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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #275 on: October 26, 2013, 07:32:20 AM »
1.  I'm calling your bluff.  Which parts of Old Mac are manufactured, and which aren't?  Which are the 3-4 holes where we moved the most dirt?  And what particular features are created?  [Don't try to go hole by hole, just pick a couple that you are sure of, and I'll tell you if you're right or wrong.]

I like the challenge! As I mentioned in a response to GJ earlier, I felt that the biggest issue was not the places where large contours had to be changed, but the minute ones which were done to adapt some of the templates and then having that clash with the rugged hazards (which may fall under the "A lot of people were going to have problems with using the templates too much or not enough category). So while, say, the ridge line had to be cut into for 7 and 8 tee (am I right on that?) the result is quite good and it's hard to discern if any dirt had to be moved. I would imagine it took quite a bit of dirt moving to put the 14th green where it is as well. 18 green would be my last guess for most dirt moved, as I recall the mounds on the right were manufactured to create the punchbowl (which, I may add, I thought was a great rendition of it.

But for features that stick out in my memory, either the front portion of the Redan was brought up or dirt raised for the back portion to soften the slope of the green, and the slope that leads to the "road" (in this case, short grass) on the road hole.


Well, you are one out of four.

The most earth moved was cutting down the 7th green and 8th tee.  (check)  But that was all done by cutting ... and all of the earth was hauled to #6, to build up the ground between Hell bunker and the green, and to build up the first landing area enough so you could see Hell bunker well.  Most of #6 was very low and very boring when we started.  Also, a couple of the mounds you are hitting over on #7 tee are natural, but a couple were created by Jim Urbina.

The next most earth moved was to cut down the crest of the fairway at #3, and create the upper landing area there.  Originally it was just a big up and over ridge crashing down to the bottom on the ocean side almost as fast as it does on the (undisturbed) inland side.

The third most earth moved was to create the Alps feature for the second shot on #16.  That whole mound is created ... and a lot of the remains of the gorse are buried underneath it.

The fourth most earth moved was filling up the bottom of #15 fairway from 125 to 200 yards back from the green.  We thought the hole was too severely uphill for the average player from 150 or 200 yards out, so we raised that whole area 4-6 feet.

#14 green took a bit of shaping, but no big fills from outside.  The right side of #18 is indeed all fill -- it was very flat in that area -- but that's not really much more fill than most architects put on every green site to build them up three feet.  We just stacked it all on the one edge.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 10:31:24 PM by Tom_Doak »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #276 on: November 07, 2013, 10:26:52 PM »
Connor,

Sounds like you saw a ton of awesome courses this summer and beforehand, but you seriously rate a putting green ahead of St Andrew's Beach?!

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #277 on: November 08, 2013, 03:00:49 AM »
Connor,

Sounds like you saw a ton of awesome courses this summer and beforehand, but you seriously rate a putting green ahead of St Andrew's Beach?!

It's so hard to judge because it is so different and it's not really fair comparing it to the two. But the Punchbowl is the best putting course I've ever seen and it's so much fun to play. There are also a ton of ways to play it. I wanted to put the Punchbowl in a place which showed just how good it is and it's hard to do that without looking like you're putting the other courses down in the process because it's a putting course.

As for the work on Old Mac, boy I never would have guessed that the Alps was all constructed. Apparently neither did many people on this board :D. I think the work on 15 is actually rather interesting because that's one of my favorite fairways out there and the shaping is superb. Hard to imagine that shot being any more uphill.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #278 on: November 08, 2013, 07:39:15 AM »
But at fhe end of the day, the result is that your #1 isn't a golf course and you put a practice putting green ahead of St Andrews Beach...

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #279 on: November 08, 2013, 07:50:53 AM »
I agree it is odd that a putting green can come above fully formed routings.  I have no doubt it was very difficult to create something like the punchbowl and that it would have required great skill to pull it off.  But can it really be compared to finding and building 18 greens, and then linking them together with interesting terrain?

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #280 on: November 08, 2013, 09:25:13 PM »
I agree it is odd that a putting green can come above fully formed routings.  I have no doubt it was very difficult to create something like the punchbowl and that it would have required great skill to pull it off.  But can it really be compared to finding and building 18 greens, and then linking them together with interesting terrain?

