Ballyneal gets bent

[David Bartman]

Jim:

I am really excited for Ballyneal.  With Dismal and Sand Hills having bentgrass greens, I am sure Ballyneal will get it right.   Going to make a crazy fun course even more fun.

One question - will the maintenance crew have to do some modest re-shaping of some greens to limit the slope angles.  For instance, #12 with bent greens seems scary!  Also, will balls coming off the slope on #7 stay on the green?

 

Changing to bent doesn't mean that the green speeds necessarily need to increase.  However, if they plan on increasing the speeds of the greens those slopes , in my opinion, ought to be reshaped appropriately. 

[Jim Colton]

They are not going to get into an arms race on green speeds. Nobody wants that, nor is anybody talking softening the contours.  The green speeds will be appropriate for the slopes on the green, just more consistently at that right level for more of the summer than before.

I know from talking to Dave Hensley that they understand the key to maintaining the firm and fast fescue in the green surrounds, and I have all the confidence in the world that the maintenance staff will manage that balance diligently.

[Tom_Doak]

I also have complete confidence that Dave Hensley knows what he's doing much better than anyone who has posted on this thread, and I'm not one bit concerned that they're going to make the greens too fast that we need to reshape them.  [If anyone was going to reshape those greens, it would be me, or it would be over my dead body.]  

Dave is just responding to a level of patchy bentgrass intrusion that was getting impossible to fight.  And, he has verified privately that fescue in 100+ degree heat does just fine at fairway height, but struggles at green height.

In general, threads about agronomy on this board are beyond pointless.  Y'all should stick to discussing things you know a little about, like architecture, instead of venturing onto topics where you really have no basis for comment.  My money is on the professionals in that end of the business.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Hey,
   I may have missed it, but how is this going to be done? Are the greens going to be sprayed with an herbicide and then replanted? When will the work be scheduled? What 's the time table? What bents are being used?
  I would hope no reshaping of those great greans would be needed.

[Tom_Doak]

They will just slit-seed more bentgrass in with the fescue.  It will take over in no time.  I would guess they've already done it, you pretty much have to plant the grass by the last week of August in the sand hills to guarantee germination.  Maybe a week or two later at Ballyneal.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, with respect, I can't agree with the notion that "y'all should stick with what you know" or not engage in technical discussions about things like turf grass science and maintenance.  If that were the standard, we would basically most of us be relegated to not speaking or engaging in any conversation.  When these sort of threads are approached with turf professionals chiming in among non-professionals, learning can take place.  Learning new things is always a good idea, and only adds to the inter-relationships we have in our own communities and clubs when we might get involved with a discussion taking place among other 'non-professionals' where we just might be able to bring a new point of interest or fact to that other discussion, about something we learned here in a discussion on GCA.  I think if our minds are open, not shy to ask a question about something technical, and learn rather than be intimidated with a notions that the subject is off-limits because we are not professionals, then that hurts advancement of knowledge as a whole.  

You can apply the doctrine of not engaging in conversations on subject that you don't have professional standing to just about anything, and then we'd all just be eating our crayons, and scribbling.  

Folks here can certainly glean new information from Mr. Wigget, Mahaffey, and others, that can be useful contributions in the future in other settings.  

[Jim Colton]

Charlie,

 The process had already started by the time you were out there a few weeks ago.

 I will be there tomorrow and can report more.

 Again, they will not be changing the green contours.  

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, with respect, I can't agree with the notion that "y'all should stick with what you know" or not engage in technical discussions about things like turf grass science and maintenance.  If that were the standard, we would basically most of us be relegated to not speaking or engaging in any conversation.  

Yes, that was my idea.

When these sort of threads are approached with turf professionals chiming in among non-professionals, learning can take place.  Learning new things is always a good idea, and only adds to the inter-relationships we have in our own communities and clubs when we might get involved with a discussion taking place among other 'non-professionals' where we just might be able to bring a new point of interest or fact to that other discussion, about something we learned here in a discussion on GCA.  I think if our minds are open, not shy to ask a question about something technical, and learn rather than be intimidated with a notions that the subject is off-limits because we are not professionals, then that hurts advancement of knowledge as a whole.  

