Dismal Red vs Ballyneal, a boxing match

[Bruce Wellmon]

When I look at the picture Bruce Wellmon provides, I ask why would anybody want to challenge one side of the fairway, when there's a big flat plateau (beyond and just right of the fairway bunker) for a short pitch?  Just hit the shot that gets you there.  Like the 14th hole at Ballyneal, it's a hole I would try to hit the same spot every time, and let short iron play take over.

I would very much enjoy hearing more detailed descriptions from others, especially the "Dismal River" guys.  To me, the 4th looks like the AOL man from the tee.  Tell me what's so great about this hole.  

Ballyneal wins round 4, 10-9.

John,
        Depending on the wind, I think I have had 40 yards in or a 6 or 7 iron in.
You mentioned the tiers to the green. Even with a short approach, hitting the correct tier is tricky. This may look easy, but getting it to stay on the back tier wasn't.

Into the wind, it becomes a different hole. Can I clear the bunker? If I go left, the fairway is more narrow, and your approach is at least partially blind, by the dune short and left. If you go right to the fat part of the fairway, and down into the swale, then you are completely blind. For me, only when playing downwind, do I get a good look at this green.

[Tom_Doak]

I messed up the 4th hole at Dismal River.

It plays about 380 yards.  From the tee, the 150 posts looked about even with the back edge of the large center fairway bunker, so I figured it was about 230, downhill and slightly downwind to carry it.  Without much other information to go by, I hit 5-wood (my second driving club), which should leave a wedge shot in.  But I made a terrible swing and blocked it a mile right.  Watching with great interest, hoping to catch green grass, it landed on a narrow tongue of grass, way down there, just 5-10 yards over the native.  I estimated 135 to the center and maybe 145 to a pin of the little back shelf, quickly picked a line as I did not want to take too much time, and skulled a 9-iron in the general direction of the hole.  My primary concern at this point was that I hadn't decapitated my wife.

Thankfully, the architecture accommodated that sh*t.  The ball ended up much better than I deserved, about pin high five yards left of the green.  After a modest attempt putting down the slope, I made an easy two putt bogey.

Ben Sims loves this hole.  He told me how the green was entirely natural, just sitting there in little cascading tiers to be smoothed and planted.

When I look at the picture Bruce Wellmon provides, I ask why would anybody want to challenge one side of the fairway, when there's a big flat plateau (beyond and just right of the fairway bunker) for a short pitch?  Just hit the shot that gets you there.  Like the 14th hole at Ballyneal, it's a hole I would try to hit the same spot every time, and let short iron play take over.

The drive on Ballyneal's 4th is a bit dangerous.  Even though it's wide, it seems a significant percentage of balls go astray here.  Dave Hensley and the crew have done a nice job clearing out areas where the misses often go.  The reward for a good drive is significant, and going for the green in two is exciting.  Sometimes I lay up to the left, especially when the pin is tucked behind the two front right greenside bunkers.  A bad miss is hitting the greenside bunkers when the pin is middle or back.  The greenside bunkers at #4 have steep surrounding slopes and yucca plants, and yield the occasional rare play.  Finally, I do not want to be in the fairway 20-40 yards short of the green, and would much rather have a full shot in.

It is another Ballyneal green which results in a significant number of long, relatively straight putts.  In addition, reading putts at Ballyneal is very easy and straightforward.  It's not tricky that way at all.

I would very much enjoy hearing more detailed descriptions from others, especially the "Dismal River" guys.  To me, the 4th looks like the AOL man from the tee.  Tell me what's so great about this hole.

This is an EXCELLENT example of why golf course rankings are such b.s.  John is normally a very observant guy, but he hit a bad tee shot on this hole in his one play, and really does not understand the hole at all ... he did not even see the central bunker, or get any appreciation for the different angles of approach and how they interact with the contours of the green.  Nor does he have any sense of the fine line between not getting far enough up the right side, and going too far and leaving yourself in the rough up top, with a bad line to the green past the right bunker and right into the back bunker.

So, therefore, he rates the hole as not as good as a hole on one of his favorite courses, that he knows 100x better.

Raters miss a lot, but they usually won't admit it.

As to this hole, I like it a lot, but I think John underrates the Ballyneal hole as well.  Difficult to compare a good short 4 and a good par 5, as with the respective first holes, but I don't see giving both 1 AND 4 to Dismal over Ballyneal.  In fact, if you compared the first of each course to the fourth hole of the other, we would probably just have a bunch of 10-10 even rounds to start with.

[Joel_Stewart]

Raters miss a lot, but they usually won't admit it.

