[Mark Arata]

Apache Stronghold is still my favorite,

Apache
Pac Dunes
Sebonack
Old Mac
Beechtree (NLE)
Streamsong
Atlantic City *
Stone Eagle
Sheep Ranch*
Tumble Creek
Lost Dunes
Charlotte

(forgot Atlantic City and Sheep Ranch)

Mark:

I found it really interesting that you put all of the projects Jim Urbina worked on (except Charlotte) at the top of your list.  Nobody else has had a separation like that in favor of any of my associates in particular.  Interesting, though I don't know what to make of it.

Do you hit a power fade off the tee?

Whenever I am not hitting snap hooks, snipes, blocks or dead shanks, then sure, I prefer the power fade......

Actually I might be one of the worst players on this board. My ability to play the game or the shots I can or in my case cant hit have nothing to do with my liking a course. I played Apache when the course was in good condition and I just thought it was spectacular. I don't think there is much more than an eyelash between any of the courses in my ranking of your courses other than Charlotte, which is my least liked of the ones of yours I have played...

[Tom_Doak]

Whenever I am not hitting snap hooks, snipes, blocks or dead shanks, then sure, I prefer the power fade......

Actually I might be one of the worst players on this board. My ability to play the game or the shots I can or in my case cant hit have nothing to do with my liking a course. I played Apache when the course was in good condition and I just thought it was spectacular. I don't think there is much more than an eyelash between any of the courses in my ranking of your courses other than Charlotte, which is my least liked of the ones of yours I have played...

Mark:

I just asked because most architects generally favor one shot or another in their work.  Mine is a little different because though I grew up playing a fade, there were a few years in there where I hit nothing but hooks; so I can visualize both, but the results tend to lean one way or the other depending on where my game was at the time, and also on the tendency of my lead associate.  Jim hit the power fade, so I just wondered whether you did, too.

[Jud_T]

Tommy,

Obviously there's a double-edged sword anytime someone like Tom posts here or comes out with a Confidential Guide etc.  Frankly, I'm not sure he needs the marketing at this point, or that this would even be an efficient way to do it.  You sound a bit like I do when the subject of the Black Keys comes up.  Yeah they can still rock when they're in the mood, but it'll never be the same as when I saw 'em in a dive bar with 30 people and we were calling out requests.  I find it interesting to see the relative rankings, even if we're all biased or influenced in one way or another.  In particular, I think Old Mac is, if anything, underrated;  1)  I'm sure Tom finds it hard to give it full credit as one of his all-time best since it's in part a tribute course that was a collaboration and 2) many here probably think it's tricked up and don't like the fact that they can't score well on it even though it's seemingly benign (particularly in the summer winds at the speeds they've been running those greens).  But it's really f&^*ing good IMO and the one course I'm dying to get back and play the most.

[Mark Arata]

I wish I had any form of a consistent shot, other than the aforementioned shank/block/snipe

All of the courses are pretty forgiving off the tee, which is helpful, I would rather play the approaches from the correct positions, but sometimes there is a great deal of fun to be had in trying to figure out what to do next, or how to use the slopes to make something out of nothing.

For the record, I think my best scores were at pac dunes/old mac/accc/beachtree, and my worst was by far at Tumble Creek....I played streamsong blue 3 times to the red 1 and I liked it more and more each time around. I think at first look the Red jumps out at you a bit more, but upon more plays, the blue starts to shine through....

[Ted Sturges]

Here goes:

1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Old MacDonald
3.  Rock Creek
4.  Streamsong Blue
5.  Lost Dunes (In my opinion, this course would be World Top 100 if it were maintained firm and fast)
6.  High Pointe (NLE)
7.  Beechtree (NLE)
8.  Apache Stronghold
9.  Stonewall (1st)
10.  Wilderness Valley
11.  Quail Crossing
12.  Legends-Heathlands

TS

[Lou_Duran]

I find it interesting that Pac Dunes seems to be universally preferred to Old Mac.  Might its degree of difficulty (resistance to scoring) mostly offset its design variety and greater range of options relative to its older sister?  Or is the eye-candy at PD, despite our protestations to the contrary, winning the day?