Folks here can certainly glean new information from Mr. Wigget, Mahaffey, and others, that can be useful contributions in the future in other settings.  

The problem is that very few professionals have commented here, and most of them have done so only to try and tamp down the misinformation that comes out.  Behind the scenes, I've heard from three different turf professionals in the region, each lamenting that the discussion is unhelpful.  Real learning in this field requires time on the ground and living with the conditions of the area.  Instead, we've got a bunch of people talking who have visited the area for a few days at a time, and who, combined, don't know as much about turf as any decent assistant superintendent.  We shout down people on this forum who comment on courses they've only seen in pictures; commenting on the MAINTENANCE of those courses is really much more complicated.

If you really want to learn something about turf out there, I know a bunch of guys who would love to put a volunteer to work.  They might even come up with some special assignments for you, RJ.  

[JESII]

Tom,

How about an example of one piece of misinformation?

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, just to continue a bit with my premise that people should feel welcome to engage, ask questions of the professionals in the field of turf management, and be willing to learn, and not be intimidated to state what they "think they know", is that most all the folks here on this forum have decent educations and are perfectly able to read all the same turf science publications and books and google up plenty of technical information, the same access all turf professionals have.  We all can read and understand the 'academic side' of various turf subject matter.  

But, the real world turf pros, particularly like the ones that come on GCA.com and add their knowledge, most all had both pre-education laboring jobs actually maintaining courses as students etc, and most have had multiple post education assistant and head super jobs, many changing climatic zones and warm to cool season species etc.  Each of them most likely will say that the academic book learning side(turf school) only was a sound basis for the on-the-ground real world experiences and techniques they learned after their formal educations were over.  So, how do they share and advance their own accumulated knowledge among themselves?  They discuss, debate, go to conventions, provide continuing education, and share tips.  

And, for GCA.com posters, I think it is just as valid for those so inclined, to read what they can, and discuss, and not be afraid to join in.  And, I really think it is a great indication of the level of professionalism of a real world practitioner to have patience to listen to people interested to engage on the topic; determine what basis of understanding a particular person may have, and correct or build upon that basis where they exhibit a lack of understanding, so that the entire field and body of knowledge is advanced.  More people understanding the challenges and issues that a turf professional faces and what is needed to promote good turf is better than less people understanding.  

[SL_Solow]

RJ;  I hope this doesn't make me a "suck up" but I am largely with Tom on this one.  I have been a greens chair, assistant chair, or club President supervising a renovation since 1995  and I cochair the Chicago District's committee on turf. I have been involved in a renovation, installation of XGD, gassed and regrassed greens, dredged ponds and rebuilt bunkers along with day to day maintenance.  Having said that, the main thing I have learned is that I know a fair amount for a layman, I can ask good questions, and I know nothing compared to the professionals who are some of my favorite people in the business.  If all we were doing was expressing our preferences regarding playing conditions, maintenance meld and the interaction with architecture while asking the professionals how to achieve these goals, then that would be terrific.  But too often many here express opinions about how and what should be done without any real understanding of how these things work.  I love to learn from friends in our district and the experts on this site like Don Mahaffey and his younger counterpart at Pine Tree.  But I am troubled when those of us who are uninformed lob in opinions.  Unlike architecture, which is largely a matter of taste, growing turf is a combination of art and science.  Similarly, we can tell the architects what we like about a course but almost none of us could actually build one and I suspect not many more could take a raw site and route one.  So I prefer to ask questions in technical areas and learn from the experts.  That helps me do a better job in evaluating what I experience and even enjoy a course when I play.

[JESII]

Shelly,

I'm certain there are examples elsewhere on GCA in which amateurs sound off on maintenance issues but this thread isn't one of them. Take a look...this is people hearing about a sensitive subject and either wishing good luck or asking about the process and potential impact.