I admit it.  Bob McCoy once told me that if you're only going to play a course once and rate it, forget about your score and always play the ball down the middle.  In honesty, how can you evaluate a course if you're in the trees or rough?

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

I've taken some liberties, and been bashed behind the scenes, with my use of 10 - 8's.  I love both these holes and in no way am bashing the 4th at Ballyneal giving it a 9 against what I think is the finest split fairway hole I have ever played.  I can tell you that I think the downhill 4th at Ballyneal is better than the downhill 8th on Red.  You can only fight those in front of you so in an Ali/Frazier type bout somebody is gonna lose a round fought well.

I feel like the use of 10 - 8's makes this more interesting than a typical golf match with is just win/lose.  Sometimes a hole is better than that. I have yet to see a 10 - 7.  That would be serious.

[Cliff Walston]

I don't have anything to add to the duel, given that I have not played Ballyneal.  But I am headed to Dismal in the morning armed with my camera and intend to channel my inner Saltzman upon my return.  I am sure my first attempt at a photo tour will fall short, but perhaps the images can be used to further the boxing match.

Cliff Walston

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't have anything to add to the duel, given that I have not played Ballyneal.  But I am headed to Dismal in the morning armed with my camera and intend to channel my inner Saltzman upon my return.  I am sure my first attempt at a photo tour will fall short, but perhaps the images can be used to further the boxing match.

Cliff Walston

Cliff,

Are you participating in the HFRO?  While in the area beg, borrow or steal to get on Ballyneal.  It's a can't miss!!!  Well worth a day trip from Mullen.

[Cliff Walston]

Cliff,

Are you participating in the HFRO?  While in the area beg, borrow or steal to get on Ballyneal.  It's a can't miss!!!  Well worth a day trip from Mullen.
[/quote]

JK,

No I am not in the HFRO.  (Not even sure what that is.)  Just making one last quick trip out there before the season closes.  My wife had a weak moment this morning and agreed to let me get out there before the cold front hits on Thursday, so its 5:45 am flight tomorrow and a short two day trip there for me.  Ballyneal is a top priority next year.  It looks amazing.  I am hoping CJ and the powers that be in Holyoke work out a reciprocal deal one of these years.

[Eric Smith]

Red 4



A cool, low profile green with a nice bit of movement. This view is from right of the greenside bunkers.


That's 7 green in the upper left hand side of the picture.

[Andrew Buck]

Based on nothing but the pictures and the sense I can get from only them, I'd have to go

1 DR
2 BN
3 BN
4 DR

to this point.

[Jerry Kluger]

I look at #4 at BN and it seems that everyone should hit that fairway yet I would bet that half the people I've played it with have missed the fairway off the tee on one side or the other.  Then you wind up usually with an uneven lie and if you try and play it the short way down the right side you very often miss the fairway and wind up on the side of the dune.  Then there is the green which is absolutely a blast.  I bet that now with more people using lasers the green may play a bit easier but it is still a hoot.

I have had the opportunity to play BN and SH quite a few times and I don't see them very far apart, if at all.  Why would you try to compare a brand new course, which needs at least another year of maturity to be realistically evaluated, to either one?  It will no doubt be highly recognized but I don't see this comparison to have any validity if you don't take BN as the standard and see if DR can compare rather than trying to criticize BN.  

[Morgan Clawson]

Great photo Eric!

[Mac Plumart]

I'm a bit pressed for time lately, but I'll add my 2 cents.  

(As an FYI, I've been round Dismal Doak 6 times and Ballyneal 5).

Hole 1...Dismal Doak 10-9
Hole 2...Push
Hole 3...Ballyneal 10-9
Hole 4...Dismal Doak 10-8


Hole 1 on Dismal Doak is my favorite opening hole in golf.  Tee shot will let you get off the tee without getting killed, but things get progessively more difficult the closer you get to the hole.  The centerline bunker on the approach is perfectly placed and the ridge in the middle of the green is off the charts awesome.

Hole 3 on Ballyneal is a stunner.

Hole 4 at Dismal Doak is one of the very best short par 4s I've ever played.  The absolute brilliance of the hole, the centerline bunker, the two sides of the fairway, and the green complex become more and more apparent with more and more plays in different wind conditions.

[Eric Smith]

I don't see this comparison to have any validity if you don't take BN as the standard and see if DR can compare rather than trying to criticize BN.  

Jerry,

Where's your spirit? It's a thread on the internet about golf courses. The JK's are doing a bang up job keeping it fun. At least no one has called either a Doak 6. Yet.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jerry,

I have a measure of experience playing courses from day 1. In almost every case a course diminishes architecturally with age.