[David Davis]

1. Pacific Dunes (by a large margin)
2. Ballyneal
3. Old Mac
4. Dismal (I'm allergic to horse flies ;-)
5. yet to be decided or played.

[Tom_Doak]

Responding to Tommy N:

Aside from your personal attack, and telling me what I should do, what "opinion" have you added to this thread, or to any other here in the past five years?

If I had in mind that I should "instruct" people on architecture, that would be much more arrogant than what you accuse me of.

I agree with you that rankings have corrupted the whole process of talking about golf course architecture.  There are so many damned rankings and it is all anyone talks about when one comes out; and GOLFWEEK invents another one every other week.  They drive the business; and nowadays I'm on the receiving end of that.  Where we don't agree, is that the only way to get past that fact is to deconstruct the rankings somehow and pick through what really makes them tick until we expose them for what they are.

The only reason I brought Sand Hills into the discussion is because pretty much everyone [including me] agrees that it is the most exceptional course built in the modern era, and yet, due to the nature of rankings, it cannot get past 7th or 8th in any of the rankings except when you discount all the older courses.  Why is that?  No editor is holding it back; no definition of a great course is holding it back.  The panelists are holding it back, though their own weird behavior patterns that have everything to do with how these lists turn out.  And just using ONE example from someone else's work sent you into orbit.  So I stuck with a discussion of my own courses, even at the price of being told I've thrown away my ideals by an old friend.  When was the last time you saw one of my courses, by the way?  Or when's the last time we talked?  I'm still working pretty hard at this thing, but I'm doing better at not letting it consume me.

The most telling thing about this thread is what most people haven't done, or at least haven't shared -- how they made their decisions.  Not many have openly compared one course to another much; they just have a snap judgment about where they rank.  And that's how nearly all the rankings are done.  One of the young men who worked on Streamsong told me he tried to do the hole-by-hole match play comparison between it and Dismal River, which he'd just played, and that Streamsong came out slightly ahead, even though he'd ranked Dismal a bit higher by his snap judgment ... and he's the only guy in nearly 200 posts to have made such an in-depth comparison of any two courses.  In fact, even I had forgotten to try and think about it that way, as I would for other people's courses.

[Tom_Doak]

I find it interesting that Pac Dunes seems to be universally preferred to Old Mac.  Might its degree of difficulty (resistance to scoring) mostly offset its design variety and greater range of options relative to its older sister?  Or is the eye-candy at PD, despite our protestations to the contrary, winning the day?

Do you really think Old Macdonald has more design variety than Pacific Dunes?

I have always thought the strength of Pacific Dunes was its variety of settings, variety of green sizes, variety of hole lengths, variety of hazards, etc.

[Tom_Doak]

But, it's true that a fair % of our new clients come to the game with some sort of rankings goal in mind.  Sad, but true.  That's the point of this thread, I'm trying to understand what to tell them.

How about "we'll build you the best course humanly possible given the property and your constraints.  If that ain't good enough, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

Alternatively "I'm #5 on the all-time list of Golf Architects.  If you'd prefer to hire one of the top 4, feel free"

By the way, Jud, that was the best chuckle I've had in a while, and it turned out I needed one here.

[Eric Smith]

The most telling thing about this thread is what most people haven't done, or at least haven't shared -- how they made their decisions. Not many have openly compared one course to another much; they just have a snap judgment about where they rank.

??

To vote, all you have to do is list the courses of mine that you've played, in order of merit, according to your own judgment.  [Please use your own judgment, and don't worry about what the rankings say, or what anyone else says.]  You need not try to place them against others' courses or an arbitrary top-100 scale; just ranking them against each other is fine.

Tom:

If you had asked for this up front, surely most would've obliged.