[RJ_Daley]

Shel, I can agree with your line of thought.  Yet, in point of fact, you have had these various positions of greens chair, club Pres, etc., and most certainly were in a decision making process.  What you learned in your many meetings that were most likely led or co-conducted with the turf professionals helping guide discussion and considerations is a wealth of knowledge to others.  Combine your ability to be able to do your own research exploring the voluminous academic research papers and books on the wide array of subject encompassing turf grass science and maintenance, is not a process to be held to yourself, not shared to the ever growing extent of what you have learned to this point.  Then, when you take that ever-growing body of knowledge you continue to acquire and share and discuss this with competent real world professionals, good information will out.  It should be a shared collegial manner among other people that serve their golf clubs and committees, and I really don't think anybody so interested should feel like they can't participate because they don't go out and seed turf, spray chems, spread fert, mow, scout pests, etc.  

And let's face it.  Supers, even highly academically credentialed supers, can screw up!  They are also subject to all the same character failures as any other professional in terms of wrong doing, grifting, skimming, or whatever you can think of that is contrary to honesty or advancing the professionalism of the field.  Sometimes, it is a good thing that people on governance committees take stronger interest than the average member's interest to learn about these subjects, because they may have to make a decision on a matter where the club's interests are being usurped or undermined by a wrongly motivated 'professional' that may just be playing the "you don't know what you are talking about" card to continue not performing at the best standards and practices.  

But, I am in accord with the notion of a lay person, big mouth, or know-it-all, who can't really demonstrate serious prior learning or understanding on a subject, be restrained from leading a wrongful set of assumptions or demands of a professional turf or other professional, just on whim or capricious behavior.  

So, as Jim states above, for purpose of this particular thread, please have the pros point out what they think are the misguided statements, and let's learn.  

And, how many participants on GCA.com are really that motivated on this subject of fescue and bent encroachment, conversion of species and selection of cultivars to sustain further discussion, anyway?    But for those that are, please continue.

[Grant Saunders]

RJ

I feel that most superintendents worth their salt are highly unlikely to chime in on a maintenance thread with anything other than general thoughts.

Most guys who have been in this business for a long time understand that all the books and theory out there aren’t really worth much in the face of actual experience in the field. The variations from site to site are enormous even if geographically the distance is small. Coupled with differing budgets and expectations, it is damn near impossible to judge a superintendents ability based on the conditions of a course the day you played it.

Most supers form their philosophies over time based on their own experiences.  These become the basis for their management style and no 2 guys will do things 100% the same. These same guys understand that weighing in with comments on a situation where you aren’t fully apprised of all the information is a dangerous game to play. Particularly throwing these opinions out there on a public chat forum (which is about architecture not agronomy) can have some adverse effects. People (even well read amateur/hobbyists) can misinterpret what they read or take ideas into a situation where they were never intended to be applied.

If you really want to learn something about turf out there, I know a bunch of guys who would love to put a volunteer to work.  They might even come up with some special assignments for you, RJ.  

I would strongly second this suggestion to anyone who is genuine about wanting to explore the art of turf management

[DMoriarty]

Again, they will not be changing the green contours.

For the sake of the course and club, I sure hope you are correct about this Jim.  But what concerns me is that with the change in grass the management will face increased criticism about green speed.   Already in this thread and the other we have had a series thinly veiled "I told you so" posts from the direction of one of the neighboring competitors, and then we have this suggestion that the contours ought to be softened if the green speeds tick up.

Will changing the grass for agronomic reasons silence the passive-aggressive shots about the speed of the greens from the competition?  It sure doesn't look like it. Already we have Mr. Johnston chiming in with, "That said, if you don't want faster, why go to bent?"

It'd be nice to dismiss his comment as one of the unhelpful comments about agronomy to which TD was referring.  But, unfortunately, I doubt that this will be the last of such comments.  

