Rank My Courses

[Bill Satterfield]

Pacific Dunes
Ballyneal
Sebonack
Rock Creek Cattle Co.
Dismal River (Red)
Old Macdonald
Streamsong (Blue)
Tumble Creek
Legends Resort (Heathland)
Atlantic City CC

[Alan Ritchie]

Of the three I have played.
Barnbougle dunes 9

Cape kidnappers 8
St. Andrews beach 6
Maybe add Tara iti next year if I'm lucky

[Charles Lund]

Barnbougle Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kidnappers
Old MacDonald
St. Andrews Beach
Tumble Creek
High Pointe

Charles Lund

[Jud_T]

For all the GCA access whores who sold their soul to play Augusta, Seminole, Chicago, Cypress, Garden City, the top 100 etc. (look in the mirror- you know who you are).   I've accomplished the ultimate:  I played a Doak course that Doak never played.  Bay of Dreams...It rocked....Suck it....

[Thomas Dai]

Like I imagine many others herein, and lurkers as well, I can't rank any of Tom's courses for the simple reason that I've never played any.......so I am distinctly envious of those of you who have! Keep telling us about them though because one day......

Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Barnbougle Dunes > St Andrews Beach > Renaissance

[Sean Walsh]

Mark,


I think St Andrews Beach takes the lead if your criteria places an emphasis on elevated tees. 


I agree that Barnbougle is the better course but I can't remember a more enjoyable 90+ shots round than yesterday

[Don Jordan]

Barnbougle
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
St Andrews Beach
Cape Kidnappers

They were all good to great in their own way and a credit to you. I am not an architect and played each as a single traveller, Old Mac the most fun even on 35mph winds and St Andrews Beach the best value for money being $150-$300 cheaper to play than the others. 

[Jason Way]

A new favorite on my list after this season's action:


Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Apache Stronghold
Old Macdonald
Lost Dunes
Streamsong Blue
CommonGround
The Rawls Course
Black Forest


In a category of its own were the 4 holes of dirt golf played in both directions on The Loop with Tom, John Kirk, Jim Colton, and Tom Dunne.  A lucky coincidence that Tom was gracious enough to let me tag along on that excursion.

[Mark Pearce]

I agree that Barnbougle is the better course but I can't remember a more enjoyable 90+ shots round than yesterday

It was great fun, wasn't it?  Which is a big part of what makes a great course.  I reckon I'd have had something like 28 or 29 points in a Stableford and I felt like I played pretty well.  I think that's part of the greatness of both BD and SAB, you play a lot of good "big" shots which aren't as hard as they look but leak oil around the greens, particularly if you are out of position.


One difference, I think, between BD and SAB is that at Barnie, it seems that there is a bonus for attacking hazards.  I spent Saturday hitting drives near to or over hazards, assuming there was a benefit to be had in doing so and finding that there wasn't.  18 was perhaps the perfect example.  I flew the right side trap, assuming there was a better angle to be had, or extra length to be found, only to discover that I had absolutely no shot to get near the pin.

[Tom_Doak]

One difference, I think, between BD and SAB is that at Barnie, it seems that there is a bonus for attacking hazards.  I spent Saturday hitting drives near to or over hazards, assuming there was a benefit to be had in doing so and finding that there wasn't.  18 was perhaps the perfect example.  I flew the right side trap, assuming there was a better angle to be had, or extra length to be found, only to discover that I had absolutely no shot to get near the pin.

Yes, the 18th at St. Andrews Beach is deceptive.  There IS an advantage for attacking a hazard, but the hazard you need to attack is the long-left-center bunker.  Going right is only a good line if you need every yard to get close to the green with your second - and for that length of player the carry over the inside right is more challenging.

[Dave Herrick]

Barnbougle
Old Macdonald
Pacific Dunes
St Andrews Beach
Cape Kidnappers

They were all good to great in their own way and a credit to you. I am not an architect and played each as a single traveller, Old Mac the most fun even on 35mph winds and St Andrews Beach the best value for money being $150-$300 cheaper to play than the others.

When I was at Barnbougle a few weeks ago the day rate was $140, roughly $50 in US dollars per round if one plays 36 holes.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You may have already commented on this but I am curious what you think of the wide range of rankings?  I think it is an excellent example of why it is so difficult to rank courses (though we all enjoy trying).  What be even more interesting is to hear the criteria each used to rank the way they did 

[Peter Pallotta]

One difference, I think, between BD and SAB is that at Barnie, it seems that there is a bonus for attacking hazards.  I spent Saturday hitting drives near to or over hazards, assuming there was a benefit to be had in doing so and finding that there wasn't.  18 was perhaps the perfect example.  I flew the right side trap, assuming there was a better angle to be had, or extra length to be found, only to discover that I had absolutely no shot to get near the pin.