Probably not. But I did want to include it.

I do think the Sheep Ranch makes for an easier comparison. While it does lack finding specific routings over the terrain, each green had to be designed to be approached from all sorts of angles, and in that sense, the greens are far more complicated to design than on an 18 hole course and the vision to see potential holes on the site.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Ben Carey

Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #281 on: November 09, 2013, 12:17:21 AM »
Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Streamsong Blue
Old Mac
Common Ground

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #282 on: November 09, 2013, 05:07:08 AM »
Scott,

Have you played the Punchbowl?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #283 on: November 09, 2013, 06:13:55 AM »
Jud,

I have not. But I couldnt accept any putting green being ranked ahead of a golf course that sits within the best 10 in Australia.

It's really no different to ranking a driving range ahead of a quality golf course. The range at Pine Valley is incredible, but it's still a practice range.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 06:29:30 AM by Scott Warren »

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #284 on: November 10, 2013, 06:24:47 AM »
Jud,

I have not. But I couldnt accept any putting green being ranked ahead of a golf course that sits within the best 10 in Australia.

It's really no different to ranking a driving range ahead of a quality golf course. The range at Pine Valley is incredible, but it's still a practice range.

But there is a difference. On the punchbowl, I'm in a contest, matched up against my opponents, competing on a match play (usually) basis. An idea that has been championed on this site. I cannot do the same at the driving range, where the intention is to improve ones game. The two are very different in this respect, and why I rationalize putting the Punchbowl in while not putting any driving ranges.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 07:22:05 AM by Connor Dougherty »
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #285 on: November 10, 2013, 09:58:08 AM »
There's all sorts of contests ("matches") you could have against another golfer on a practice range - longest, straightest, nearest the hole, most consecutive balls on a target green, most consecutive balls on target fairway, hit the same green with drawn, faded and straight shots, etc.

I'm sure The Punchbowl is a fantastic facility. But you're saying that if it were built in Australia, it would be one of the 10 or so best "courses" in the country. A putting green...

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #286 on: November 10, 2013, 10:22:13 AM »
Connor

I play match play on the range all the time with my son.  "Skills challenge".  I haven't seen the punchbowl but have seen St. Andrews Beach.  You can hold any opinion you like but logic seems to be on Scott's side.

Bart


Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #287 on: November 11, 2013, 05:02:17 PM »
Connor

I play match play on the range all the time with my son.  "Skills challenge".  I haven't seen the punchbowl but have seen St. Andrews Beach.  You can hold any opinion you like but logic seems to be on Scott's side.

Bart

The problem with having contests on the range is they're entirely skills based. There is not a way in which a man can outsmart his opponent. Only physical play and physical attributes are of use in this circumstance (and maybe the mental strength to execute a shot under pressure).

Feel free to remove the Punchbowl from my list. Like I said, it's not meant to be a slight at St. Andrews Beach or any golf in Australia (which you seem to think it is) and maybe few people have the courage to put it in the 10 or so best "courses" in the country but I do. It's an absolute blast to play and a genius design.

I agree that it's a bit unconventional and I'll even admit that if there were more places like it St. Andrews Beach would probably be ahead of it.  But it's so rare and unique in its design and such a fascinating place to play that I'm itching to go back, even if it's just to play the putting course.

But for you, Scott, let me update my rankings.

Pac Dunes
Ballyneal
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Stonewall Old
St Andrews Beach
Old MacDonald
Stonewall North

We shall remove the two other options as they do not qualify under the rules of the rating system.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #288 on: November 11, 2013, 05:06:42 PM »
There are surely people smarter than I who would have the Himalayas as the 2nd best course in St. Andrews.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #289 on: November 25, 2013, 02:03:29 PM »
1. Rock Creek
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Old Macdonald
4. Ballyneal
5. Sebonack
6. Stone Eagle
7. Stonewall North
8. Lost Dunes
9. Stonewall Old
10. Beechtree
11. Legends Heathland

After playing Streamsong Blue, I would put it at #3 ahead of Old Macdonald. I don't have time for the complete analysis, but the green on #5 could be the best green I have played. So many options. And my new favorite closing hole.  Awesome day and easily the two best courses in Florida IMHO. Tell the owner he hit a homerun.
Mr Hurricane

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #290 on: November 25, 2013, 04:25:50 PM »
Jim, better than Seminole?