At Ballyneal TD built greens with brilliant and bold contours, and in so doing he was bucking the well worn modern trend of sacrificing green character at the holy alter of the stimpmeter.  But the fantastic greens and windy conditions necessitate slower speeds, and those slower speeds make Ballyneal an easy target for naysayers looking for a competitive advantage. It may be a cheap shot, but is a pretty easy cheap shot to make stick, and it goes a long ways with a certain segment of the potential customer base who buy into the nonsense about how faster greens equal better greens.

Anyway, I do hope club has the wherewithal to ignore the incessant chirping and unsolicited advice from the competition.

[Chris Johnston]

Again, they will not be changing the green contours.

For the sake of the course and club, I sure hope you are correct about this Jim.  But what concerns me is that with the change in grass the management will face increased criticism about green speed.   Already in this thread and the other we have had a series thinly veiled "I told you so" posts from the direction of one of the neighboring competitors, and then we have this suggestion that the contours ought to be softened if the green speeds tick up.

Will changing the grass for agronomic reasons silence the passive-aggressive shots about the speed of the greens from the competition?  It sure doesn't look like it. Already we have Mr. Johnston chiming in with, "That said, if you don't want faster, why go to bent?"

It'd be nice to dismiss his comment as one of the unhelpful comments about agronomy to which TD was referring.  But, unfortunately, I doubt that this will be the last of such comments.  

At Ballyneal TD built greens with brilliant and bold contours, and in so doing he was bucking the well worn modern trend of sacrificing green character at the holy alter of the stimpmeter.  But the fantastic greens and windy conditions necessitate slower speeds, and those slower speeds make Ballyneal an easy target for naysayers looking for a competitive advantage. It may be a cheap shot, but is a pretty easy cheap shot to make stick, and it goes a long ways with a certain segment of the potential customer base who buy into the nonsense about how faster greens equal better greens.

Anyway, I do hope club has the wherewithal to ignore the incessant chirping and unsolicited advice from the competition.

Wow, very pithy.  

The contributions made in this thread have no veiled intent whatever, this post is way off the mark, and is an great example of reading what wasn't written.  In a small thinking world, you would be shocked to know both Matt Payne and Dave Hensley are good friends, and you may even more shocked to know we have (dare I say) collaborated quite a bit on this subject for more than a year.  Dave and Matt have been a big help for us too.  Do you really think they just woke up one day and had an epiphany?  Professionals work with professionals, decisions are best made with the best information possible and, sometimes, some of that information is growing nearby.  For those looking for conflict, I suppose it's good fodder.

The changeover is no big deal and I never said it was.  We know better than most (and certainly you) the agronomic struggles that all of the course have out here, including us.  This entire matter has been completely twisted, and that does Ballyneal a great disservice.  I can't and won't speak for Ballyneal but believe the issue at hand isn't green speeds, or slopes...it's consistent surfaces that can be maintained without a nervous breakdown due to a very unique environment.  There is nothing wrong with Ballyneal's greens, other than they are a pain in the fanny (as mentioned due to heat and confirmed by the designer) and that's not really new news to anyone.  Oftentimes, change is good and the folks who made decision should be commended and supported.  99% of the people who play it probably wouldn't know bentgrass from fescue, and the other 1% who do know won't care if its good.  And it will be.

I can tell you this, my very cynical friend, we'll take all the advice we can get from others "on the field" out here, a do so quite often.  It's folks like you and posts like this that make it challenging.  There is no titanic struggle between the two clubs, and there is a lot of mutual support and friendship.  The way it should be, unless you are a boobird in the upper deck.

"Already we have Mr. Johnston chiming in with, "That said, if you don't want faster, why go to bent?"   If you bother to read, this was in response to Tom's statement that fescue is fine.  As confirmed by many more astute then me, the problem isn't bent or fescue, it's the aggressive natural tendencies of bent with fescue.  Bent greens bring many of their own challenges (more than fescue by the way) and the normal reward is faster surfaces.  You probably don't know, and I don't want to insult you like you did me, but bentgrass is a royal pain in the fanny too and, yes, most choose it for speed.  Thus, my "chiming" quite was relevant to the topic at hand.

Good Golly, Miss Molly!  Many thanks for the undeserved swipe.  