[Phil McDade]

The best thing about this thread is the reminder that we no longer have to listen to Shivas croon incessantly about Rock Creek.

Funny -- I was thinking what this thread exactly needs is Shivas weighing in on Rock Creek. May he RIP.

[Carl Nichols]

The most telling thing about this thread is what most people haven't done, or at least haven't shared -- how they made their decisions. Not many have openly compared one course to another much; they just have a snap judgment about where they rank.

??

To vote, all you have to do is list the courses of mine that you've played, in order of merit, according to your own judgment.  [Please use your own judgment, and don't worry about what the rankings say, or what anyone else says.]  You need not try to place them against others' courses or an arbitrary top-100 scale; just ranking them against each other is fine.

Tom:

If you had asked for this up front, surely most would've obliged.

Indeed, I thought he almost wasn't looking for the reasoning behind the votes:  "To vote, all you have to do is list the courses of mine that you've played, in order of merit, according to your own judgment."

[Tom_Doak]

The most telling thing about this thread is what most people haven't done, or at least haven't shared -- how they made their decisions. Not many have openly compared one course to another much; they just have a snap judgment about where they rank.

??

To vote, all you have to do is list the courses of mine that you've played, in order of merit, according to your own judgment.  [Please use your own judgment, and don't worry about what the rankings say, or what anyone else says.]  You need not try to place them against others' courses or an arbitrary top-100 scale; just ranking them against each other is fine.

Tom:

If you had asked for this up front, surely most would've obliged.

Indeed, I thought he almost wasn't looking for the reasoning behind the votes:  "To vote, all you have to do is list the courses of mine that you've played, in order of merit, according to your own judgment."

Maybe I did poison the well.  I didn't mean to, I just didn't want everyone to feel like they had to defend their choices.  Which is not the same as saying they shouldn't think about the choices they were making.

[Alex Miller]

Pacific Dunes
Ballyneal

Old Mac
Stone Eagle
Sebonack (probably less Tom's fault than it is Jack's that this is at the bottom, at least from my uninformed viewpoint)

Ok, I'd like to help add constructive discussion to this thread, so here are the justifications for my rankings, despite the shortness of this list.

Pac Dunes is on top, in the same tier as Balyneal. Both are great experiences, and I actually think that Ballyneal might provide more interesting architectural features and interest in the greens and the way it moves through the landforms. It's a wonderful place to be and no doubt has so many options that it is a pleasure to play over and over. Pacific Dunes as an experience is more special. The routing, as has been discussed many times, is amazing and really ebbs and flows in a way that few courses do. It feels like the course has been there for a long long time, and that everything is as it should be and could never have been built any other way. It's more subtle than Ballyneal, bu I think each serves their purpose well as one is part of a resort with multiple courses and one stands on its own.

The next 3 are all close together for me, and the order could change very easily over time. I mentioned what held Sebonack back for me, but I'm sure it's just a personal preferance. I'd like to play it again in better weather without wet U.S. Open length rough (though I mostly avoided it).

Old Mac is ahead of Stone Eagle (again, by a nose), but I have no doubt that Stone Eagle is the more impressive build. Amazing that such a good course could be built on that severe a site. Even more amazing is the playability despite the limited grassed acreage. Old Mac on the other hand has as much room as any course I've played, and some amazing experiences in the round, but I think the course does not work as well in the winter wind as Pacific Dunes. I'd like to play it again in the north wind because I'd imagine it plays great and would be in its own middle tier.

Favorite (and least) holes at each:
PD: 12 (15)
BN: 7 (11)
OM: 7 (9)
SE: 8 (14)
SB: 10 (you know which one  )

[Richard Choi]

Tom, all you had to do was ask...

I put Pacific Dunes at the top of my list (it is at the top of ALL the courses that I have ever played) over Old Mac because I like my golf courses like how I like operas, lots of drama with soaring emotional arias that brings the house down. Strategically and fun factor wise, I think both are equal. But I just love how Pacific Dunes kicks it up a notch with its dramatic vistas. I know that is not always kosher around it, but I get inspired by it.

