shot at Ballyneal's 14th hole:



Well known, spooky photo of Ballyneal's 14th green.  I believe this photo is courtesy of Dick Durrance.



Tee shot at Dismal River's 14th hole, courtesy of the spooky Cliff Walston:
 


Looking from the left side of Dismal River's 14th green, courtesy of L.C. Lambrecht.



I like every hole at Ballyneal, everything about the course.  The 14th hole is only 350 yards long, and some very strong drivers may attempt to drive the green under the right conditions, but it's a very long carry over the dune, and the rewards don't seem to match the risks.

I always play the 14th at Ballyneal the same way.  I try to drive the ball five yards short of the Bunny bunker in the left center of the fairway.  There is a flat spot there.   Usually I tee the ball low, choke up on a driver, and take a small swing, the "bunny" driver shot.   From there, it's 110-120 uphill to the green.  Missing right of the green is the primary concern; the ball rolls way down the hill.

It is a simple, elegant hole.


Does anybody attempt to drive Dismal River's 14th green?  I can see playing the hole 75-100 yards shorter, and watching inebriated friends wind up and try to launch one over the left dune.

I nominate the name "Gap" for the 14th hole at Dismal River, as a suggestion for a new design template.  This hole reminded me of the 14th hole at Rock Creek Cattle Company, which also plays through a gap.  You could also say it is an Alps hole, but it's too short, and too easy to get around the dune and have a good look.  I like Gap.  I see that John has already announced he will nod off at my template name suggestion.  Sorry.

I noticed that the right half of the green has a big backstop, which will catch long approach shots and redirect them to the green, a relatively uncommon feature at Dismal River (Red).

Both terrific golf holes.  Standing alone, I like Dismal River's a bit better.

Dismal River wins.  (10-9)




Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #259 on: October 14, 2013, 11:15:49 AM »
I agree with John Kirk that the 14th at Ballyneal is a great hole.  No way it loses 10-8 to any hole.  Options off the tee by either taking driver left or right of the center bunker or laying up short of it.  Incredibly difficult green, but manageable because you have a short iron or wedge into the hole.  I really love the hole.

That being said, I also agree with John Kirk and John Kavanaugh and 14 at Dismal Red is possibly the best hole on the golf course.  I do think that it is a gorgeous view back up the hillside to the clubhouse - John Kavanaugh, you don't need the "horns" for beauty on the Red.  The way that the drive and the second shot play together is truly special - making this a gorgeous, strategic, well designed hole.  

Dismal Red #14 beats Ballyneal #14, but no hole can knock Ballyneal #14 down on the canvas.

Dismal Red 10-9.

Dismal Red leads by 2 points on my card.....going into 2 holes that are very hard to compare.  However, as I indicated in my first post, I have only walked Dismal Red so my card is less credible than others on this string.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 11:31:11 AM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #260 on: October 14, 2013, 11:17:06 AM »
The approach DR Red 14th. From the right center of the fairway. (The left mound is not visible).

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #261 on: October 14, 2013, 11:18:34 AM »
Once again I need to catch up slightly.

I really love both #13th holes, but I think that #13 is one of the best and most underappreciated holes on the course. The hole plays fairly long and the pin is often tucked behind the dune guarding the right side. It is as tough of a birdie as we have on the course, but with enough play, it is a very fair par and trying to navigate your drive around/short/past the fairway bunkers and in the correct spot to have a look at the green is what make this the winner in my mind. BN 10-9

The 14th hole at Ballyneal is one of my absolute favorites. It is a sneeky bugger! I have seen many doubles when guys have put their first shots in good positions in the fairway. The fairway is wide, with even more room to the right than you would guess. However, with the severe slope on the right side of the green, it is a magnet for mishit balls to funnel down into the collection area. I really love this hole.

The 14th at Dismal Red is a very unique hole and I have played it 4 different ways and still am not sure of the best strategy. It is a truly unique hole that is a pleasure to play and based on uniqueness this one takes the match in a very close one. Anyone who believes this is a route has not played BN 14 enough to see the genius behind that hole. DR 10-9.