[Michael George]

Why would you try to compare a brand new course, which needs at least another year of maturity to be realistically evaluated, to either one?  It will no doubt be highly recognized but I don't see this comparison to have any validity if you don't take BN as the standard and see if DR can compare rather than trying to criticize BN.  

Jerry - because it is fun and it is only golf. Honestly, I never get pissed about opinions on golf courses, even my own club.  Too many other "real life" things get me in a bad mood to let golf get me that way.

I have only walked Dismal River Red so I was not going to opine, but based on my statement above, I shouldn't care about such a technicality:.  Just call me the Russian judge that everyone questions after the bout!!  Also, both courses are truly incredible so there is no wrong answer so long as your final scorecard does not call for a knock-out by one or other other.  My scorecard is:

#1 - Ballyneal 10-9 - Both solid, nice handshakes, but neither is distinguishable.  While I am fine with the drive to the first tee (ala Dismal White and Sand Hills), I do prefer to start at the clubhouse.  As that should be worth something, Ballyneal gets the edge.

#2 - Ballyneal 10-9 - A tough call.  I really loved both holes.  I gave Ballyneal the edge because of the ramp to the right of the green that kicks balls left onto the green - the first truly fun shot on a very fun golf course.  As John and Jim don't want ties, I give this one to Ballyneal.

#3 - Dismal Red 10-9 - I like both holes, but Dismal River wins out.  Dismal River #3 is great hole with the "Cracken" bunker to the right lingering in your mind.  I also liked Ballyneal #3, but still don't know what to think about the mound left of the green - I usually love that kind of quirk, but thought it was a little odd on this hole with its placement.

#4 - Dismal Red 10-9 - Both are good holes, but agree with Jim Colton that #4 at Dismal Red is the best hole on the front 8.  #4 at Ballyneal is a truly world class tee shot and great 3rd shot, but the second shot is a normal long iron or utility to a wide fairway.

[John Kirk]

This is an EXCELLENT example of why golf course rankings are such b.s.  John is normally a very observant guy, but he hit a bad tee shot on this hole in his one play, and really does not understand the hole at all ... he did not even see the central bunker, or get any appreciation for the different angles of approach and how they interact with the contours of the green.  Nor does he have any sense of the fine line between not getting far enough up the right side, and going too far and leaving yourself in the rough up top, with a bad line to the green past the right bunker and right into the back bunker.

So, therefore, he rates the hole as not as good as a hole on one of his favorite courses, that he knows 100x better.

Raters miss a lot, but they usually won't admit it.

As to this hole, I like it a lot, but I think John underrates the Ballyneal hole as well.  Difficult to compare a good short 4 and a good par 5, as with the respective first holes, but I don't see giving both 1 AND 4 to Dismal over Ballyneal.  In fact, if you compared the first of each course to the fourth hole of the other, we would probably just have a bunch of 10-10 even rounds to start with.

I'm having fun sharing my thoughts, and using the golf holes to state some of my favorite principles adopted over the years.  I'm noticing my own biases as well, striving for a dispassionate analysis.  Believe me, I'm trying hard to sound smart about this!

In my defense, I learned something about DR #4 that few learn, that an awful (right-handed) slice or push is accommodated by the design.  The architecture accommodated that junk.  After multiple reports that the fourth at Dismal River is an outstanding short par 4, I will stand by my 10-9 win for Ballyneal.  Will Tom D. follow the decisive 10-9 win for first holes with seventeen ties?

--  How many times do I have to play Dismal River's 4th hole before I understand how complex and interesting it is?  It probably took me 25 plays before I liked Ballyneal 12th hole more than the 7th hole.  The permutations of where the drive ends up, together with the various hole locations, makes the second shot fun and exciting every time.  

--  Whether or not there are shades of perfect on the tee shot, I look at Jimmy Muratt's picture of the tee shot, and knowing that it is 380 yards, usually downwind, I'm going to hit 5-wood (or drill low driver into the wind) at least the first 5-7 times to see what happens.  I'm pretty sure I saw the second little bunker when I played, which helped me decide 5-wood versus driver.  I'm playing to my strength, trying to get wedge in my hands.

--  While exercising today, I tried to think whether there were any of Tom's short (but not drivable for me) par-4s I've played that I would rate about Ballyneal's 4th hole.  Maybe Ballyneal's 12th hole, and maybe Pacific Dunes 16th hole.  How many of these 330-380 yard holes turn right?

--  Eric Smith's picture on the 4th green sure makes it look like the farther right one approaches the green, the better, regardless of hole location.