I put both of them above Ballyneal even though it has even more drama (elevation changes) and diabolical greens (which I am sucker for) because of the similar reasons comparing PD to OM (dramatic surroudings, you can't beat the coast) and the fact that I feel like at least some of the my fondness for Ballyneal is due to everything surrounding the course (lodging, feeling like you own the course when you stay there, etc.)

All three are significantly better than Streamsong Blue in my opinion. The highs are not quite high at Streamsong compared to the top three. There are many solid holes at Blue, but very few of them blew me over. The top three are like Wagner or Puccini operas, full of emotion and soaring arias inspiring tears and laughter. Streamsong Blue is more like Verdi, still beautiful, just a bit more reserved.

Tumble Creek's high points are great, but the valley holes are quite forgettable. It is not in the same league as the others.

While CommonGround is a revelation on what an affordable, accessible muni can be, the land that it sits on does not have the emotional impact that others deliver.  

[DMoriarty]

The best thing about this thread is the reminder that we no longer have to listen to Shivas croon incessantly about Rock Creek.

Have you played Rock Creek, John?  My guess is not.  If you have then you must realize that Shivas made some excellent points.

As for his "crooning incessantly" . . . maybe so, but at this point comments such as his might provide a refreshing counterpoint to the shameless shilling by some of the Dismal crowd.

[Michael Dugger]

 Hell, they may have even hired some of us to doodle on their scorecards.

Or perhaps design the flags for their golf club???

Talk about pandering for attention...

[Lou_Duran]

I find it interesting that Pac Dunes seems to be universally preferred to Old Mac.  Might its degree of difficulty (resistance to scoring) mostly offset its design variety and greater range of options relative to its older sister?  Or is the eye-candy at PD, despite our protestations to the contrary, winning the day?

Do you really think Old Macdonald has more design variety than Pacific Dunes?

I have always thought the strength of Pacific Dunes was its variety of settings, variety of green sizes, variety of hole lengths, variety of hazards, etc.

I've played PD a half dozen times; Old Mac twice on the same day, once from the second set of tees, then from the backs.  My impressions from this limited experience are that OM is more difficult, and offers more variety and options in terms of how it plays for me.  I will reflect more on your perspectives on variety, particularly on green sizes, given that I tend to think that large greens with considerable internal contouring in effect can play much smaller (even relative to small greens surrounded by closely-mown areas).  

[John Kavanaugh]

The best thing about this thread is the reminder that we no longer have to listen to Shivas croon incessantly about Rock Creek.

Have you played Rock Creek, John?  My guess is not.  If you have then you must realize that Shivas made some excellent points.

As for his "crooning incessantly" . . . maybe so, but at this point comments such as his might provide a refreshing counterpoint to the shameless shilling by some of the Dismal crowd.

I was letting my buddy know he isn't forgotten. I paid $700 in a charity auction to play RC simply because I believe it to be a great course. Sadly I never made it up to play.

[PCCraig]

The best thing about this thread is the reminder that we no longer have to listen to Shivas croon incessantly about Rock Creek.

Funny -- I was thinking what this thread exactly needs is Shivas weighing in on Rock Creek. May he RIP.

Dave got booted?

[Stephen Davis]

The best thing about this thread is the reminder that we no longer have to listen to Shivas croon incessantly about Rock Creek.

Funny -- I was thinking what this thread exactly needs is Shivas weighing in on Rock Creek. May he RIP.

Dave got booted?

You mean Evad?

[John Kavanaugh]

The best thing about this thread is the reminder that we no longer have to listen to Shivas croon incessantly about Rock Creek.

Funny -- I was thinking what this thread exactly needs is Shivas weighing in on Rock Creek. May he RIP.

Dave got booted?

Worse. It's like he never existed. Do a search.