(I edited to clarify where the sever slope on 14 BN was located. Nothing else changed)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 11:21:58 AM by Stephen Davis »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #262 on: October 14, 2013, 11:32:46 AM »
Rather if it is fair or not my 10 - 8 was made possible by the interaction of Red's 14th fairway with the surrounding holes.  I made up my mind long ago that despite this being a boxing match there would not be a knock out punch.  Ballyneal could have gotten that done in the 8th after the hard body shots delivered in the 7th.  Same goes for this round for the Red.  You want template names, I like the Gate.  The Red 14th opens a gate to an rare experience.

Currently I have each course winning a round 10 - 8.  I still have no idea how it will end.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #263 on: October 14, 2013, 11:34:26 AM »
Due to my no edit policy I have to clarify here that currently I have each course winning 3 rounds 10 - 8.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #264 on: October 14, 2013, 12:02:54 PM »
It sure is a pretty part of the new golf course, John.  Larry Lambrecht's photo shows off the little four hole corner of golf nicely.  You've got to be pretty happy about that.

I wish there was more discussion about hole specifics, and more participation by those in the know.

Matt Elliot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #265 on: October 14, 2013, 05:14:56 PM »
This is my first post on the site and I would first like to thank Ran for allowing me to become a part of such a great place.  I have been reading for over a year now and want to let all of you know what a great site this is!

As for this post I want to thank all of you for your great information.  I have not played either course yet but I have seen Dismal Red in the making the past two summers.  I love the White course at Dismal but I find myself already emotionally attached to the Red through the pictures and my time seeing it grow in!  Ballyneal is on my short list to play in 2014! I find both courses very appealing to my eye and I am already looking forward to round 15! The 15th at Dismal Red looks like an awesome golf hole! 

Again thanks for the input and hard work you guys are putting into making this a very enjoyable and informative read!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 05:39:09 PM by Matt Elliot »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #266 on: October 14, 2013, 05:25:00 PM »
The 14th and 15th at Dismal were the last two holes in the routing, and owe much to Eric Iverson's input.

At various points in the process we had a couple of holes out past #1 to the east, an extra hole or two out beyond #4, and 12th hole with a different green site that would have been followed by a par-3 back near the current 13th back tee.  Our next-to-last routing included the first and last holes mentioned, and when I asked Eric what he thought were our two weakest holes, he named the same two I was thinking, so I new we weren't done.  It was at that point that he volunteered he liked the idea of having 14 and 15 out in the middle of everything.

We had looked at those holes previously, but I was concerned about all the drainage coming down the valley and across 14 and 15 from above.  We looked at it hard, and decided that if we put in some major drainage, we ought to be okay except in the case of a really massive storm ... one of these years, there will probably be some repair work to do on both holes.  But I loved the idea of having all these holes come together between 13 and 17; it's sort of an extension of that little area at Ballyneal on holes 4-7 where you get to connect with other golfers, instead of the routing being a giant loop where you only ever see the group in front of you.  Dismal has two of them now ... there is much the same feel coming off #4 green to #8 tee and with all the interaction of 5, 6 and 7.  

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #267 on: October 14, 2013, 09:17:31 PM »
The 14th at Ballyneal is very good example of that mid length drive and pitch hole that doesn't get much attention.  The kind of hole that under most circumstances is a driver and little wedge in.  The very short 4's and long, beastly 4's get most of the attention but I think holes of this length are vital.  Pete Dye always seemed to do this length of hole well.

Dismal's 14th hole is special.  As mentioned by others, this is a very cool and intimate section of the course.  From the tee, your eyes are immediately drawn to the fairway bunkers and the large sand hills on the left and right.  Club selection and shot placement are dictated by the wind and hole location.  Not much has been said about the greensite but it is very cool.  Their is a shoulder to the right of the green which works very well to help access certain pins.  The green slopes to the left around the lone small bunker which is not the place to miss.  A buddy of mine hit his tee shot within 40 yards of the green and short right, pin was on the left side.  He proceeded to putt the ball right of the bunker, used the slope on the back of the green to bring it back down and left, leaving himself three feet for birdie.  That's just one example of the variety and options around that green.