Yes, the 18th at St. Andrews Beach is deceptive.  There IS an advantage for attacking a hazard, but the hazard you need to attack is the long-left-center bunker.  Going right is only a good line if you need every yard to get close to the green with your second - and for that length of player the carry over the inside right is more challenging.

Tom - why did you make that choice? What I mean is: why design, in this particular case, this particular kind of deception rather than the more usual/classic risk-reward formula that Mark had assumed was in play? Did the land dictate it, or the wind patterns, and/or was it in the service of variety?

[Mac Plumart]

Dismal Red...played it 20 times (just played in again last month...the grow in and maturation over the last few years is mind bottling)


Old MacDonald...played it 3 times(so much fun...love going over the ridge on 3)


Sebonack...played it twice (the most thrilling shots of any Doak I've ever played)


Rock Creek...played it 3 times (masterpiece...gorgeous and unique)


Pacific Dunes...played it 3 times (amazing...gets better each time...a little too tough for me when the wind is up...14 green in wind, ugh!)


Renaissance...only played it once (haven't seen the "new" holes)


Streamsong Blue...only played it once (fun)


Ballyneal...played it 5 times (I wish it wasn't walking only (as my hips struggle with that walk)))


Commonground...played it once (great affordable public golf)


Perhaps I've cherry picked the better Doak's, but there are all very good.

[Jerry Kluger]

Ballyneal - I have never had more fun on a course in the US than I have at Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes - great course, great views
Streamsong Blue - refreshing Florida golf
Dismal River Red - another course for a bunch of fun
Old MacDonald - was blessed to see much of the course with George Bahto
Stone Eagle - amazing result on a very difficult property
CommonGround - every public course operator should see what can be done on a flat piece of property without spending a fortune
Atlantic City - really nicely done restoration
Beech tree - sad to see it go as you got to see a Doak course for not a lot of money.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, the 18th at St. Andrews Beach is deceptive.  There IS an advantage for attacking a hazard, but the hazard you need to attack is the long-left-center bunker.  Going right is only a good line if you need every yard to get close to the green with your second - and for that length of player the carry over the inside right is more challenging.

Tom - why did you make that choice? What I mean is: why design, in this particular case, this particular kind of deception rather than the more usual/classic risk-reward formula that Mark had assumed was in play? Did the land dictate it, or the wind patterns, and/or was it in the service of variety?

Peter:


I guess the choice was dictated by what we were given.  The bunker on the right he refers to is a deep hollow that used to have a couple of overhanging moonah trees that were untouchable ... so, it had to be a hazard, even if it wasn't intended as the principal feature of the hole.  Meanwhile, the green sits at the end of a valley that is oriented out to the left side of the fairway; as Mark noted, it is very difficult to approach from the right, with a small bunker right front and nasty vegetation along the right flank, and nearly all the contours tilting away from the right side.  [The contours of that green are almost entirely natural.] 


I almost left the hole at that.  The bunker left-center was a last-minute addition on my part, but it defends the line that better golfers would ideally play, shunting them back to the right or making them play far away from the direct line to the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
You may have already commented on this but I am curious what you think of the wide range of rankings?  I think it is an excellent example of why it is so difficult to rank courses (though we all enjoy trying).  What be even more interesting is to hear the criteria each used to rank the way they did 

Mark:


It is interesting, isn't it?


I think the opinions in this poll are expressed more honestly than the general ranking process because there is less politics involved here.  All of the courses are mine, so nobody is going to get too bent out of shape for preferring one over another; and so you really how wide a range of opinion there can be between enthusiastic golfers.


By contrast, most of the magazine rankings now are governed by the results of previous rankings.  Raters fear getting too far over their skis and being thrown off the panel for disagreeing with the status quo, or for favoring one architect's work too much over another, outside of the established pecking order. 


The continual publishing of consensus results also lend more certainty to the process than it warrants.  For example, Streamsong Red always comes out slightly ahead of my Blue course in the rankings; but if you poll 100 golfers, you find that about 40-45% [if not more] favor the Blue course.  But you never get that impression when all you see is that the Red course is ranked ahead of the Blue.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tom,
You may have already commented on this but I am curious what you think of the wide range of rankings?  I think it is an excellent example of why it is so difficult to rank courses (though we all enjoy trying).  What be even more interesting is to hear the criteria each used to rank the way they did 

Mark:


It is interesting, isn't it?