[Eric Smith]

Maybe I did poison the well.  I didn't mean to, I just didn't want everyone to feel like they had to defend their choices.  Which is not the same as saying they shouldn't think about the choices they were making.

Tom:

That's enough for me to share. Please note: I am not a rater and may love golf courses as much for their beauty as I do their architectural merit.

It is no surprise that you and your team are making a living building golf courses that capture the imagination of golfers who appreciate both.


1. Sebonack

I agree with my Irish pal, Mr. Sheehy - surely Sebonack plays the most like a links of any course I've played in America with turf conditions rivaling the Old Course and N. Berwick. Also the texture of the golf course, the hills, the pockets of trees, linksland rumple, the bay and THE PONDS!! (mark it down a notch, Jensen! ) combine to provide as diverse a golf course as any I've played by you guys. The par 4 second really is wonderful. A visual feast. I think it would make a beautiful subject for a Josh C.F. Smith painting [if it hasn't already.] The stand out par 5's (8 & 18 in particular) help in elevating the course to the top of the class. Right now I have it second only to St Andrews in my list of favorite golf courses.

2. Dismal River

A dream come true for me. As a member I was happy to participate in the vote to fund the second course and the assessments that followed. I am then surely biased with this vote. But an amazing [and again, diverse] golf course on terrain that was suited for this purpose. Truly beautiful to be on and to play. The short 4's are card wreckers for the uninitiated. The par 3's - a classic set. All completely different than the other. The finish is your best I've seen. Greens and surrounds are scary fun. Short game is tested similar to TOC and other great links courses. I played terrible when I was last there, but the speed of the course made it 10X better than it was in the early phases of grow-in I've been fortunate to play.

3. Renaissance (before)

The surprise of my trip to Scotland last summer. Fit the land so well and the land here is the star. Variety like few others. Even the original starting three. I loved those holes. Restrained architecture, but memorable features, like the first tee shot and the MacKenzie-esque deception with the native appearing to be all the way up the left hand side to the forest. When you arrive to the fairway and say 'holy sh*t I had no idea' - I think is a neat way for the course to introduce itself. Playing along the firth in a 'freshening' breeze is as spiritual a setting in golf as I know. Haven't played Muirfield, but I'll bet they don't have views like Ren Club. I played it on the same day as North Berwick, which I absolutely loved, but if I am being honest I believe Ren Club to be the better course. But it is close. As are all of the greats imo.


4. Ballyneal

Soul stirring golf. I love playing in the dunes and I love the ground game emphasis at Ballyneal. Some real stand out holes. 7,8, 12, 16, 17 are my favorites. The place fits its environment maybe better than any of the courses listed. I don't love the turf on the greens but they are in the midst of changing them, which I'm certain will only make the golf course better. The place oozes a UK links like kind of style and I very much look forward to my next visit.

5. Streamsong

Played one round there in the Ren Cup. Afterward in Jim Colton's thread on SS, I chose more holes as favorites from the Red, yet rank the Blue higher. All I can say to that is the Blue was more player friendly at the tee and I'd rather a course challenge me in other places besides there. Case in point - the first hole, which is my kind of start! I also didn't mind the walk back on the par 3. I don't bother with criticisms like that as long as the golf is good. The hole is exceptional with an amazing green. Man that one is wild. Putting from up top down into the water still haunts me!

The 9th was my favorite par 5 on the entire property. I liked the tee shot from further back and I liked the width. I cannot deny I have a thing for the occasional tree on a links type golf course so this could be why the second shot (or third) into this green is so attractive to me. A real gambler's sort of a hole which is always fun to play.

I've played Seminole on a perfect day in May and though it was certainly very cool, but I rank it behind Blue. And Red. They are Florida's best.

[Jim Franklin]

I did a hole-by-hole match between Sand Hills and Rock Creek that had Rock Creek winning 2&1. That is why I favor RCCC to SH and why I have RCCC as my #1 RGD course.

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