A terrific hole, Dismal takes the 14th......10-9...



Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9
7.  Ballyneal 10-9
8.  Ballyneal 10-8
9.  Dismal 10-8
10.  Push 10-10
11.  Dismal  10-9
12.  Ballyneal  10-9
13.  Dismal  10-9
14.  Dismal 10-9

Dismal moves to 2 up on my card through 14 holes.

Chris Shaida

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #268 on: October 14, 2013, 09:34:14 PM »
Since we are between rounds I'll join Peter P as a 'card girl' and point out to the viewers at home the 'architectural kibbutz' phrase (frankly, at first I was sure that JKa had a few too many by that point at and must have meant to type 'blitz' but then realized that he really meant kibbutz -- fantastic!) and the very clever captioning of 'spooky photo' to 'spooky Cliff Walston' by JKi.  Three cheers to both the insights and the writing!  Now back to the action...

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #269 on: October 14, 2013, 11:06:36 PM »
Shaida...

Never underestimate Kavanaugh.  He's not as dumb as he looks.

 ;)
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #270 on: October 14, 2013, 11:23:25 PM »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #271 on: October 15, 2013, 08:43:58 AM »
Round 15.  This is gonna hurt.

There was some discussion about the difficulty of comparing these holes.  Funny enough but I find them very similar.  When choosing the correct tee in adequate conditions you are faced with a massaged driver.  One is easier than the other but after the journey just crossed score is going to matter to the very few.  

The 15th at Ballyneal is the type of par 3 that excites me specifically because enjoy the moonball driver.  It reminds me of the envy I felt for those lucky children who had a shot at that last bucket on the grand prize game.  Pure fun.

The Red 15th can also be a drivable hole if you choose the correct tee or a layup par 4 under diverse conditions.  It is another that I can't wait to play.  A perfect situation which can only be spoiled by your own inadequacies.  You are on your own here.  

Verdict.  Ballyneal 10 - 9

Running card:

1.  Red 10 - 8
2.  BN  10 - 9
3.  BN  10 - 8
4.  Red 10 - 9
5.  Red 10 - 8
6   Red 10 - 9
7.  BN   10 - 9
8.  BN   10 - 8
9.  Red  10 - 9
10. BN  10 - 9
11. Red 10 - 9
12. BN  10 - 8
13. Red 10 - 9
14. Red 10 - 8
15. BN  10 - 9

Ballyneal pulls within 1 point with three rounds remaining.

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #272 on: October 15, 2013, 10:03:47 AM »
15th holes:

The 15th at Ballyneal is my least favorite of it's par 3s.  I typically hit anywhwere from a 5 iron to a 4 wood, depending on the wind.  Tee balls that land short will feed onto the green and, it kind of plays like a punchbowl but there isn't as much slope on the back.  For it's length, I find it a fairly easy hole, at least to make par.  A good hole, just my least favorite of the par 3s at Ballyneal.

The 15th at a driveable par 4 with many decisions to be made from the tee.  Attempting to drive the green is very risky as the green is protected by a steep false front and collection area beyond.  Even a well struck tee shot can leave you with a very awkward second shot, especially to get close.  For me, I have found the best play is to hit a 210 yard shot well out to the right side, avoiding the mogul field on the left and leaving myself with a semi-flat lie.  This is a good angle to attack pin positions on the left side of the green.  If the pin is on the right, I typically just play to the middle of the green from here.  It's really an exciting wedge shot to hit as the perched green has trouble all around.  Again, it's the kind of hole that is playable and enjoyable by all skill levels.  

Dismal takes this hole easily for me.....10-8.