I think the opinions in this poll are expressed more honestly than the general ranking process because there is less politics involved here.  All of the courses are mine, so nobody is going to get too bent out of shape for preferring one over another; and so you really how wide a range of opinion there can be between enthusiastic golfers.


By contrast, most of the magazine rankings now are governed by the results of previous rankings.  Raters fear getting too far over their skis and being thrown off the panel for disagreeing with the status quo, or for favoring one architect's work too much over another, outside of the established pecking order. 


The continual publishing of consensus results also lend more certainty to the process than it warrants.  For example, Streamsong Red always comes out slightly ahead of my Blue course in the rankings; but if you poll 100 golfers, you find that about 40-45% [if not more] favor the Blue course.  But you never get that impression when all you see is that the Red course is ranked ahead of the Blue.

Tom , not quite sure I get you point about the Blue course. If only 40-45% favor the Blue then wouldn't a majority favor the Red?

[Jim Franklin]

Tom,
You may have already commented on this but I am curious what you think of the wide range of rankings?  I think it is an excellent example of why it is so difficult to rank courses (though we all enjoy trying).  What be even more interesting is to hear the criteria each used to rank the way they did 

Mark:


It is interesting, isn't it?


I think the opinions in this poll are expressed more honestly than the general ranking process because there is less politics involved here.  All of the courses are mine, so nobody is going to get too bent out of shape for preferring one over another; and so you really how wide a range of opinion there can be between enthusiastic golfers.


By contrast, most of the magazine rankings now are governed by the results of previous rankings.  Raters fear getting too far over their skis and being thrown off the panel for disagreeing with the status quo, or for favoring one architect's work too much over another, outside of the established pecking order. 


The continual publishing of consensus results also lend more certainty to the process than it warrants.  For example, Streamsong Red always comes out slightly ahead of my Blue course in the rankings; but if you poll 100 golfers, you find that about 40-45% [if not more] favor the Blue course.  But you never get that impression when all you see is that the Red course is ranked ahead of the Blue.

Tom , not quite sure I get you point about the Blue course. If only 40-45% favor the Blue then wouldn't a majority favor the Red?

Not speaking for Tom, but I think he means that since the rankings have the Red ahead of the Blue, people will think that EVERYONE favors the Red over the Blue. Put me in the Blue camp by the way.

[Tom_Doak]

Not speaking for Tom, but I think he means that since the rankings have the Red ahead of the Blue, people will think that EVERYONE favors the Red over the Blue. Put me in the Blue camp by the way.

Yes, that's what I meant.  It's like being told that "all the polls" favor one side -- there is some outside pressure being exerted to agree with the "majority" instead of voting your own conscience.  And as we've seen recently, that can be counter-productive!

[jeffwarne]

Not speaking for Tom, but I think he means that since the rankings have the Red ahead of the Blue, people will think that EVERYONE favors the Red over the Blue. Put me in the Blue camp by the way.

Yes, that's what I meant.  It's like being told that "all the polls" favor one side -- there is some outside pressure being exerted to agree with the "majority" instead of voting your own conscience.  And as we've seen recently, that can be counter-productive!

Well I prefer the Blue as well.
Maybe we're afraid of backlash from the Red elite so we don't show up in the polls

[Bill_McBride]

Old Macdonald
Dismal River
Sebonack
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Renaissance
Streamsong
Saint Emilion
Beechtree
Heathland

You, sir, are a well traveled dude!

[Tom_Doak]

In the interest of shutting down this thread before it gets too political I have compiled the results of everyone who voted in 2016 who has seen five or more courses ... 21 votes in all.  It may not be "statistically significant" but here are the results:


Seven courses received first place votes:  Pacific Dunes (7), Ballyneal (3), Barnbougle (3), Tara Iti (3), Old Macdonald (2), Dismal River (2), and Rock Creek (1).


I have compiled the rankings based on the votes here.  If you voted on five courses, the #1 course got 100 points, #2 = 80, down to #5 = 20.  If you voted on twenty courses, #1 = 100, #2 = 95, #3 = 90, #20 = 5 pts.  Obviously, this is skewed a bit ... when somebody has played only my best courses and ranks Cape Kidnappers 5th out of 5, that hurts it more than it should ... but we shall let the chips fall where they may.  Results are listed below.