[RJ_Daley]

Thanks Chris for adding valuable information, the benefit of explaining your on-the-ground facility manager and ultimately decision maker process, observations about the subject at hand, and collegiality that you have always presented among the golf facilities out there.  I fail to see any of the people on the first pages of this thread doing anything more than seek to learn, and those with experience and knowledge seeking to explain the issues from their perspectives.  What is wrong with that!  
 
I think some folks are getting too habituated to turn inquiry and discussion, into controversy and conflict.  What is it with some people?  Are they so used to manufactured controversy from some of these cable news operations to stir up otherwise non-issues to garner more viewers that they can't hold conversation without inserting or ascribing motives and posturing where it isn't really relevant?  

No apologies from this quarter for participating in this discussion and offering what I 'think' I have learned and seeking confirmation or correction about the accuracy of what I've contributed.  My ears are open to what our turf managers offer, and I have enough confidence or chutzpah to question things that are said with offering something contrary that I may have come across if that information differs.  But, at least I am willing to offer citations or give a source as to what drives my ideas, if asked to explain.  What is wrong with that?  

[DMoriarty]

Chris Johnston,  

I don't know Matt Payne and Dave Hensley, and don't recall them ever posting here.  My post had NOTHING to do with them.  Nice attempt at distracting from the obvious, though.

Speaking of the obvious, I reread my post and stand by it.  If anything I was too kind. You've been taking passive-aggressive swipes at BN for years here and elsewhere, and this thread is no different.  Every time Ballyneal comes up you shamelessly insert yourself and DR into the middle of the conversation, just as you did here. Hell, you go out of your way to take shots a the place whether it comes up or not.  See your post on the "Rank my Courses" thread for a typical example of your usual passive-aggressive (for lack of a better term) approach toward BN:

"Ballyneal.  Instant classic.  Unique site but probably poor initial turf decisions, fits the land seamlesly but less thematic variety, epic greens with inhibiting grass mix decisions, "bumps" in every fairway, Easy to walk a plus, but limiting to many in a hot place, very pleasantly understated.  Unique and very enjoyable."  

About every apparent compliment is offset by a dig.  Can anyone imagine Dick Youngscap or Mike Kieser taking such petty, thinly veiled swipes at contemporary courses on a publicly accessible website?

As for the rest of your post . . . get bent.

[Chris Johnston]

Chris Johnston,  

I don't know Matt Payne and Dave Hensley, and don't recall them ever posting here.  My post had NOTHING to do with them.  Nice attempt at distracting from the obvious, though.

Speaking of the obvious, I reread my post and stand by it.  If anything I was too kind. You've been taking passive-aggressive swipes at BN for years here and elsewhere, and this thread is no different.  Every time Ballyneal comes up you shamelessly insert yourself and DR into the middle of the conversation, just as you did here. Hell, you go out of your way to take shots a the place whether it comes up or not.  See your post on the "Rank my Courses" thread for a typical example of your usual passive-aggressive (for lack of a better term) approach toward BN:

"Ballyneal.  Instant classic.  Unique site but probably poor initial turf decisions, fits the land seamlesly but less thematic variety, epic greens with inhibiting grass mix decisions, "bumps" in every fairway, Easy to walk a plus, but limiting to many in a hot place, very pleasantly understated.  Unique and very enjoyable."  

About every apparent compliment is offset by a dig.  Can anyone imagine Dick Youngscap or Mike Kieser taking such petty, thinly veiled swipes at contemporary courses on a publicly accessible website?

As for the rest of your post . . . get bent.

[Charlie Gallagher]

As an enthusiast who had the privilege to play Ballyneal and see its late summer condition, it is obvious that the superintendent and his crew know what they are doing in terms of conditioning the course to keep it alive and bring out its intended firm character. I'm looking forward to visiting it again after the conversion takes hold and seeing if the course plays differently. If it stays firm, I don't think the grass change is going to make a huge difference. The greens there tend to be pretty good size and there should be plenty of playable hole locations on each green. They certainly don't need to be 13 to provide enjoyment,  interest, and a test of skill. If the grass can deeply root and survive in the arid climate of eastern CO, I'm expecting the course will be every bit as good as it was with the fescue.