--  As for underrating Ballyneal's 4th hole, I'm concerned about being too long-winded.  I have trouble picking favorites at Ballyneal.   The 3rd hole is my least favorite, the others are sort of a tie.  If pressed, the 4th hole is in the middle somewhere.

Great to have Bruce Wellmon and Mac Plumart share their anecdotes.  Mac, we see eye-to-eye on everything!  So far I appear to be the appointed Ballyneal representative.  I hope those familiar with the new course continue to contribute.

Has anybody here made a birdie at the 4th hole at Dismal River?  How did you do it?

[Tom_Doak]

--  As for underrating Ballyneal's 4th hole, I'm concerned about being too long-winded.  I have trouble picking favorites at Ballyneal.   The 3rd hole is my least favorite, the others are sort of a tie.  If pressed, the 4th hole is in the middle somewhere.

I meant John Kavanaugh had underrated the hole.  But maybe you did, too.  I would put the 4th in the top half of my favorites at Ballyneal.

[John Kavanaugh]

Has anybody here made a birdie at the 4th hole at Dismal River?  How did you do it?

This smells like a set up. I birdied the hole in the shoot out on my way to win a little event commonly known as The 5th Major. I seem to recall hitting a drive just left of the pot bunker. A smooth 9 iron to 18 inches and a tappity tap tap in the jar on my way to the next hole. Can I get a witness?  Being the first hole of a 5 team shoot out we were playing a 10 some with 20 or so onlookers. Not since an ancient Buffalo kill has such joy ringed through those hills.

Hey, you asked.

[Eric Smith]

Has anybody here made a birdie at the 4th hole at Dismal River?  How did you do it?

This smells like a set up. I birdied the hole in the shoot out on my way to win a little event commonly known as The 5th Major. I seem to recall hitting a drive just left of the pot bunker. A smooth 9 iron to 18 inches and a tappity tap tap in the jar on my way to the next hole. Can I get a witness?  Being the first hole of a 5 team shoot out we were playing a 10 some with 20 or so onlookers. Not since an ancient Buffalo kill has such joy ringed through those hills.

Hey, you asked.

Here you are walking to mark your ball..



For those playing at home: Jaka is the guy in the middle of the green wearing a green shirt and derby cap.

[John Kirk]

Sweet.

This picture of the green has far more detail, and it no longer looks clear that far right makes the best angle for every hole location.

JK is so money.  Did somebody buy you a beer?

[John Kavanaugh]

Sweet.

This picture of the green has far more detail, and it no longer looks clear that far right makes the best angle for every hole location.

JK is so money.  Did somebody buy you a beer?

No beer but prize money was distributed 40% of which was donated to the HHH charity. Dismal and Ballyneal are tied in more ways than most will ever know. The shootout was a four hole playoff. My partner was money sinking a birdie on the 7th for the final victory. We have video of that event which, spoiler alert, may make an appearance later in the thread.

[Mac Plumart]

Has anybody here made a birdie at the 4th hole at Dismal River?  How did you do it?

Yes.  I've carded one birdie on this hole.  It was stunning, frankly.

[Note, I play the middle tees]

The second time I played the hole, I crushed a drive (crushed in my limited golfing ability sense, not a Dustin Johnson crush) and just barely got over the center line bunker then I rolled a bit left.  Blind into the green.  One of the next times around I hit a good drive again, but this time I landed in the bunker.  This left my scratching me head wondering if trying to carry that bunker was the play for me.

Then one of the next few times I played it, I had a tail wind; pretty stout one.  I decided to try this bunker carry drive again.  I crushed it and thought I'd carried the bunker by just a smidge.  But I was WAY over the bunker and must have rolled way down the fairway, 'cause there I was...small little chip or pitch into the green.  I chipped it up and sank about a 6 footer for bird.

The wind direction makes a big difference on this course.  Play accordingly.  

[Bill_McBride]

I find these head to head matches that have short par 4s facing off against par 5s to be somewhat ludicrous.  There must be a better way!

[Eric Smith]

Edit: posted to Red 5 discussion

[Brandon Urban]

The 4th at Dismal Red is my second favorite on the front 8 only behind the 6th.

I made two birdies there during my HHH including one on the 119th hole of the day. I love the fact that you can push a ball way right and get to hit it again... but you are faced with this view.


Unlike John, I won't talk about my escapades on this hole during the 5th Major playoff...

Here are a couple of my favorites of the 4th at Ballyneal. I don't think I would ever tire of seeing the ball fly off of the elevated tee here.