Analysis:  Other than the #1 course, which has only three votes so far, the top 5 are all extremely close together and there is really no consensus there at all.  Barnbougle had one very low vote (out of six) that dragged it down a bit, otherwise it might well have finished on top of the pile instead of 4th.  The southern hemisphere courses are especially interesting, with Cape Kidnappers [ranked as high as 40th in the world] 12th in this poll, and St. Andrews Beach just behind it ... I guess they suffer a bit because the only voters to see them have also seen Tara Iti, Barnbougle, and only a sampling of my best US courses.  Anyway, here's the raw data:




1.000     Tara Iti (300/3) - I sure as hell didn't expect that!
  .844     Pacific Dunes (1519/18)
  .830     Rock Creek (498/6)
  .822     Barnbougle Dunes (493/6)
  .821     Ballyneal (1395/17)


  .737     Dismal River (958/13)
  .732     Old Macdonald (1245/17)


  .627     Sebonack (627/10)
  .533     Stone Eagle (320/6)
  .520     Apache Stronghold (156/3)


  .493     Streamsong Blue (888/18)
  .450     Cape Kidnappers (270/6)
  .440     The Sheep Ranch (44/1)
  .418     Lost Dunes (209/5)
  .413     St. Andrews Beach (165/4)
  .412     Renaissance Club (247/6)


  .383     The Loop at Forest Dunes (115/3)
  .363     Stonewall Old (145/4)
  .335     Tumble Creek (134/4)
  .324     CommonGround (227/7)


  .262     Stonewall North (131/5)
  .250     Beechtree (175/7)
  .237     The Rawls Course (71/3)
  .220     St. Emilion (44/2)
  .213     High Pointe (64/3)


  .178     Riverfront (71/4)
  .170     Medinah One (17/1)
  .160     Atlantic City CC (32/2)
  .155     Legends Heathland (93/6)
  .155     Black Forest (31/2)
  .080     Charlotte Golf Links (8/1)

[Tim Martin]

In the interest of shutting down this thread before it gets too political I have compiled the results of everyone who voted in 2016 who has seen five or more courses ... 21 votes in all.  It may not be "statistically significant" but here are the results:


Seven courses received first place votes:  Pacific Dunes (7), Ballyneal (3), Barnbougle (3), Tara Iti (3), Old Macdonald (2), Dismal River (2), and Rock Creek (1).


I have compiled the rankings based on the votes here.  If you voted on five courses, the #1 course got 100 points, #2 = 80, down to #5 = 20.  If you voted on twenty courses, #1 = 100, #2 = 95, #3 = 90, #20 = 5 pts.  Obviously, this is skewed a bit ... when somebody has played only my best courses and ranks Cape Kidnappers 5th out of 5, that hurts it more than it should ... but we shall let the chips fall where they may.  Results are listed below.


Analysis:  Other than the #1 course, which has only three votes so far, the top 5 are all extremely close together and there is really no consensus there at all.  Barnbougle had one very low vote (out of six) that dragged it down a bit, otherwise it might well have finished on top of the pile instead of 4th.  The southern hemisphere courses are especially interesting, with Cape Kidnappers [ranked as high as 40th in the world] 12th in this poll, and St. Andrews Beach just behind it ... I guess they suffer a bit because the only voters to see them have also seen Tara Iti, Barnbougle, and only a sampling of my best US courses.  Anyway, here's the raw data:




1.000     Tara Iti (300/3) - I sure as hell didn't expect that!
  .844     Pacific Dunes (1519/18)
  .830     Rock Creek (498/6)
  .822     Barnbougle Dunes (493/6)
  .821     Ballyneal (1395/17)


  .737     Dismal River (958/13)
  .732     Old Macdonald (1245/17)


  .627     Sebonack (627/10)
  .533     Stone Eagle (320/6)
  .520     Apache Stronghold (156/3)


  .493     Streamsong Blue (888/18)
  .450     Cape Kidnappers (270/6)
  .440     The Sheep Ranch (44/1)
  .418     Lost Dunes (209/5)
  .413     St. Andrews Beach (165/4)
  .412     Renaissance Club (247/6)


  .383     The Loop at Forest Dunes (115/3)
  .363     Stonewall Old (145/4)
  .335     Tumble Creek (134/4)
  .324     CommonGround (227/7)


  .262     Stonewall North (131/5)
  .250     Beechtree (175/7)
  .237     The Rawls Course (71/3)
  .220     St. Emilion (44/2)
  .213     High Pointe (64/3)


  .178     Riverfront (71/4)
  .170     Medinah One (17/1)
  .160     Atlantic City CC (32/2)
  .155     Legends Heathland (93/6)
  .155     Black Forest (31/2)
  .080     Charlotte Golf Links (8/1)

Apparently you have too much free time on your hands.