[Keith OHalloran]

DMoriarty,
You seem to put Chris in an impossible spot. While you are right that other owners do not participate here, I also think that GCA is better off for having Chris and his experience. That being said, once he participates, he has as much right as anyone to give his opinions. Tom Doak asked for rationale as to why people  rank his courses where they do. I read Chris' post as a measured response to that request. I don't think it is fair to ask Chris to stop  participation because he is an owner.
I feel the same way for Tom Doak as an architect.
And No, I am not a member of Chris' club.

[jeffwarne]

DMoriarty,
You seem to put Chris in an impossible spot. While you are right that other owners do not participate here, I also think that GCA is better off for having Chris and his experience. That being said, once he participates, he has as much right as anyone to give his opinions. Tom Doak asked for rationale as to why people  rank his courses where they do. I read Chris' post as a measured response to that request. I don't think it is fair to ask Chris to stop  participation because he is an owner.
I feel the same way for Tom Doak as an architect.
And No, I am not a member of Chris' club.

That and he gave turf and/or grassing choices commentary on EVERY TD course he ranked, not just Ballyneal.

[Chris Johnston]

As for the getting bent comment...I think that kind of stuff pretty well defines the person who posted it any rebuttal is unnecessary.  Funny thing is, we get bent everyday, on the greens of both courses!    Happy to see Ballyneal is "getting bent" too.  

I'm happy to discuss bentgrass at Ballyneal, the topic of the thread by the way, and believe it a great move given the challenges.  I imagine the goal is a consistent putting surface that has the least amount of competing grasses that impact consistency.  For those unaware but interested, bent is no picnic and requires more than its share of attention out here too.  Maybe even more.  As shared by others more knowledgeable, it's the more aggressive grass when compared to fescue.  Simply, all bent means you can give all of your attention to it, rather than serving multiple masters.  Also agree it was going to take over anyway.

The issue (a small one too) was competing grasses that, like Mr. Moriarity, didn't play well and was painful and costly to babysit.  I've learned here by experts that either would be "good" on its own, but bent is by far the more agressive of the two and that was the puzzle to solve...or to assist nature in by accelerating.  Once bent is present, it takes over.  In the real world, it isn't fun to spend time and resources trying to get an existing strain not to grow.  Similar in concept to the bent/poa challenges.

Despite perceptions, bent doesn't have to be fast.  I'm pretty certain that increased speed is not the goal driving the change.  Consistency is.

On the topic of my posts, those who know me know I really don't "veil" much anything.  I posted accompanying comments on Tom's thread to give some basis to my opinion...putting my opinions out there  Feel free to disagree.  I doubt very much that Mr. Youngscap or Mr. Keiser want to do the same with a few negative people who ruin good topics.  That makes them far more wise than me.  

No sane person can argue that Ballyneal is anything but an instant classic and one of the best's, very best.  It takes real starch to make the contemplated change, and they will be even better for it.  That said, I didn't make or drive the change and the change was obviously contempleted to address an area of improvement.   In my opinion, well played.  I believe the discussion of the change is of interest to many on this site and others in the industry.  My friend, Jim Colton, began the thread and the follow-on discussion (aside from Mr. Moriarity) has been quite interesting.  I felt I could contribute, add, and chose to do so as we already have bentgrass greens in a similar climate.  Very good bent greens, to boot.

We don't compete with Ballyneal, we admire and respect them, and honestly count many there as friends.  I think they know that, or hope they do.  For those who have never made the journey, Ballyneal and Dismal River are 3+ hours apart, located on completely different sites, in two different states.  What we do share (behind the veil) are challenges, in climate and turfgrass management.  Both are quite special for what they are and "the either/or" crowd really is on a fools errand.  I suppose we are tied together to some, but we are well aware that if they succeed=we succeed and vice versa.  It isn't a zero sum proposition.