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #291 on: November 26, 2013, 08:28:13 AM »
Jim, better than Seminole?

If I had to choose between Seminole and Streamsong, I would play Streamsong. It is just so much different than typical Florida golf and better. Again, this is my opinion, but yes, I prefer Streamsong to Seminole.
Mr Hurricane

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #292 on: November 26, 2013, 01:04:41 PM »
Connor:
Would you pay more to play St. Andrews Beach or the Punchbowl? 

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #293 on: November 26, 2013, 02:52:43 PM »
I had an interesting discussion with a friend today and we realized a couple of things.  First, you will not have more fun playing golf than playing at Ballyneal.  It is fun and challenging but it won't beat you up if you're not at the top of your game but will certainly challenge you if you are playing your best.  One point that my friend made is that there is no need to keep score since there is no way to post your score which adds to the fun but also brings into question the whole idea of how the USGA determines one's handicap.  

The second issue which we discussed is how the following courses would be ranked if they all were built at the same time and opened at the same time: Ballyneal, Friar's Head, Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes.  I would suggest that there is no obvious first or last place finisher which certainly should be more than flattering to Tom Doak. There are other courses out there which could be included in the group but the point is that these 3 Doak courses are arguably right up there with what has been recognized as the best of the modern courses.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #294 on: November 26, 2013, 05:22:11 PM »
The second issue which we discussed is how the following courses would be ranked if they all were built at the same time and opened at the same time: Ballyneal, Friar's Head, Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes.  I would suggest that there is no obvious first or last place finisher which certainly should be more than flattering to Tom Doak. There are other courses out there which could be included in the group but the point is that these 3 Doak courses are arguably right up there with what has been recognized as the best of the modern courses.

Jerry:

Thanks for your comments on Ballyneal, however, only two of the four courses you listed are mine -- Friar's Head is also by Coore and Crenshaw. 

Barnbougle Dunes might be as good as any of them.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #295 on: November 26, 2013, 09:00:19 PM »
The second issue which we discussed is how the following courses would be ranked if they all were built at the same time and opened at the same time: Ballyneal, Friar's Head, Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes.  I would suggest that there is no obvious first or last place finisher which certainly should be more than flattering to Tom Doak. There are other courses out there which could be included in the group but the point is that these 3 Doak courses are arguably right up there with what has been recognized as the best of the modern courses.

Jerry:

Thanks for your comments on Ballyneal, however, only two of the four courses you listed are mine -- Friar's Head is also by Coore and Crenshaw. 

Barnbougle Dunes might be as good as any of them.

But Rock Creek is still the best.















Unfortunately I have not and probably will not ever play Barnbougle Dunes.
Mr Hurricane

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #296 on: November 26, 2013, 09:34:43 PM »

Unfortunately I have not and probably will not ever play Barnbougle Dunes.


Make an effort to change that, Jim, as the travel isn't too bad and it's a cool adventure getting there from Melbourne.  For as many great courses as you've played, it would be a shame if you missed out on Australia.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #297 on: November 26, 2013, 10:24:33 PM »
Jim: Get over it - the Hurricanes aren't the best and neither is Rock Creek - it is Ballyneal!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #298 on: November 27, 2013, 10:08:21 AM »

Unfortunately I have not and probably will not ever play Barnbougle Dunes.


Make an effort to change that, Jim, as the travel isn't too bad and it's a cool adventure getting there from Melbourne.  For as many great courses as you've played, it would be a shame if you missed out on Australia.

Three little kids (not that little but 8, 12 ,14) with activities, private school, college, etc...make it difficult to travel to Australia/New Zealand and play what I want to play. Royal Melbourne and Barnbougle are the top 2 courses I want to see. Trust me, if I had an invitation to play them or Augusta National, I would go there if the timing worked in a heart beat.
Mr Hurricane

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rank My Courses
« Reply #299 on: November 27, 2013, 10:09:52 AM »
Jim: Get over it - the Hurricanes aren't the best and neither is Rock Creek - it is Ballyneal!

I agree my Canes are not the best, but Rock Creek is. I will continue with Shivas' fight.
Mr Hurricane