Card:
1.  Dismal 10-9
2.  Dismal 10-9
3.  Push 10-10
4.  Ballyneal 10-9
5.  Ballyneal 10-9
6.  Dismal 10-9
7.  Ballyneal 10-9
8.  Ballyneal 10-8
9.  Dismal 10-8
10.  Push 10-10
11.  Dismal  10-9
12.  Ballyneal  10-9
13.  Dismal  10-9
14.  Dismal  10-9
15.  Dismal  10-8

Dismal is getting some separation on my card, now up 3 holes through 15.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #273 on: October 15, 2013, 11:33:21 AM »
Both photos here are provided courtesy of L.C. Lambrecht.  His website is www.golfstock.net.



The 15th hole at Dismal River plays up to 315 yards long.  It was playing into the wind the day I was there, so I just tried to drive the ball down where I had a full shot in, and left my wedge a foot short, falling into the little depression short of the center of the green, and couldn't get up and down.  It hurt me that I couldn't easily get an exact yardage.  I like the raised right side of the green, which will catch shots and redirect them down onto the right side of the green.  It sure is pretty, and looks tempting to try and hit driver close much of the time.  The bunker locations are compelling; each would require a very good second shot to make par.

It's very easy to see the logic in this hole design.

"Captain, the hole designs on this course are all very logical."






The 15th hole at Ballyneal is 237 yards long from the back tee, according to the scorecard, but only about 225-230 yards according to GPS devices.  As you can see it is a long par 3 played into a large, natural bowl in the dunes.  In a recent poll among past and present Ballyneal members, this hole was voted the 17th favorite hole on the course.  A rare golf architecture discussion spilled over onto Facebook.  After I mentioned that the 15th hole scored much higher than 17th best for me, the following comments were made:    

#1 wrote, "15 is by far my least favorite. It's the only hole where luck plays too big a role. I thought it was so cool the first 10 spins around. Unfortunately, multiple plays expose its many weaknesses."

#2 wrote, "15 is my favorite. The genius part of this green is that it is fairly easy to par it, but is VERY difficult to get a birdie since you need to be able to "see" the pin in your head and figure out the flight pattern and roll to get the ball close to the pin. And it is not a easy puzzle to figure out. Add the fact that getting over the hump to green is kinda like opening a box of chocolates, it is just pure pleasure to play."

#3 wrote, "15 will perhaps not appeal to those looking for reward. I suppose there is a continuum between reward & fair v. random/quirk that plays into preference some holes. On par 3's, there is one shot before putting and that really plays on better players at times. That may be one explanation why 15 comes out low."

#4 wrote, "I rank 15 last because if I were to walk the property before the course was there, I never would've turned that direction."

Back pins on hole #15 are very difficult, because the back of the green slopes away for the most part, and making the common error of leaving it short usually leaves a very difficult second shot.

To those who feel that it is either too quirky, the bounces too random, or just that the nature of the bowl causes mishits to bounce into undesirable places, let's consider how this hole would play if the area around the green was dead flat, or if the green was raised and balls bounced away from the target.  Would the bounces be more predictable, more fair, and more enjoyable?  This hole would be monstrously difficult if the green was perched on a dune with falloffs on all sides.  On average, the bowl gathers shots and brings them close to the target.  The contours in the front half of the bowl are quite regular and predictable, and are considered when imagining the tee shot.

I fell in love with Ballyneal #15 at first sight, so I'm prejudiced.  But consider that the Punchbowl 18th hole at Old Macdonald is widely beloved by this group, yet produces a far smaller variety of results than the 15th hole at Ballyneal.  I disagree with the consensus choice of 17th best, but I have to respect the other opinions.

I dunno.  My heart says Ballyneal, but last night I had planned to go Dismal River.  I may change this later, but I have to go.

Draw (10-10).

 



« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 11:53:10 AM by John Kirk »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match
« Reply #274 on: October 15, 2013, 11:58:38 AM »
John,

Throughout the history of this site the 15th at Ballyneal has been pooh pooed.  I never understood why.  Thanks for the insight into the Facebook discussion.  I hurt me deeply to award this round to Ballyneal as I love Red 15.  Because of statements I had made prior I had a moral obligation to remain steadfast for my love of the long par 3.  Oddly enough it may be the least doak Doak I have ever played.  No offense intended.