Now, back to the topic at hand, and apologies to all for the hijacking of solid, good and useful information.

[DMoriarty]

My "get bent" comment was simply a play on the subject line and topic of the thread.

DMoriarty,
You seem to put Chris in an impossible spot. While you are right that other owners do not participate here, I also think that GCA is better off for having Chris and his experience. That being said, once he participates, he has as much right as anyone to give his opinions. Tom Doak asked for rationale as to why people  rank his courses where they do. I read Chris' post as a measured response to that request. I don't think it is fair to ask Chris to stop  participation because he is an owner.
I feel the same way for Tom Doak as an architect.
And No, I am not a member of Chris' club.

With all respect, Keith, if Mr. Johnston is in "an impossible spot" it is his own doing.  He is the one who has long been acting as head cheerleader/shill for all things Dismal in these threads and elsewhere, and he is the one taking backhanded swipes at a contemporary, competing course here and in the other thread, and he is the one who (incredibly) has positioned himself spokesperson for what is ongoing with the turf at Ballyneal.  

While he may be "happy to discuss bentgrass at Ballyneal," he is not at Ballyneal and is certainly no expert on the goings-on at Ballyneal, and from what I can decipher some of what he is saying may not be wholly accurate.  While some agronomy experts/professionals have chimed in on this thread, Chris Johnston isn't one of them.  

Yes of course he he is entitled to his opinion.  But I am entitled to my opinion as well, and in my opinion his constant shilling is low class, and his injecting himself into matters relating Ballyneal is also low class. 

_____________________________________________________
Jeff Warne,  I don't think your characterization is accurate, but had he been hypercritical of TD's other courses I'd have found that offensive as well.  

Here is one of the posts from the other thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56859.msg1322595.html#msg1322595  

Given C.J.'s relationship with DR, and given the proximity of DR and BN, their similar vintage, and their overlapping target market, I find his "commentary" to be in especially bad taste.  That's my opinion.
_______________________________________________________

While probably now lost in Chris Johnston's endless protestations about what a good guy he is and how much he really loves Ballyneal, my point about Ballyneal in my initial post remains.   The course possesses a tremendous set greens, and I'd hate to see that change.

[Chris Johnston]

"The course possesses a tremendous set greens, and I'd hate to see that change."  Ahh, but Mr. Moriarity, the greens are indeed changing and I have nothing whatsoever to do with that, although I personally think it's a good move at a great place.  I have no specific knowledge, but I doubt Ballyneal plans to change anything but the turfgrass to create consistency.  If you don't like any change, take it up with them.  If Dave or Matt want to jump in, that would be terrific.  You are correct, I don't speak for them and you certainly don't speak for me.

Next time you want to tell someone to "get bent" (an extremely inflammatory term) man up enough to say it directly and in person.  Maybe the recipient will get the joke better in person, but I rather doubt it.  Try it at the shopping Mall next time you visit.

It ok with me that you don't like me, since we have never met.  Yet you have contributed nothing positive to the thread about greens turfgrass or otherwise, while some here have acknowledged an appreciation. It's great to be King, huh?

And (believe it or not) you are completely incorrect, I know more than most about turfgrass and live in a laboratory where tending to it is our lifeline.  I plant it, mow it, treat it, irrigate it, and grow it right alongside a great group of dedicated guys.  But, you wouldn't know that and I have never claimed to be an expert - lot's easier to besmirch and slime when you don't know, I suppose.  

Ballyneal is 3+ hours away from Dismal River, roughly the travel time from Boston to New York.  In an attempt to make you happy, please let me know where you think I may participate in your small minded world.  Prairie Dunes far enough for ya?  Texas?

If anyone here would like to discuss A1/A4 or dominant bentgrass in the Sandhills, I'd enjoy the give and take.  I promise not to name Ballyneal, for that is the problem Mr. Moralty seems to have.  If we refer to any courses, I'm happy to refer to same as "a", "b", "c" and so on.  That said, it is a fun and interesting topic for me.